Lance May 10th, 2007

I find that my orientation as a gay man usually tests the limits of the 'radical grace' theology in Christian circles.

But I'm also aware that at my stoning, as Jesus is bending down to write something on the ground, 'the old white guy' would be the first one to walk away.

Being gay, I've had to dig deep to explain the two main differences in attitude among Christians about gays.

I find a satisfactory answer in the allegory of Hagar and Sarah (Galatians 4:21-31)

"The story of Hagar and Sarah is symbolic and has a deeper meaning than first appears. The two women represent two covenants: Hagar the covenant of the law and Sarah the covenant of grace. The covenant of the law given at Mt Sinai produced slavery; thus Hagar, a slave girl, fitted that covenant. Hagar represents Jerusalem (vs 25), the center for unsaved Israelites who were still seeking to obtain righteousness by keeping the law. For Paul to link unbelieving Israelites with Hagar rather than with Sarah was a stinging characterization. True believers are born of God and faith in Jesus (vs 28) but they will often be persecuted and mocked by those born of the flesh, just as Ishmael mocked Isaac (vs 29). Paul goes on to encourage the Galatians to listen to the verdict of scripture (vs 30) that it is impossible to inherit God's blessings on the basis of human merit or effort; furthermore, those who trust in Christ have no connection with the law as a means of obtaining divine favor. They (and we) are the children of Sarah, the free woman."

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Bible/Gal7A.htm

I think the passage in Galatians makes it clear that there will ALWAYS be this type of division in the church, because there will always be sons of the law, and sons of faith…worshipping side by side.

What's important, is that the sons of faith need not be intimidated by the sons of the law, into watering down the good news of the message of justification through grace and faith.

Sons of the Promise will never convince the sons of the law to see it their way…and sons of the law will never get the 'grace' thing..(except for themselves).

We understand that grace and mercy by their very nature are undeserved.

Ummm…at this point though, I will stop before I break out into three rounds of "If I had a hammer."

I've been listening to Steve Brown etc for more than a year….and am proud to be the show's token gay Aussie listener.

Lance White
Perth, Australia.

Steve Brown May 10th, 2007

Hi Gay Friend,

Great comments! You "get it" and so few do.

I used to wonder why so few did. Your comments on Galatians are quite sobering. You may be right.

Yeah! The sons of faith need not be intimidated by the sons of the law into watering down the good news of the message of grace. It's always a temptation for me. A friend of mine says that anybody who makes their living at religion is going to lose one or the other. I have this unfortunate habit of eating and sometimes water the message down and visit stonings.

I repent.

Hey, the best thing you said was that when they gathered to stone you the "Old White Guy" would be the first one to walk away when Jesus talked about the sinless one throwing the first stone. I hope I wouldn't be there. But, if I was, I wouldn't stay long if Jesus made that kind of comment.

He always messes up a good stoning.

Geoduck Joe May 10th, 2007

I'm sure there are tons of reasons teaching a reformational view of grace is infuriating. It strikes me that a big one has nothing to do with who you're letting in to the party (i.e. folks like Lance or me), but rather that you're lowering the standards. You're taking away the motivational speech factor of preaching, which makes the thirty-minute life application sermons much more difficult.

The Law is a tricky thing, but it seems that most of us secretly believe it can be kept – at least mostly. The forgiveness of Jesus lets us start over when it isn't kept. And that's what gets preached, "Try your hardest because the more you try the less you'll sin, and if you sin remember you're not Catholic and can be forgiven… just don't do it again."

The doctrine of grace requires us to really get the Law – this impossible statement by God – a truly extreme and despair-inducing bunch of ideas that run contrary to us. I've heard, too many times, "God wouldn't require us to do something we can't do." Really?

So when it comes to "Be holy as I am holy," people think it's possible apart from imputed righteousness. People think it's a command from God and God wouldn't say it if we couldn't do it. So rather than drive us to despair, which then drives us to the cross, it drives us to work harder, to read more books, to attend more conferences and retreats. No one wants to be the guy to say, "Hey, I can't do it," because he thinks everyone else will say, "Then you may really want to consider whether you're actually a Christian. Read this book, fast and pray harder."

Steve, I think the people who hate the preaching of grace are primarily those who don't think the Law is impossible. Grace is perceived as telling someone to give up early. Too often it's viewed only as a safety net, so when someone comes along and says, "Jump up and down on the highwire," "Run back and forth on the highwire," they say, "Careful up there. I'm sure the net works, but no sense pushing your luck."

Steve Brown May 11th, 2007

Really great comments, Joe.

Lewis once said that the only people who think that "being good" is easy are people who haven't tried very hard to be good.

I would go a lot further than Lewis, I think, by saying that people who think that being good is even possible, are people who are either living in denial or haven't tried. And not only that, I would add that those who think that living by the law is possible don't understand the extreme and impossible demands that are made by the law.

Someone who is "antinomian" (and I'm often accused of being that) says that the law doesn't matter. I, on the other hand, think that it not only matters but that the law of God should be taught with clarity and power. It is only there that we discover who we are, come to the end of ourselves and run to Jesus who may or may not make us better but who will always accept us and give us his righteousness.

There is an old sermon illustration about a man who is standing before Peter who, to the man's shock, says, "You have to have earned a thousands points to be admitted to heaven. What have you done to earn your points and to be admitted?"

"I never heard that before: but I think I'll do alright. I was raised in a Christian home and have always been a part of the church. I have Sunday school attendance pins that go down the floor. I went to a Christian college and graduate school and have probably led hundreds of people to Christ. I'm now an elder in my church and am quite supportive of what the people of God do. I have three children, two boys and a girl. My oldest boy is a pastor and the younger is a staff person with a ministry to the poor. My daughter and her husband are missionaries. I have always tithed and am now giving well over 30% of my income to God's work. I'm a bank executive and work with the poor in our city trying to get low income mortgages. I also:

: uh, how am I doing?"

"That's one point," Peter said. "What else have you done?"

"Good God!" the man said in frustration. "Have mercy."

"You've got it!" Peter said. "Welcome home."

Teach the law. The Psalmist called it "perfect."

Teach it until people are sick of it and cry out for mercy.

Mercy always "comes running."

kantian May 11th, 2007

I am a Catholic and I see some of the same problems in our community. I see it emerging in the judgmental attitudes of my fellow parishioners. They know they are not supposed to be judgmental but they don't know how to stop being judgmental. Behind that is the belief that people ought to be good and behave well in order to be good Catholics. And part of that belief is very likely the assumption that our goodness is something we have to bring about by our actions and that means implicitly we have to work for our salvation, or at least for our worthiness. So, I think this problem is a very universal problem.
I have also attended a Methodist church where the preaching was very moralistic. And behind that I got the message that I just needed to do the right things and I would be worthy. I found the people in that church to be very judgmental too!
It seems like there is a close association between believing one must earn one's salvation and being a self-righteous person who is very judgmental. So, no wonder Steve gets so much grief. He is challenging the people who are most self-righteous and judgmental!
What I have come to see though is that their belief that they must earn their salvation is not a conscious belief. It is so pervasive that it is basically unconscious. If you would ask them if you can earn salvation they would deny they believe it. But then that is exactly how they act.
So the question is: how can these people really come to see the gift of grace. How can they stop being so judgmental and driven to earn their salvation? They even see their judgmental attitudes as something they must work to get better at not doing!
I think Steve's emphasis on "running to Jesus" is so good because it says in a very literal and pictoral way that we need to establish a relationship with Jesus. It tells me to have a friendship with Jesus. Friends don't tell each other what to do, they just enjoy each others company. They just enjoy being with each other and accept each other as they are. They don't judge each other (although sometimes they exhort each other). But the greatest thing they do is spend time with each other – and that is not just in prayer but also in being with fellow human beings as a friend who cares. Friends see each other from the inside, not from the outside. They understand why they do what they do and as a result don't need to judge the other from the outside. If more people understood Steve from the inside they would know that his heart is pure and one of love and that he wants so much for people to become free and experience God's love and grace for themselves in a real and experiential way.
Someday maybe they will. I hope so. God bless.

Dave June 5th, 2007

A Tale of Two Grandsons

On alternating Saturdays Bill and Fred take their Grandmother to lunch at her favorite restaurant. Each one opens the car door for her, seats her at the table, asks about her week, listens attentively to her stories, makes sure she gets what she wants and spends the afternoon with her.
Bill is interested in his Grandmother. He takes her to lunch out of this interest. He fixes things about her house out of this interest. He checks in with her often out of this interest.
Fred is interested in his Grandmother. He takes her to lunch out of this interest. He fixes things about her house out of this interest. He checks in with her often out of this interest.
What is the difference? In their actions, not a thing, in their motives, everything. Bill loves his Grammy, she is dear to his heart, he will be heartbroken when she passes. Fred loves his Grandmother's money, it is dear to his heart, he will act heartbroken when she passes.

Those who live under grace live in God's love and mercy. Those who live under the law live in fear of the law and its causal judgement. Yet, both obey the God's law as best they can.

One might wish to consider that God is more perceptive than anyone's Grandmother.

Vicki September 7th, 2007

I have thought about writing for several years now to the ministry, but have never taken the time. Anyway, the first time I heard Steve say that the whole foundation of his ministry is, "God is not mad at you," I was amazed. That was at least eight years ago, and I'm still amazed. It hasn't quite sunken(?) in, but it's getting there!

I read 90 Minutes In Heaven about three years ago, two months after my youngest son was killed in a motorcycle accident. Afterwards, I wondered if it were all theologically accurate, then I thought, "I don't care." Either way, it was something that God used to comfort me to the core. I will always miss my son, and I love him deeply, but I know he's okay, that he feels warmly cared for, and that I will see him again and we will have a lot to catch up on.

Thanks so much for your ministry.

Brian March 8th, 2008

Subject: Concerned Wife
A pastor asked if anyone in the congregation would
like to express Praise for answered prayers. A lady
stood and walked to the podium. She said, 'I have a
Praise.

Two months ago, my husband, Jim, had a terrible
bicycle wreck and his scrotum was completely crushed.
The pain was excruciating and the doctors didn't know
if they could help him.'

You could hear an audible gasp from the men in the
congregation as they imagined the pain that poor Jim
experienced.

She continued, 'Jim was unable to hold me or the
children and every move caused him terrible pain. We
prayed as the doctors performed a delicate operation .
They were able to piece together the crushed remnants
of Jim's scrotum and wrap wire around it to hold it in
place.'

Again, the men in the Congregation squirmed
uncomfortably as they imagined the horrible surgery
performed on Jim.

She continued, 'Now, Jim is out of the hospital and
the doctor's say, with time, his scrotum should
recover completely.' All the men sighed with relief.

The pastor rose and tentatively asked if any one else
had anything to say. A man rose and walked slowly to
the podium.

He said, 'I'm Jim and I want to tell my wife, the word
is sternum.'

Alan Waggoner June 6th, 2008

Really good stuff Steve. I agree, grace is not "earned". We are justified simply by believing. Where sin abounds, grace superexceeds. Where we need to be careful is found in Paul's next verses.

"Should I sin more that grace will increase"
NO!

We should not embrace sin simply because of grace.

This is from a commentary by AE Knoch on part of Romans 5 & 6.
I think you'll enjoy it.

Romans 5:20 Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin so that it became an offense. Just as Adam's sin was against God's expressed command, and thus was a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head, so those under the law, by sinning against light, greatly increased the sinfulness of sin. Obedience to the law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced their power. But grace not only exceeds the effects of sin, but superexceeds the offenses of those under law, so that now, Grace has dethroned sin.

Romans 6:1 The absolute despotism of Grace is set forth in the startling suggestion that if we should be persisting in sin, grace would increase.. While the following argument is against persistence in sin, it confirms the sovereignty of grace. Let us not deny this marvelous doctrine. It will give us rich, exultant liberty, ridding us of the thralldom of Sin, and giving us power to avoid the very sins which unnatural logic supposes we would eagerly follow, now that there is no condemnation even if we should sin.

6:2 This and the following chapter are a digression, discussing the effects of the reign of grace, first without, and then with, law. Deliverance from sin comes, not through victory over it, but through death to it. It is useless to struggle against sin, or to fight with its practices. Rather we should acknowledge its force and reckon ourselves as dead through it and to it, yet alive in resurrection, where sin has no place.

6:3 The spiritual values of baptism into the death (Lu.12:50) and entombment with Christ, as shown in this chapter, indicate that spirit baptism is in view here (cf lCor.12:13). "For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body."

6:8 As we did not die, but Christ was crucified for us, we may reckon His death as ours, fully finishing our connection with sin, and His resurrection as ours also, for in Him we enjoy an unclouded life in the presence of God.

Romans 6:12-7:12

Conciliation–Individual

6:12 A realization of our death to sin and life in Christ will give us power to cope with sin, always remembering that sin cannot bring us into disfavor because of the superexceeding grace.

6:14 Law, as we shall see in the next chapter, not only cannot deliver from Sin, but actually forges the fetters of Sin, and makes Sin's bondage more cruel and galling.

6:15 The law said, "Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the Scroll of the Law, to do them." Grace says, Blessed are you, whatever you may do, for Christ has justified you and not one dare bring anything against you. The fallacious logic of the old humanity in immediately imagines that this gives license and encouragement to sin. But its actual effect is quite the opposite. Grace, not law, has power to deter us from sinning. No one who has an actual experience of grace, reasons that because there is immunity, therefore he will sin. The offender against law flies in the face of law. Its austere threats do not hinder him. But the offender against grace feels the heinousness of his offense and flies from it.

Dennis007 July 5th, 2008

I am new here, but I don't understand why nobody has warned Lance! Lance forgot to mention the rest of the story! Jesus said to her "go and sin no more!" I believe that she was converted — that she stopped her adulterous lifestyle and became a faithful follower of Jesus! Jesus says to Lance, "go and sin no more!"

This Verse is for Steve:
Ezek 3:18-19 NKJV
"18When I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul."

Now I have a verse for Lance!
1 Cor 6:9-11 NKJV
9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Dear Lance, — Have you been converted? Have you been washed? Have you been sanctified? I want to see you in the Kingdom of God!

Are there any who read this blog, and who would be willing to pray for the conversion of Lance?

The best evidence of the power of the gospel is a changed life! I will pray for you Lance!

Dennis007 July 6th, 2008

Freedom & Bondage

What kind of freedom would you like? Do you want a free sin? Is there such a thing as a free sin? Doesn't sin pay wages? What does Jesus say about it?

John 8:32-34 NKJV
32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 33They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, 'You will be made free'?" 34Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

According to Lance, "The covenant of the law given at Mt Sinai produced slavery."

But Jesus said that commiting sin (breaking the law) produced slavery. The children of Israel were slaves in Egypt! Jesus set them free! He wanted them to remain free, — so he gave them the perfect law of liberty!!!

James 1:25 NKJV
"25But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

Obedience to the law produces freedom and blessing. Breaking the law produces slavery. Jesus is not offering you freedom to sin, — He is offering you freedom FROM sin. There is no such thing as a free sin! Sin has a very HEAVY price tag! DEATH You can pay the price yourself, or you can confess and repent and ask Jesus to pay it for you!

The law simply describes the boundaries of freedom! Your freedom ends where the freedom of others begins. Every time you sin, — you rob someone else of their freedom.

Now for the "too-good-to-be-true" part. In order to better understand grace, let us see how it works!

Matt 14:28-29 NKJV
28And Peter answered Him and said, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." 29So He said, "Come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.

Here is a good demonstration of grace! Grace is the power that Jesus gives us to do what he commands. Jesus commanded Peter to do the impossible! Peter obeyed the command. Peter did his part. He got out of the boat and started walking. Jesus supplied the power for him to stay on top of the water. That was the Grace! — The power to stay up! If Peter stayed in the boat, — he never would have recieved the Grace! He had to do his part.

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "go and sin no more." He asked her to do the impossible! As she stepped out in faith, Jesus supplied the power. What ever Jesus commands you to do, you can do it, — even if it is impossible!!! —- Isn't that too-good-to-be-true!

Dennis007 July 6th, 2008

Please excuse me, — I thought that Steve was talking about freedom FROM sin, I didn't know that he was talking about freedom TO sin. I just discovered that Steve was teaching that you can knowingly and willfully sin and still go to heaven! Steve!! — Please tell me that I heard it wrong! — Steve, if that is what you are teaching, —- It smells like the smoke of poor lost souls rising up out of the Lake of Fire!

Just in case there are people who read this that think that they can live like the Devil and still go to heaven, — I have a Bible verse for you!

Heb 10:26-29 NKJV
"26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Some where, not too far from Jerusalem, hidden in a cave is a wooden box overlaid with Gold! Inside that box is Aaron's Rod that budded and a jar of manna, and two tables of stone, written on both sides by the finger of Jesus, — Ten Commandments. These Commandments are SO HOLY, that more than 50,000 people were struck dead for opening the box and looking inside!!! (1Samuel 6:19)

Open your Bibles to Exodos 20 and read what it says on those stones. They are not suggestions, — they are COMMANDMENTS!

We are in a war for the souls of men. I am a soldier in the Army of the Lord. Jesus is my General! I follow his commands!

PS I love you Steve, ——– but I think that I'm in the wrong web site.

Dennis007 July 7th, 2008

This is the kind of freedom taught in the scriptures. These quotes are from the NKJV!

1. "For I am the LORD your God. You shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy for, I am holy." Lev. 11:44

2. "Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You. Ps. 119:11.

3. "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins." Matt. 1:21.

4 "And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." John 8:11.

5. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin. that grace may abound" Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Rom. 6: 1,2.

6. "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin." Rom. 6:6,7.

7. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Rom. 6:11,12.

8. "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Rom. 6:14.

9. "And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Rom. 6:18.

10. "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Rom. 6:22.

11. "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that good and perfect will of God." Rom. 12:2.

12. "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful. who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." 1Cor. 10.13.

13. "casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. 2Cor. 10:5.

14. "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love," Eph. 1:4.

15. "That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish." Eph. 5:27.

16. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. Phil. 2:5.

17. "Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1Thess. 5:22,23.

18. "Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;" 2Pet. 3:14.

19. "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." IJohn 2:1.

20. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 1John 3:6.

21. "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9.

22. "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin but who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." 1John 5:18.

23. "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24.

24. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:2.

Brian July 7th, 2008

I knew there would be somebody else who agrees with me on this!! Great job double 00!! Check out my posts from the past few months….it'll save you some time…as well as your fingers!! Sounds like you define freedom the way I do….cheers mate!

MikeMcK July 8th, 2008

[quote]Please excuse me, — I thought that Steve was talking about freedom FROM sin, I didn't know that he was talking about freedom TO sin. I just discovered that Steve was teaching that you can knowingly and willfully sin and still go to heaven! [/quote]

You just figured this out? He's been doing that for years. "Three free sins" and "God's not mad at you", you know.

[quote]Steve!! — Please tell me that I heard it wrong! — Steve, if that is what you are teaching, — It smells like the smoke of poor lost souls rising up out of the Lake of Fire![/quote]

Sadly, the gospel he preaches is a false one, based on reassuring people that they're secure in their sins, rather than calling sinners to repent.

I'd love to see this guy have Todd Friel on his show but I don't believe he has the courage to invite him.

Dennis007 July 8th, 2008

Jesus had something to say about some people who were absollutely sure that God loves them, and they were saved!

Matt 7:21-23 NKJV
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Why did he say that he never knew these people? They were practicing lawlessness! They were not doing His Father's will! There will be a bunch of people who were calling Him Lord and living in sin and telling everyone God loves me and I'm saved! But Jesus will tell them "I died for you and gave you My Grace (the power to stop sinning) but you never used it! You kept on sinning as if I never died for you, — depart from me!"

What a farce to pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" — and not even attempt do do it! How is God's will done in Heaven? Did you ever stop to think about that? I'll bet you that in heaven, — it is no sooner said than done! In Heaven, as soon as they find out what God wants, — they drop everything and run to get it done! In Heaven nobody says "Do I HAVE TO?" They not only do what God says but they absolutely love to do it!

We don't have to wait for heaven! Jesus will give you the power to do His Father's will right now!

Dennis007 July 8th, 2008

What will happen to the Shepherds who misslead the flock?!

Jer 25:34-36 NKJV
34"Wail, shepherds, and cry!
Roll about in the ashes,
You leaders of the flock!
For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled;
You shall fall like a precious vessel.
35And the shepherds will have no way to flee,
Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.
36A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
And a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard.
For the LORD has plundered their pasture,

It is not very likely that the Shepherds will heed the warning. Maybe some of the sheep will take notice!

MikeMcK July 8th, 2008

[quote]Jesus had something to say about some people who were absollutely sure that God loves them, and they were saved!

Matt 7:21-23 NKJV
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Why did he say that he never knew these people? They were practicing lawlessness! They were not doing His Father's will! There will be a bunch of people who were calling Him Lord and living in sin and telling everyone God loves me and I'm saved! But Jesus will tell them "I died for you and gave you My Grace (the power to stop sinning) but you never used it! You kept on sinning as if I never died for you, — depart from me!"[/quote]

I wonder if they responded to Jesus "But there was this guy who told folksy stories instead of preaching Your word and He said that You weren't mad at us. He even said we could sin all we wanted to with no consequences".

Like I said, I'd love to see him have Todd Friel on his show but you know that would never happen.

G-Rock July 8th, 2008

"Like I said, I'd love to see him have Todd Friel on his show but you know that would never happen."

why don't you suggest it to the producer? i honestly don't think they would ignore your request… better yet, why not bring on kirk "growing pains" cameron?

MikeMcK July 8th, 2008

Yeah, by all means, let's get Kirk on. Kirk's emphasis is on evangelism, while Todd's is on theology so it would certainly be much better for Steve Brown to have Kirk on.

G-Rock July 8th, 2008

"Yeah, by all means, let's get Kirk on."

Mr. Producer, what'cha say?

"Show me that smile againnnnnn"

MikeMcK July 8th, 2008

Yeah, I think Todd might be a little too far out of Steve's league.

Let's go with Kirk. He's soft spoken enough not to embarass Steve by pointing out those pesky heresies.

Steve would probably not even get past the first "sin all you want to" before Todd buried him in scripture.

Fran2426 July 8th, 2008

Dennis, are you holy?  You never have sinned since your salvation? 

I believe that Steve was teaching that we are not to put so much emphasis on our actions and behavior that we ignore the work of the Spirit in our hearts.  When I meet a sinner, I don't point out their sins–I point them to a Savior, and I believe with all my heart that if the Spirit takes up residency in a believer's heart, that Spirit is big enough, powerful enough, to bring about every change that God desires in that individual.  Plus, that change may not be at all what I myself might choose for that person to clean up first. 

Jesus said that men look on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart, and since I can't see what God is seeing, I mind my own business as to their "look" and continue to encourage them to let God continue His good work in them.

As to others, I've listened to Steve Brown off and on for years and I've never heard him speak the "heresies" as you have accused.  He never said "Do whatever you want", he consistently says that we are not to hide in shame and fear from God and from the family of believers because we can't all be as "holy" as others' outward appearances would indicate.

Why are some of you so frightened by grace? Do you really think God doesn't deal with his own children, doesn't teach them, train them, grow them? Is that a job you feel you are supposed to do for Him, since He is so incompetent at it to your thinking?

When you constantly seem to indicate that believing God is simply not enough, you become a stumblingblock to the simple man and woman that knows they could never live the prettied-up lives you seem to claim. Many of these people are in awe of your knowledge, could never stand up to you on scripture-quoting, and when they see your outward perfection, they run away, thinking they failed God and He could never love them. The teachers of the law did the same thing in Jesus' day.

greg from canada July 9th, 2008

Well said Fran2426.

MikeMcK July 9th, 2008

[quote]When I meet a sinner, I don't point out their sins-I point them to a Savior,[/quote]

Why do they need a Savior?

Telling somebody that there's a Savior without telling them that there's something to be saved from (in this case, God's wrath because of their sin) is like a doctor telling somebody that he has to have surgury without telling them that they're sick.

[quote]As to others, I've listened to Steve Brown off and on for years and I've never heard him speak the "heresies" as you have accused.[/quote]

You've never heard "three free sins" or "God's not mad at you"?

[quote]Why are some of you so frightened by grace?[/quote]

We're not frightened by grace. We're offended (worse yet, God is offended) by lawlessness and liscentiousness redefined as "grace".

[quote]Is that a job you feel you are supposed to do for Him, since He is so incompetent at it to your thinking?[/quote]

Have you ever read the Bible?

[quote]When you constantly seem to indicate that believing God is simply not enough, you become a stumblingblock to the simple man and woman that knows they could never live the prettied-up lives you seem to claim. Many of these people are in awe of your knowledge, could never stand up to you on scripture-quoting, and when they see your outward perfection, they run away, thinking they failed God and He could never love them. The teachers of the law did the same thing in Jesus' day.[/quote]

Oh, good. It's been a whole five minutes since some emergent crackpot called me a Pharisee. I was getting disappointed.

Why is it that the people who constantly call those of us who believe the Bible "Pharisees" never seem to know who the Pharisees were, what they believed, or why Jesus rebuked them?

Fran2426 July 9th, 2008

Thanks, Greg.

Fran2426 July 9th, 2008

I apologize if this is a double post, my other one didn't seem to go through…

Mike, I didn't call you a Pharisee (dramatic much?). I compared some of the teachings here (again, not just you) to the teachers of the law. If you've studied, you know that's a much broader category than the Pharisees. Look it up.

I didn't call you a name at all, but you called me a crackpot. I didn't deserve that. I was just joining the discussion along with others. I don't usually personally attack those I disagree with.

Maybe you should step back from the boards a bit if you think this is all about you and your reputation and winning an argument and calling people names. Not an insult; just a suggestion.

By the way, I did check out the Three Free Sins email game. Okay, that *was* kinda creepy.

MikeMcK July 9th, 2008

Right. In other words, you can't answer my questions.

Fran2426 July 9th, 2008

*Why do they need a Savior?*
Surely, you know this.

*Have you heard the three…?*
I answered in part.

*Have you read the Bible?*
Yes.

Sure, I could further explain, but I won't since you only want an argument and your pride prohibits you from a respectful discussion.

Jesus said not to cast pearls of wisdom before, um, an audience incapable of understanding–they just turn and trample the speaker. I'll stick to that wisdom for now.

MikeMcK July 9th, 2008

That's cool. If you can't answer the questions I won't embarrass you any more by pointing that out.

Dennis007 July 10th, 2008

Greetings Fran —— Thankyou for noticing my post! I would like to respond to your questions.

I can't find in any of my posts a claim to be holy. If you could point that out I would be more than willing to make it right! May I point out what God said about Job?

Job 1:8 KJV
"8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

Please notice — The LORD said that Job was perfect!!!!!
Here is what a perfect man says about himself!

Job 9:20-21 KJV
"20If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

21Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life"

Just in case you didn't get it —– perfect people never make such a claim! Only perverse people do that.

Now about my salvation, — I have learned not to make such presumptious claims! I haven't endured to the end yet! I have a battle to fight and a victory to win. When I walk into the Pearly Gates down the streets of Gold and worship at the feet of Jesus, — THEN I will tell everyone "I'M SAVED!"

Matt 10:22 NKJV
"22And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

(Quote Fran2426) "I believe that Steve was teaching that we are not to put so much emphasis on our actions and behavior that we ignore the work of the Spirit in our hearts."

The story of the fall and redemption is about behavior! The Flood was about behavior! Sodom and Gomorrah and the fire and brimstone was about behavior! The 40 years in the wilderness was about behavior! The Babylonian captivity was about behavior! The Sermon on the Mount was about behavior! Most of Jesus' parables were about behavior! The Judgement will be about behavior!

My faith is based on the Word of God.

Fran — What is the basis of your faith? Steve Brown???

Keith July 10th, 2008

Im not here to condemn any one,Steve,Lance or anyone else. But the Old Covenant is done away, it was fullfilled in Christ. The only commandments that Christians are obliged to obey are those in the New Covenant. Jesus showed us that no man is to judge another because we all sin. Thats why Jesus said "Let the one without sin cast the first stone.God and Jesus is our judge. Yes we are suppose to lead people to Christ, but through our examples and by telling people about Jesus, not by condemning people or judging them. True we are to show people from the Bible what Christ and God considers sinful, then that person is suppose to repent and be baptised, if they believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. And then that person is to strive not to sin anymore.

God Bless!

Keith July 10th, 2008

Oh I forget to add, before people start judging Steve and says he condons sin, please read some of the other blogs and stuff he has written and said..

please see this…

http://stevebrownetc.com/podcasts/steve-brown-etc/homosexuals-and-the-church/

KeithL July 10th, 2008

Galatians 5:19 "fornication" comes from the Greek porneia and means any kind of sexual conduct outside marriage(this would include homosexuality) and moicheia which means "adultry". Both are sins we shouldnt practice once we become Christian.

Luk 9:62 "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." -In other words Christians are to leave their past sinful lives behind them and not return to do things again.

1Cr 6:9 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites,
1Cr 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."-
"fornicators" comes from the Greek pornos and can mean- 1)a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire ,2) a male prostitute , 3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse.
"homosexuals" comes from the Greek malakos and can mean- effeminate 1) of a catamite 2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man 3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness 4) of a male prostitute.

Romans 1:26-27 speaks of both men and women chosing to be with the same sex ,rather than the way God intended it to be.

Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old. 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I know this speaks of lusting after a woman, but the general idea applies to any sexual thoughts as being adultery,as thinking of any person other than ones wife is sin.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

As I have said before, Im not here to judge anyone, I have my sins as we all do. But a Christian is to leave those things behind and not practice them. If we slip God Forgives, but they cant be regular practices.

God Bless!

MikeMcK July 10th, 2008

[quote]Jesus showed us that no man is to judge another because we all sin.[/quote]

Actually, there are many instances where Jesus commands us to judge.

Keith July 10th, 2008

Thats true MikeMcK, But Jesus meant that we are to set things straight based on sound Biblical teachings, it doesnt mean that we should place judgement on someone, because we dont know their heart,Only God does. We are to tell others what the Bible says about sin, but we are never to down people or demean them. Some people strike out and attack people ,when they themselves have sins, and thats not Christian Love. Jesus never attacks the sinners, only the self righteous.

God Bless!

Brian July 10th, 2008

Jesus forbids us to judge others by another standard than His. Ie….Judge with "righteous" judgment…ie measured according to scripture, not "self" righteousness. The problem here, is that many on this board lump all of those who are in support of being biblically obedient to Christs (and Paul's) call to "be Christlike" or to "remove the wicked one from among you" as being "self righteous"…..when that is absolutely not the case.

To accept those by extending "neo-grace (fake grace) who embrace heresy, who sin all the more so that grace can abound, and live unconcerned and in denial that God's law does in fact have a place in their lives…..is a heresy in and of itself! This short sheets the rug out from under the call to live a Holy and obedient life with sacrifice! Steve's teaching is reactionary…..throwing grace at people wrecklessly without a call to repentance…..even encouraging people to sin more……it's a "BS" in theology alright, only appealing to the couch patoato christian who wants to live like an unbeliever, but have "grace" jfilled freedom to sin without ticking off God!

Well, got news for ya……God hates sin, and you can absolutely piss Him off with your wreckless sinful "freedom". The Bible never defines freedom this way….only Steve and his "believers" do……just b/c you are no longer under "condemnation"……(perhaps that may not be true either if you love to sin more than you love God, but that's another issue) doesn't mean your sin is free! People need accountablity and support, and the empowerment of the Righteousness of Christ to humble and empower us to be more like Him gets lost in the warm and fuzzies of a fake grace uncountered with Holiness and responsibility and accountability. That's it in a nutshell…..grace is never by itself….niether is striving to be Holy…..we need a dose of both….from Steve Brown and Co…..everything else is just a Caricature Scribble of the way we ought to be!!!

Brian July 10th, 2008

Amen!! double 00 and MikeMck!!!

Dennis007 July 11th, 2008

Keith —– I would like to clarify the issue about commandments and covenants. A covenant is an agreement!

Ex 24:6-8 KJV
"6And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

8And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words"

The agreement was — if you obey my laws, I will be your God and you will be my people. The covenant was not the law, — The covenant (agreement) was made concerning all these words (the law). There was nothing wrong with the covenant (agreement). The covenant (agreement) was broken by those who did not obey His laws.

Heb 8:7-10 KJV
"7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

The Old covenant had God's law written in stone. The new covenant has God's law written in the peoples hearts. The old covenant was ratified by the blood of animals. The new covenant is ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ. Remember, — The tribe of Levi remained faithful during the golden calf apostasy and were specially chosen by God for His service. In ;the New Covenant, if you agree to obey his law, you will be specially chosen for His service!

Please look at Heb. 8:8 The fault was not with the LAW, — the fault was with them (the people who broke the agreement).

Ps 111:7-8 KJV
7The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.

8They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

According to scripture, — God's commandments have never been changed or done away. They never will be changed or done away. In fact they will be the basis of the Judgement. The 10 Commandments have always been, — and always will be God's law.

When the mark of the beast is enforced, — God's faithful people will be keeping His Commandments!

Rev 14:12 KJV
"12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Don't assume that what you have been told is correct. Check it out for yourselves!

2 Tim 2:15 KJV
"15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

MikeMcK July 11th, 2008

[quote]Thats true MikeMcK, But Jesus meant that we are to set things straight based on sound Biblical teachings, it doesnt mean that we should place judgement on someone, because we dont know their heart,Only God does.[/quote]

Jesus said that we can know what's in a person's heart by his words and by the fruit that he bears.

Regular Jeff July 11th, 2008

Fruits of the spirit: Galatians 5:22-23, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

KeithL July 11th, 2008

Yes I am aware of the differences between a covenant and a testament.

The Old Covenant which contains the 10 Commandments and all of the Books of Moses(the Law), finished. Christ fullfilled it.

"You are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts…. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor. 3:3-6).

The tablets of stone which Paul speaks is the 10 commandments.

The old covenant was built around the core of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28). The old covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). The new covenant has been established (Hebrews 8:6).

The Only Commandents that Christian's are to keep are listed in various places of the New Testament, these are the Commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus that is refered to in Revelation 14:12.

But for those who wish to live by the Law of Moses,then you must keep it all. The Law of Moses includes all of it. Not just the sacrificial and dietary laws. Its strange that 99% of people that want the law/commandments, just want the ones they chose.

Read the following if you will.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/lawmoses.htm

God Bless!

KeithL July 11th, 2008

I hope no one is thinking I am condoning sin, Never, Christians are to teach others about what sin is and that we must not continue in sin. But at the same time many "Christians" dont use Chrisitan love when doing so. As Christians, we should never hate anyone, only the sin. Jesus said GO AND SIN NO MORE.

If Steve and anyone else condones sin then that is just wrong.

KeithL July 11th, 2008

STEVE B.???
Do you believe that once we accept Christ, that we can continue in sin? I want to hear your reply. I'm not talking about slip ups here and there ,for we all sin, but there's a difference between slipping and chosing to continue sinning.

Look forward to hearing your reply.

God Bless!

Brian July 11th, 2008

For ex…..let's say I beat my wife before I became a Christian. Then I come to SteveBrownetc.com and see how there's grace for tard like me…..I accept this grace. Then…..I take Steve up on his offer of 3 free sins, and resort to my old ways once again….and since I don't hear any teaching about being accountable, repentance, or feeling guilty about my beating my wife, (b/c no one can condemn me since "I'm under grace" style of thinking …..and uhhhh….no can should judge me since we "all" sin…..I just get more love while I beat the crap out of her from time to time. There ya go…..this is what I'm talking about…..we should never use grace to shut up about sin…..what a cop out!!

Dennis007 July 11th, 2008

KeithL ——– Don't kid yourself, ——- All of the 10 Commandments are in the New Testament!

Check it out!

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/ten_commandments-new_testament.html

There is nothing in scripture that says that we only need to obey the commandments mentioned in the New Testament! That is a doctrine of men! In fact, — There is no scripture that divides the inspired writings into Old and New. That was done by men who were not inspired.

Most people don't have a problem with 9 of the commandments. It is the one that God said to Remember that most people want to forget!

Only the sacrificial system was discontinued when Christ died. God Himself signified that by tearing the Veil in the Temple! The Sacrificial system was designed to help people accept the Messiah when he would come. After Christ came, — The Sacrificial system was no longer necessary!

May the Lord Bless and Keep you!

Brian July 11th, 2008

If you all go to Steve's responses from the Homosexual who loves his teachings…..one can then soon understand that Steve becomes the one who gets to dole out the grace…..nevermind the man's gay or anything (even says that He "gets it"…. would that be grace Steve?? How do you know that this man actually get's the grace of God?? You're not God so stop acting like Him! The trouble of trying to prove a radical grace……is that it goes way beyond to trump holiness….so much so that…..it's ok to be gay. Right Steve???

Brian July 11th, 2008

I find it very hard to define someone 'struggling" with sin is the equivalent of someone so comfortable to label themselves as a "gay" man in a "gay" relationship….yet albeit…testing the limits of "radical grace" so that everythings still ok in the end……God asked me to share that with you Steve…..who are you to be endorsing freedom to those under judgment Steve"?? Oooops….judgement isn't a part of your message…..but it is a part of God's.

Brian July 11th, 2008

The only sin these people will point out is that of those who disagree with Steve……as if that is worse than those taking license and liberty to sin freeeeeeellllly and feeling slap happy about their lifestyle of which Steve would contest as being better off than those who dare point it out……that's when you'll get the whole "pharisee bit"……cuz God forbids judging anybody for anything (so I suppose Paul's lying when he says "remove the wicked one from among you"). It's called Exhortation….a fervant call to righteousness and to flee from sin wherever and whenever we can……NOT LIVE IN IT!!! Wake up Steve!!!

Brian July 11th, 2008

Hey…..why aren't we free to judge?? I mean, if we're really free and all???

Dennis007 July 11th, 2008

KeithL
Your lawmoses link is deceptive and confusing! Let's use the Marriage Covenant for example. Two people agree to be faithful through better or worse sickness and health till death do us part. As long as they both keep the 7th commandment they remain husband and wife to each other. After a number of years, one of them committs Adultery. Now the covenant is broken. It has become obsolete. It has passed away. Since the 7th commandment is the core of this covenant, it has been done away. The law of adultery has been done away. This law has no more authority. We can all commit adultery as much as we like — Right???

That is the same logic that your friend used on that link. Can't you see that breaking the covenant didn't change the law in the slightest.

The Marriage covenant works every time it is kept, The old covenant worked everytime it was kept, and the New Covenant will only work if it is kept. If you keep God's law, then He will be your God, and you will be His people!

1 John 5:3 KJV
"3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

May the Lord Bless and Keep you!

Fran2426 July 12th, 2008

Several here seem to angrily shout to judge, exhort, confront the sinner, etc. (while using a ridiculous amount of exclamation points).

Paul wrote about this often, but it was usually in the context of dealing within one's family of believers, in your church—not something one was just to shout from street corners (or message boards) at total strangers with whom there is no relationship for counsel.

If you're going to randomly challenge strangers regarding sin, then you should also walk up to fat people on the street and confront them with their gluttony. You should chastise the homeless for their sloth.

And, if you're going to keep the law, you have to keep every bit of it, although I hope you don't stone your kids to death when they disobey, as the law says in Leviticus.

KeithL July 12th, 2008

Dennis007, the sabbth of Hebrews is the salvation rest that remains for Christians to enter and to be careful not to fall short of through unbelief. We are exhorted to enter this rest through faith (Heb 4:11, 3).

Yes the sabbath was kept by the Jewish Christians, but if you notice Paul and the others never commanded Gentile Christians to observe the sabbath. And that they taught on Sunday and other days aswell. And as Christians, it doesnt matter what day of the week we worship on…

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

See also…

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/sabbath1.htm#Hebrews_4:9

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/default.htm

God Bless!

KeithL July 12th, 2008

And Dennis007, the Commandments of God,which includes adultery is mentioned in the NT. The only commandments and Laws that are required are the Ones commanded that we keep in the NT.ALL Laws in the Mosiac Covenant which includes all 5 books of Moses was done away and fullfilled,

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised """and keep the law"–to whom we gave no such commandment–

Im going to wait on Steves answer to my above question for him, then I am out..There's no need to keep arguing over this over and over.

Grace and Peace you all!

Dennis007 July 12th, 2008

In the New Covenant God wants to write His law in your hearts. I think that David had Gods law written in his heart!

Ps 119:92-99 KJV
"92Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

93I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

94I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

95The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies.

96I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.

97O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

98Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.

99I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation."

KeithL July 12th, 2008

Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The Law showed them what was sin, but now we are under the Law of Christ, not of Moses.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [is] of the law, [it is] no longer of promise; but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 What purpose then [does] the law [serve]? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The Old Covenant and Testament points us to Christ, Christ has came, he Is Lord, and Now we are under the Law of Christ, The Old Covenant has been fullfilled now we are under the NEW,if its not commanded in the New, we shouldnt strive to remain under the old. Read all five books of Moses, if its in there as LAW then its part of the Old Covenant.

We could go one forever, but its fruitless. If you insist on keeping the Law of Moses then you must keep it all.
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

KeithL July 12th, 2008

That was alot to write but one verse really says it all

Gal 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Cant get much plainer than that. The law that it refers to is the "entire Law of Moses" which is found in the Books of Moses.
Another thing Those laws were for Israel, not Gentiles. If they had been for Gentiles, Jesus and the Apostles would have taught Gentile Converts to Christianity to have kept them.

Brian July 12th, 2008

Hey KeithL….keep reading after Gal 5:18….and it put's "law" back into context!! The context here isn't that we're no longer "under the law"….but under it's curse and damnation. If you're led by the Spirit…then your lifestyle of "choice" as a Christian will not be followed by the examples followed by vs. 19 either! We don't have to wait to see what Steve has to say about this….He's already spoken on behalf of you folks….no more law!!! that's not supported in the passages of Scrpture. THis is antinomianism….pure and simple, and it is a heresy. Grace + obedience (not a lifestyle of sin or lawlessness) = salvation and sanctification. James states, "faith without works is dead". Is James also wrong too?? Hey folks, it's both, and neither one is by itself….anybody who waters down either side at the expense of the other ( ie grace and repentance) is in total heresy without the other tension of balance….don't ever be a "grace" only or a "works" only person…….but only a couch potato Christian wants grace – accountability…..and Steve has already commented that Fat people are gluttonous….and was corrected by one of his own minions…..for obvious reasons.

Brian July 12th, 2008

Hey Fran….I thought we were free??

Fran2426 July 12th, 2008

Brian, my post had nothing to do with freedom.

It was about judgment and exhortation within the Biblical context of relationship–dealing one-on-one with those of the family. Every example the Bible gives us is a personal encounter.

I agree with what you said about the balance of faith and works. I would be a wolf in sheep's clothing if I said otherwise because God's word is clear on this.

It's our duty to sometimes exhort our brothers/sisters, in love and in a relationship, where there's room for follow-up and continued counsel. You won't get that from chastizing strangers on a message board, so I don't see how that's Biblical. That was my only point.

You don't even know if they're in your family. If they are, you may have hurt them and sent them running away from further instruction/wisdom. (Easy to do on an anonymous board.) Or, if they aren't in the family, you're just a sounding cymbal or clanging brass to them anyway because they don't know/love you.

I don't know–maybe we need some new rules for virtual exhortation.

Fran2426 July 12th, 2008

Oh, but Brian, if you meant were you free to continue to abuse exclamation points and ellipses–then no, no you are not.

Embrace the use of periods and commas. They are your friends.

(I'm kidding–I hope you laugh about that.)

Regular Jeff July 13th, 2008

Brian, I am now begging to be free.

I tried the balance that you typed about above and it doesn't work. I wasn't getting better. I was getting more religious.

After reading Steve and finding what he says to be true to scripture, I quit trying to get better and being more obedient. GUESS WHAT???? I have become more obedient. Why? Because, if I am not obedient God loves me anyway, and he is not angry with me? Why would I not want to please a Father like that?

I have never heard nor read where Steve has ever said, "no law" or that the law doesn't apply to us. In fact, recently he said the opposite on a Key Life episode on when being good isn't good enough. He said the law of God is perfect. It is our teacher and a point of measurement to see how we are doing in our walk. He has also said that "if we never have a desire to please God", we probably should make sure that we are really His.

I don't know why you are on this board. I don't know if it is to tell us how wrong we are and how wrong Steve is. I don't know if it is to just get typing exercise, or if it is to show others how "right" you are. It may be none of those things. I would hope that you would get a dose of the freedom that some of us have.

PEACE,
Regular Jeff (one of Steve's minions)

Dennis007 July 15th, 2008

Brian I see that you are not fooled by the "not under law" scripture missapplied. When Paul says that we are not under law but under grace, he is not saying that we are not under the jurisdiction of the law. The whole universe is under the jurisdiction of the law. He is saying that those who are experiencing the grace (the power to stop sinning) of God are not under the condemnation of the law because they stop sinning.

Another important point is that justification is only half of salvation. Justification is like a Governor's pardon. You can't earn the pardon, — all you can do is accept it. The other half of salvation is Sanctification. Sanctification is living the sanctified life — which is obedience. Justification and Sanctification go together like Faith and Works. People quote a Justification verse and then act as if it were the whole plan of salvation.

Trying to comunicate with KeithL reminded me of a song.

The Boxer
by Paul Simon

I am just a poor boy, though my story is seldom told.
I have squandered my resistance,
For a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises.
All lies and jest.
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

Dennis007 July 16th, 2008

I want Steve to see this story! When we respond to God the way these Fireman responded to this little boy, —– Then we are really free!

Am I a Fireman Yet?

In Queensland, Australia, a 26-year-old mother stared down at her 6-year old son, who was dying of terminal leukemia. Although her heart was filled with sadness, she also had a strong feeling of determination.
Like any parent, she wanted her son to grow up & fulfill all his dreams. Now that was no longer possible. The leukemia would see to that. But she still wanted her son's dream to come true.
She took her son's hand and asked, "Ben, did you ever think about what you wanted to be once you grew up? Did you ever dream and wish what you would do with your life?"
"Mummy, I always wanted to be a fireman when I grew up. Mum smiled back and said, "Let's see if we can make your wish come true." Later that day she went to her local fire Station in Brisbane, where she met Fireman Bob, who had a heart as big as Queensland.
She explained her son's final wish and asked if it might be possible to give her 6-year old son a ride around the block on a fire engine. Fireman Bob said, "Look, we can do better than that. If you'll have your son ready at seven o'clock Wednesday morning, we'll make him an honorary fireman for the whole day. He can come down to the fire station, eat with us, go out on all the fire calls, the full Monty! And if you'll give us his sizes, we'll get a real fire uniform for him, with a real fire hat – not a toy one – with the emblem of the Queensland Fire & Rescue Department on it, a yellow slicker like we wear, and rubber boots. They're all manufactured right here in Brisbane, so we can get them fast."
Three days later Fireman Bob picked up Ben, dressed him in his uniform and escorted him from his hospital bed to the waiting truck. Ben got to sit on the back of the truck and help steer it back to the fire station. He was in heaven. There were three fire calls in Brisbane that day and Ben got to go out on all three calls. He rode in three different fire engines that day. He was also videotaped for the local news program.
Having his dream come true, with all the love and attention that was lavished upon him, so deeply touched Ben, that he lived three months longer than any doctor thought possible.
One night all of his vital signs began to drop dramatically and the head nurse, who believed in the hospice concept – that no one should die alone, began to call the family members to the hospital.
Then she remembered the day Ben had spent as a fireman, so she called the Fire Station and asked if it would be possible to send a fireman in uniform to the hospital to be with Ben as he made his transition.
The Officer in charge replied, "We can do better than that. We'll be there in five minutes. Will you please do me a favour? When you hear the sirens screaming and see the lights flashing, will you announce over the PA system, that there is not a fire? It's the department coming to see one of its finest members one more time. And will you open the window to his room?"
About five minutes later a hook and ladder truck arrived at the hospital and extended its ladder up to Ben's third floor open window 16 fire-fighters climbed up the ladder into Ben's room. With his mother's permission, they hugged him and held him and told him how much they LOVED him.
With his dying breath, Ben looked up at the fire chief and said, "Chief, am I really a fireman now?"
"Ben, you are, and the Head Chief, Jesus, is holding your hand," the O.L.C said. With those words, Ben smiled and said, "I know, He's been holding my hand all day, and the angels have been singing…" He closed his eyes one last time.

Submitted by Faith Lyons

Regular Jeff July 17th, 2008

"When you have a desire for righteousness, obedience and commitment, that is a sign of freedom fast approaching. In other words, where did you get the desire for righteousness? From the God who will make you righteous. Where did you get the desire to deepen your life with Christ? From the God who is going to give you the freedom to fulfill that desire."

"The freedom Christ gives us is freedom from the law, but if you only get that, you have only half the picture. You also have freedom to do something. Now that you have that freedom, What can you do? The answer–the fruit of the Spirit."

Two quotes directly from Steve's teaching.

Rambo228 November 14th, 2008

okay if i can't sin deliberately then what am i trusting in to save me? myself and not Christ

cmon if you can't deliberately sin then you are trusting in yourself and your own righteousness to save you, and you will never be secure in Christ

salvation
faith alone in Christ alone…but the faith that saves is never alone…yes you can deliberately sin but the man who has truly been saved no longer wants to sin because he is a new creation…Steve Brown teaches the truth.

Daniele January 28th, 2010

Guys:

Ever heard about SIN and SINS. Sin, the separation from God and sins the symptoms of the disease. If you are reconciled with God (born again), although you may still have symptoms of the disease, how can you be separated from HIM again. It becomes a relationship, a commitment, He won't let you out of it that easily. Reconciled but not yet perfected, so there goes your free sin. There will be many mistakes you will make before the end, and thank God He won't look it over, it paid for.
What Steve is trying to say, and forgive me if I am wrong, is "lighten up" so that you may shine of the glory of the forgiven, that your joy may be seen and envied.