Joshua May 17th, 2007

I'm embarrassed to admit it but I had never heard of Anne before this podcast. But when you spend most days with your head firmly wedged between your posterior cheeks you tend to miss a lot. I'm with you Erik, hers was by far my favorite piece. Especially for someone who hopes to feed my family by writing at some point. I think you said Erik that a great writer or musician is someone who you can relate to or who articulates what it is you are feeling. Anne certainly has mastered that. These Brown sessions are such a breath of fresh air. I can't wait for John Eldredge. It would be interesting for you guys to have on someone like Ralph Reed or Joel Osteen and have a debate but demonstrate Christ's love throughout your discourse. Keep up the wonderful work.

Mark May 18th, 2007

I enjoyed hearing this again. Anne Lamott is one of my absolute favorite authors. She writes in the language of grace.

Carole May 19th, 2007

Anne Lamott speaks of grace in the smallest of happenings. What a breath of fresh air! It's a delightful and humbling read.

Wade May 20th, 2007

She has redeeming qualities, she'd be great if she would stop swearing.

Mark May 21st, 2007

OK, I'll bite.

What is it about Ms. Lamott's swearing that keeps her from being great?

señor jefe May 21st, 2007

wtf?!? I think she's pretty damn great.

Joshua May 21st, 2007

I'm with you senor jefe. I'm sorry Wade, I'm sure you mean well and we can spend eternity discussing this further but sometimes I think we'd reach a lot more pagans with the message of Christ if we weren't so damned up tight.

dorsey May 21st, 2007

Hell, yeah!

Mike May 23rd, 2007

I have no problem swearing I just listened to the interview and am trying to figure out how to balance everything I know of God with the anything is ok idea. I have been listening to Steve and Etcetera for a while and it is tons of fun and makes since but maybe I have a little too much religion in me or something which no one who knows me would ever think based on my extremely sin filled life but I am having a hard time coming around to just accepting everything and the loving everyone no matter what thing. there are people that I just enjoy hating sometimes and definetely some political type stuff that I don't think mesh with christianity. I am trying to change into a happy go lucky God doesn't hate me type of christian but it is really hard, Do you guys have any suggestions? I feel like I know some of you now since listening for so long so your thoughts are greatly appreciated. I figured listening to these podcasts would help some what but sometimes it confusses me even more???? How did you guys make the switch or were you always this way? I know Steve started out and had to make the switch along the way, is it this hard for everyone?

señor jefe May 23rd, 2007

Mike,

I've been where you are and it sucks! When I came to the point where I realized that my christian experience was an outwardly-focused thing, and had little to no spiritual substance (just a bunch of rules & regs), it bothered me… made me feel hollow.

For me, the secret was not to simply defer to some weird form of greasy-grace, but to come to a place of freedom where I could recognize that I cannot earn anything from God. But because He has made me free, my desire is to be with/like Him… not out of condemnation or obligation, but out of a sense of love & honor.

If we focus attention on our own actions, whether we're trying to stop them or justify them, the wrong thing is getting our attention.

Instead, I have found that as I focus on God, and I mean REALLY focus on Him (talk to Him, listen, read the scriptures), my actions will eventually take care of themselves, because I'm not trying to manipulate my own ego to satisfy my conscience. Instead, I'm looking to Him and eventually living to give Him glory.

III John2 says, "Beloved, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well". It has to start on the inside first. Then the outward actions will become a reflection of an organic relationship, and not the adherence to a stiff set of church rules.

That's how it's been for me. I never realized just how difficult it would be to take my attention off myself and my behaviors. When I think of it that way, it doesn't seem very spiritual.

(Oh, and since we're on Steve Brown's site, it behoovs me to recommend reading "A Scandalous Freedom" a couple times through… that'll help, too)

Mike May 24th, 2007

Thanks, I have been listening to the Scandalous freedom podcast I like it. I'm getting the info and it makes since I am just struggling for the how to get it done. I will get a copy and keep listening and I don't think Dorsey is funnier, you are both very entertaining.

Joshua May 24th, 2007

Mike,
As I read senor (where is that damned accent key to get the squiggly over the n?) jefe's remark I was nodding my head vigorously. If I'm not mistaken I remember seeing you posting in the KeyLIfe forums. There is a transition in coming here from a place where, unfortunately, when you make yourself vulnerable you get punted in the stones to a place where people will genuinely love on you no matter how radical their doctrine might seem. I tell you brother, I am right there with you. I struggle daily with this whole grace issue and where the line is between living free and being spiritually lazy. Jefe made a great point about the difficulty in shifting the focus off of self and place it on Jesus. "How am I supposed to live now" or "where are the boundaries" where very quickly revealed to me as the wrong questions. The most compelling part of all this is realizing that Jesus actually does love me and once I understood that my questions began to be "how can I know this Jesus who loves me, invests in me, and gives a damn about what happens to me more?". Steve says, and I'm summarizing, but we want to avoid sin not because its "wrong" per se but because of how it impacts our father who loves us so much. If your earthly parents love you and tell you that playing in traffic is not advisable you are likely not going to do it because you love them too and you want to please them. Its the same. Listen, I would love to talk to you more about it and flesh some of this stuff out. Here is the link to my blog http://joshuagsanders.blogspot.com/ and my email is on there. Give me a shout and don't worry brother you are in the right place.

señor jefe May 24th, 2007

Hey Joshua, the easiest way to get the spanish 'ñ' is to cut & paste it.

Wade May 26th, 2007

Hey Mark, it is the swearing itself that I object to. I'm reading her book "operating instructions" right now and it's a tough slog just because I have to endure f-ing, gd, etc. It just isn't where I want my mind to go. And, yes, I do think it is dishonoring to God. (am I opening a new can of worms?) BTW did you notice in the interview, Steve deliberately avoided using some of her choice words?

señor jefe May 26th, 2007

Wade makes a good point.

I know for me, I don't care if people use objectionable words when they speak. But there is something different about having to read it. For me, it doesn't read well if overused. The exception, of course, is humor. If done right, a well-placed choice-word can be hilarious.

Will the f-word send you to hell? No, I don't think so. 'Dishonoring to God'? I'm not sure God even cares about stuff like that (God looks on the heart and all that…). But as a matter of personal preference, that sort of language can detract from the intended message… especially in theological circles, where outward actions seem to be the benchmark for holiness/righteousness…etc.

God bless the hell out of ya'!

dorsey May 26th, 2007

You clearly don't work in construction. heh

I understand why social mores render the f-bomb inappropriate for polite company, but what is the logic that leads you to believe that it dishonors God?

Wade May 26th, 2007

No, I don't work in construction, and it's not that I blush everytime I hear a curse, I rub shoulders with all kinds of people. Are you saying that in the foul language department, anything goes? What I teach my kids is that, especially as regards the gd word, that we can talk about God and talk to God, other uses of His name are inappropriate and violate the 3rd commandment not to misuse the name of God. Whillikers, would you all not consider it a good thing to keep our mouths out of the gutter? How many of you would go to church and swear in front of the preacher and not wish you hadn't. If you really believe what you are saying, then that shouldn't bother you. (maybe some of you wouldn't be bothered) (?)

Mike May 26th, 2007

I guesse, I would fall somewhere in between all this, I used to cuss a lot, then I got saved and stopped completely, then I fell and started all up again, so right now I control what I say and don't say by who I am around and what they would find offensive, I'm not really sure if God cares what words we use other than when we refer to Him in a profain type of way, I still don't say "God" or "Jesus" or "Christ" in and non honoring way simply because even though I am rebelling against God's will and disobeying Him I still have that underlying respect for His Holyness. Maybe thats just me. The rest of the words cossidered profain I believe are only profain out of respect or lack of respect for the people around. Hearing or reading these words don't really phase me, but I do flinch if my kids are around or watching the movie or something like that. I think that is because they might start using the words but as children they lack the ability to control the usage based on the situation. It seems to be a very grey subject, lots of people, lots of oppinions. Again though I personally don't like the stuff that accaully involves God's name in a disrespectful way even when its not technically profain. I still though would never fault a non believer for any of it. If they are not a believer then why would God or His good name matter, it wouldn't and I wouldn't impose my preferences on them, that would be like expecting someone without the Holy Spirit to not sin, it's just not gonna work out. It is and interesting topic though.

dorsey May 26th, 2007

Hey Wade, I'm not an "anything goes" guy, but you picked the wrong example. I've left church plenty of times thinking I probably SHOULD have cursed in front of the preacher. LOL.

You sort of sidestepped my question. I don't generally misuse the Lord's moniker, either, but apart from social morality, why does the f-bomb dishonor God? Would you say that I shouldn't use it when I'm praying? Why or why not? If it's in my mind, doesn't He already know it?

I hope you understand, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I just think this is an interesting exploration.

dorsey May 26th, 2007

Mike, shut up. I am too funnier.

Wade May 26th, 2007

Hey Dorsey, I do understand and I'm not picking up my boxing gloves (just yet!). Seriously though, I do find it hard to understand your perspective. If you and I were sitting in a circle of people who were praying, when your turn came, would you really say that? Reeely?? Of course if it is in your mind God knows it is there, does that mean you should let it out? There are lots of things that go through all our minds that shouldn't go anywhere else except our mental "recycle bin". I hate to sound preachey but have you considered Phillipians 4:8 that tells us to think about good things? How about Ephesians 4:29 that tells us to keep unwholesome things from coming out of our mouths. I live overseas, and every culture has its "less than wholesome" thoughts ideas and words. I think that is exactly what these verses are talking about. Specifically about the f-word, it refers, in a derogatory way, to something beautiful, that God created to be a blessing to us. In light of the above verses, how can that be good?

BTW I may have sidestepped your question, but you did mine too! You didn't curse the preacher. Probably because somethng deep inside you said you ought not to. I've also noticed that you are using euphemisms for the f-word. So did some of the earleir responses to my initial post. Why? If it is really OK why do we need alternatives?

dorsey May 26th, 2007

Wade, you seem to be trying to establish a standard that applies to everyone, across the board, when this is really an issue of liberty (I'll second my brother's recommendation to read "A Scandalous Freedom" here).

First, let me get the decorum issue out of the way. I have spoken euphemistically here out of respect for the host. I know Steve doesn't use such language, and I think it would be inappropriate (but certainly not sinful) to use it here. If I were having dinner with the Queen of England, I'd probably censor myself, but not because I think it would anger God to do otherwise. Likewise, if you and I sat down for a beer, I'd likely restrain my speech, out of deference to your stated convictions.

Phillipians 4:8 says to think about things that are true, honorable, lovely, pure, etc. It's interesting to note that there is much that is true that is not lovely, nor pure, nor any of those other things. But still, I agree. I saw a sunrise, and it was f-ing beautiful. I simply used an adjective that means "very," to the extreme.

When you bring up Eph. 4:29, I don't read that verse as talking about "bad words," but more like gossip, slander, and the like. My NASB cross-references that verse with Colossians 3:8, which refers to "abusive speech."

More to the point, this issue, like most, falls under the purview of Romans 14. For all the reasons you have given, you, Wade, absolutely should not use the f-word, but you need to give Anne LaMott and others the latitude to come to such a decision (or not) on their own. It's not yours or mine to arbitrate. "Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind."

(Btw, I didn't say "curse the preacher." I said "in front of the preacher." Big difference, and I refrained because of Romans 14.)

Mike May 27th, 2007

Ok, maybe I just havn't heard enough to know that Dorsey is the funniest, I should just take Sharon's word for it. I know you are all much more funny than I so maybe I can't see the degrees of funnynes, I will pay more attention and see if I can see the difference, but I do think Sharon has everyone scewed to one side by now.

The language thing is good, i'm enjoying reading it, from the outside looking in, it doesn't seem like you really disagree that much.

On the cussing in front of the preacher thing I wouldn't have too much of a problem with that if the preacher pissed me off, but then I am not a good example for anyone. I would likely keep it undercontrol out of respect for anyone that I accually respect, it realy isn't that hard, There is the occasional slip up but I would hope that they would give me the same grace that I wold give them if they did the same thing.

Wade May 28th, 2007

*Sigh* Dorsey, I guess I just don't see this as a liberty issue. I really do believe that God isn't pleased when we use profane words. Call me a legalist if you want to. And, yes, I think it applies to you too! I haven't read "scandalous freedom" but I listened to the first 2 podcasts today just to be sure I knew what he was talking about. I've been living "scandalously" for almost 30 years. I think it is one of the most wonderful things I have ever heard. No, swearing isn't going to send you to hell, if you are a believer. No, swearing isn't going to make God mad at you. And no, you won't "get the fever and die". I'll go back to my initial point and ask you one question: Do you think God is pleased with Anne Lamott's swearing in her books? I just don't think so. And I think she should stop.

dorsey May 28th, 2007

Ok, if that's the way you feel, that's the way you feel. I have found the whole Rom. 14 thing enormously liberating (especially verses 10-12), but I have to admit, I had read it through a couple thousand times before it really clicked.

To answer your question, I think God is crazy about Anne Lamott, period.

I think we've milked this one pretty good, but I'm curious, what kinds of topics would you consider issues of liberty?

señor jefe May 28th, 2007

I think God would have our language be a reflection of our relationship with Him… just as He would have our actions, prayers, worship & everything else be a reflection of our relationship with Him.

Man looks on the outside (and judges) but God looks on the heart (and judges Christ).

When christians begin telling each other how God thinks THEY should act, it's pharisaical, at best. And if it's an action or a word that you don't believe will send you to hell, then why correct someone else based on your personal convictions?

Paul said that all things were lawful, but not all things were expedient. That expediency issue is a very personal thing.

I understand why you feel the way you do, Wade. And I also understand Dorsey's position. I fall somewhere in-between.

I think we're all right!

(how's THAT for subjective theology…)

dorsey May 28th, 2007

I don't make an assertion either way. My position is that such decisions are between a servant and his master, no one else.

Joshua May 29th, 2007

I haven't been a part of this dialogue between Wade and Jefe and Dorsey and I'm not jumping in now but I did want to say that I applaud all sides because no matter how heated it got you kept talking. Pardon my gushing but that's just beautiful. Its kind of like mixing steak and ice cream…the two things don't taste good together but they're all going to the same place. We aren't always going to hold hands and sing hymns together but at the end of it all heaven is waiting and we will enter together. For what its worth I think the only chance we have of changing the world around us is to stick it out together no matter how "legalistic" or "free" or "profane" or "profound" we find each other. I love that this format has embraced and encouraged that.

dorsey May 29th, 2007

Did you just compare heaven to the lower intestine? That's just wrong.

Joshua May 29th, 2007

yes I did…and I stand by my analogy. And while we're on the subject I know its not technically "in" the Bible but I bet Jesus and the disciples let a few fly around the fire. And I also bet there was chuckling. As there should be.

Joshua May 29th, 2007

As a sidebar my wife started reading Operating Instructions last night and she said, "this lady is a Christian?". I guess it was the commentary on a mans…uh…business. She, like myself, is emerging from a legalistic background so reading "real" commentary on "real" topics still makes you feel like you're being naughty. I guess that's why Steve calls it scandolous freedom. Its just difficult to shake off that old dead skin sometimes no matter how good it feels in the new skin.

Erik May 29th, 2007

Have you or your wife read Traveling Mercies? I'd start with that one.

Joshua May 29th, 2007

I'll check that one out. I feel like I know Anne's heart pretty well after hearing her talk with Steve and so I just filter out the edgy stuff and glean the wonderful insights she has. We'd all seem just as edgy if we didn't put up our facades. Most of us aren't glossy in reality but because we've been burned we're scared to be vulnerable and so the wall grows denser. We almost lost our son last year and so I thought Operating Instructions would be a good way for my wife to familiarize herself with Anne. Thanks for the tip Erik. We'll definitely check out Traveling Mercies.

Mike May 29th, 2007

Dorsey that was funny and succinct…

señor jefe May 30th, 2007

Has anyone considered the concept that when Jesus called pharisees "brood of vipers" or "whitewashed tombs" that these may have been literal translations of the more base idioms of the day? (ie- SOB… etc)

I'm not sure if I buy into it, but it IS interesting to consider…

Joshua May 30th, 2007

señor jefe (i followed your advise and cut and pasted) I think you may be on to something. Seriously. I dated a girl from Russia (no I didn't order her on the internet) and when she described how they swear at someone it was like that. Very literal like, "you are the hair on a wolf's anus". I would imagine Hebrew was like that. We've streamlined our descriptives to the point where they are just one word zingers. In a thousand years we'll probably be communicating in monosylabic grunts again so we shouldn't always be so fast to use our present form of communicating as the ultimate reference point. You're always thinking jefe. Always.

Mike May 30th, 2007

A bunch of BOV'S and WWT'S.

dorsey May 30th, 2007

Jefe, I totally buy that. I have always considered that Jesus cussed them out. Serves 'em right, too (rotten bastards).

señor jefe May 30th, 2007

BOV's & WWT's?

Boys on Viagra?
Women Wanting Testicles?

That's just weird!

Mike Nicolich May 30th, 2007

At a minimum, I do not think "white-washed tombs" and "brood of vipers" are terms of endearment LOL I tend to agree with you.

dorsey May 30th, 2007

Let's keep posting stuff here, just to keep Anne Lamott at the number one spot.

Mike May 31st, 2007

BOV'S Brood of vipers
WWT's White washed tombs.

It was form your post, but I like the new ones better, I live in Tampa there are lots of WWT's where i work, if they could figure out how to get them they would have them.

I guesse the cussing thing got old and everyone else stopped posting. I'm gonna go back and listen to the interview again, I don't remember any cussing anyway.

señor jefe May 31st, 2007

!@#$%^&*!!!!!!!

Boy! Qwerty cussin' always makes me feel better.

Mike June 1st, 2007

They just used that one in the last scene of the season finally of Heroes.

renee June 6th, 2007

and then there is this infamous quote by tony campolo:

"I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a shit. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said shit than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night."

… the Word was made flesh.

renee

Mark June 6th, 2007

The first time I heard that quote was from a pastor - on a Sunday morning. I like it now as much as I liked it then. It's a great example of "If you think you shouldn't say something; then you probably really should say it."

(You think about that.)

© Steve Brown

emergent fan #1 June 6th, 2007

Is this where I sign up to join the emergent church? I saw an infomercial on how I can have a dynamic spiritual life by becoming 'emergent'. I've narrowed down my choices to joining the church of the guy with white hair who's always laying hands on people and knocking them out, or becoming emergent. Can anyone offer suggestions?

By the way, I like to eat popcorn and watch Oprah.

Erik June 6th, 2007

There was somebody else here wondering the same thing. Click here to listen.

Mike June 9th, 2007

I love that Campolo quote never heard it before I'm gonna use that one when i'm a preacher….

Steve Brown Etc. » Blog Archive » The Audacity to Show Up August 24th, 2007

[…] Lamott said something on the talk show that I've been noodling […]

George McFly January 29th, 2008

Did she star in "American Gangster"?

greg from canada May 1st, 2008

If anyone is interested, Anne was on the Colbert Report on Tuesday night? Tony Campolo has been on twice now, when is Steve going to make his appearance?