Joshua June 1st, 2007

Erik…that's the funniest flippin piece description you've ever put forth. I mean, "turn" gays to the hetero side of the force" and, "Gay, straight, or somewhere in between"? That's good stuff right there.

Mike June 14th, 2007

Is it wrong for us to say that God says being gay is wrong? We can say that adultery and murder and gluttony are wrong, right? I seem to be getting more and more confused these days. Do we have to disregard the things that God says are bad, because we ourselves are bad too, and since we can't be perfect and no one else can either we shouldn't say anything to anyone about behavior that God says is bad? See why i'm confused. If we say something is bad, even if God says it is bad we are then a legalist and don't understand grace and Jesus' love and forgiveness of our own sinfullness? This is not anyform of attack I really don't get it…..

Steve Brown June 15th, 2007

Hi Mike,

Of course homosexual practice is wrong and sinful.. as is being fat, being self-righteous and demeaning others. Harvest USA and John Freedom are very clear on the sin. But they are more clear on Christ and the need for repentance.

Repentance is two things. First, it isn't change… it is God's methodology to change us if that's what he proposes to do. And secondly, it is the bridge that takes us to God who will love us despite our sin. If there is no repentance, there is no need to even go to him.

And you're right… admitting that we don't live up to a standard doesn't mean that the standard should be lowered. In fact, if the standard (God's perfect law, the Psalmist says) isn't clear there can be no repentance and, therefore, no relationship to the God who always loves when we come to him.

And without repentance we can't experience what Luther defines as Sanctification, to wit, "Getting used to being forgiven."

People who are forgiven, generally get better…but they never get better enough to earn God's love and grace.

You're a good brother. Thanks for writing.

Bless,

Steve

Mike June 15th, 2007

Wow, I didn't expect a reply from the Old White Guy himself. I have been listening to all the podcasts for a while and reading the blogs. I have had a few discussions with some of the listeners too. I enjoy the programs but sometimes I get the vibe that since we are all not good enough we are never allowed to call others to be better. Since we know Jesus and are forgiven much by Him we have to accept everyone else and love them. I am all for that, but I still think if I am behaiving inapropriately someone should be allowed to tell me to straighten up. They can love me and be nice to me but isn't that part of loving people too, letting them know where they are screwed up and calling them to change? Most everytime I have felt convicted of sin and felt the need to change was because someone told me that what I was doing was wrong. I know that the people confronting me wern't perfect either and I don't expect that from them cause I know they can't. I don't know,,,, isn't it God's law and demand for perfection that drives us to realize that we need His forgiveness?

In the past I have suffered from some of the things you mentioned, I have been self rightious and demanding of others. I have been and still am fat, I have commited many sins that I know most people havn't, so I do not sit in judgment of others, but I think God would like for us to help each other to get better no matter how short of perfect it is, and no matter how much more a sinner I am than others. Just because i'm fat doesn't mean that being fat is ok, it is still wrong, well gluttony is wrong, and slugardness and laziness and sloth, which all cause fatness. Are my questions making sense?

Its can see what is wrong with demanding everyone to obey the laws and punishing when they fail to be perfect, but I also see something wrong with telling everyone do whatever you want, God is ok with it and so are we. Is there a middle?

Thanks for everything
and for taking it easy on me, i'm not trying to cause trouble just understand…
Mike

Naomi June 17th, 2007

This subject is so close to me and my daughters heart. Of course the most important thing in our life is the knowledge that Jesus is so important to our life, and we love him so very much. I myself, have to love the person with a gay lifestyle, but not wanting this for myself. I have experienced kind of the other side, which is being married and having a child of a man that decided he was living a lie. He could never talk about it, he was in the ministry in the church, and me on the other hand thinking everything was my fault. So in this hand it was tough. Having a daughter that has battled with this sittuation since she figured this out at the age of 9, now she is 31. Knowing how much she has been pained from this, was the way it hurt me, not becuse he decided to come out and live this lifestyle. God has been the only source that has gotten both of us through, this to all say, when will this lifestyle speak really to the children. They do actually crave both a mom and dads affection. I am so blessed to have come across Key Life, and Steve Brown.

Steve Brown Etc. » Blog Archive » Homosexuals and the Church (Re-Air) July 6th, 2007

[…] radio stations across the country will be re-airing the previously broadcast episode of SBE titled, Homosexuals and the Church. If you missed it, hit play below or download the mp3 and listen later. Don't forget, you can get […]

Tammy July 18th, 2007

Steve,

I am so thankful to Jesus that you and John are saying that the most important thing is to bring a person to Christ. Then let Christ work in a persons life. I am a lesbian myself and have been saved for about 13 years. I have also been in a commited relationship with my partner ( a woman) for many years and I have struggled so much in my head and my heart with the church saying we are going to hell for this. I know that I am not going to hell because Jesus is my Savior. I wish that some one in the church could have said this long ago because so many homosexuals have taken their own lifes thinking that god does not love them and never will unless they change. This is huge for the relationship of the Church and the homosexual. I have said to my heterosexual christian family (friends and actual blood family) for years that the
church is going about this all wrong. The most important thing is for a person to come to Christ. If you have accepted christ as your savior he will take you where he wants you to be. I am not convinced that the fact that I am in love with a woman and have never been attracted to a man is a sin, but I am listening to what you guys have to say about it and not shutting out your view on the matter. Thanks for stepping up to the plate and doing what jesus would have done (and maybe did do) while he was on this earth when faced with a homosexual person.

Thanks and God bless this ministry.

Tammy

Doyle July 28th, 2007

Oh, Steve… OH, STEVE…
I have listened to your radio show for years (whenever I was in range). I have always considered you a forerunner for Grace. I have enjoyed your, sometimes, oblique attacks at "traditional Christianity".

Please reconsider calling "being fat" a sin. The Bible, as far as I studied it, never condemns "being fat" as a sin. It DOES condemn gluttony, but this is a intentional over consumption of food for the sake of it. It may result in "being fat", but not necessarily (consider the familiar disorder of binging/purging.) Many people say just what you say. Even my Bible class teacher says things like: "I have a real problem with someone who condemns homosexuals when they are as big as a horse!"

I am hypoglycemic and must eat several times a day to maintain blood sugar/insulin balance. Genetically, I am predisposed to gaining and maintaining fat deposits. As the doctor says: "Your genes are designed to make you a survivor in famine conditions."

As a laundry route driver I service upwards of 170 stops (customers) during a 6 to 8 hour shift while driving over 100 miles through neighborhoods and business districts. I eat only what is necessary (just snacks (nuts and such) while working and I don't take a lunch break). You'd think from this routine that I wouldn't be fat, right? But at 5 foot 9 inches, I weigh almost 250 lbs!

Am I sinning by being fat? I don't think so!

Do I sin in other areas? Certainly!

Please do not condemn people for their state of being. Just tell everyone that sin is something you think or do, not what you are.

Thank you for letting me contribute.
Doyle

John August 25th, 2007

Not my words but God's.
Lev. 18: 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Gary Hubbard September 4th, 2007

We can blab all day about what we think! Steve is very good at that! We can talk about what God says or we can repeat what God actually says. No smoke and mirrors! Straight up! It's not what we think God says but what God actually says through the authority of the Holy Scriptures. THUS SAITH THE LORD!

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Ga 5:19-24 AV)

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1Jo 3:7-10 AV)

Pretty clear isn't it!

Yup! Another one of those unloving crazies that Steve talks about! Blah! Blah! BLAHBLAHABLABLAH! TALK TALK TALK!

kathy shields September 22nd, 2007

A friend who I admire and respect invited me to her church to listen to your sermon. She told me that you speak the truth and make people think, so I dropped into this blog to get a feel for your style and values when dealing with volatile issues of the day like homosexuality. Frankly your glib comparison of homosexuality to obesity made me laugh. You have got to be kidding! Are you always so prone to gross exaggeration? Who can be helped and how can God's love be revealed in such a generalization? My friend was right. You do make people think.

kisha October 24th, 2007

Okay; so, I was in class the other day (a college psychology class) and we were all sitting around talking about gay and lesbian issues. And, living in bible belt, America, there were these issues where everyone was either bashing homosexuals or failing to comment. And, this really brave man spoke up and said that he was a Christian, he had a salvation experience, had grown up in a christian home. He went to christian camps. He tried to date girls, but he just found out that he wasn't attracted to them. He said he prayed and prayed for God just to make him normal…when he realized that he was homosexual. He said he went through a time of self-hatred and suicidal thoughts where he tried to deny or hide his sexual orientation.

He then went on to describe how certain things happened that made him have to face the fact that his parents had found out. He said his dad met him on the porch of their home that night and literally showed us scars where his father had wailed away on him ….telling him…i won't have a faggot for a son!

And he just cried…right there in the classroom and said….you all say this is a sin or else it is a sickness and no one believes that i'm just this way. Yet, i can't see a time where i chose to be this way. To my knowledge i'm not sick and i'm not posessed. i love God…don't think that i'm not a believer.

i found this shook me. it shook so much. he didn't seem to be lying…and the scars were real. And, he loves people like Jesus would. So, you know, i don't get it. i have to believe the bible and yet i see the tears in this man's face and the pain he's endured because people that professed to be Christians tore him to pieces over his sexual orientation.

So, at this point, i'm confused. i do not know what to believe. And, i'm worried that God is mad at me for questioning and for being confused.

All i keep thinking is that….as far as sin goes.

i KNOW that it is sinful to hate someone because they are different. i know that it is sinful to harm another human being. i know that it is a sin to think that i'm better than anyone–no matter what they do in their sexual life.

And, maybe i'm wrong….maybe God is really going to get me and i'll really wish i hadn't questioned him….but i'm not so sure that acceptance, compassion, and someone wishing to care for and be with and love another IS WRONG regaurdless of the sexual orientation.

it just seems too me that there's already too much hatred in circulation.

i don't know…maybe i'm depraved.

Jesus knows the answer. maybe he already told me in the bible and i'm just finding it hard to understand.

Do you think he hates me for that?

Jeffrey October 31st, 2007

I'd like to respond to some of the questions raised by other posts. As a gay Christian and former pastor, I think I may have some useful insights.

First, to kisha: Though others may tell you differently, I cannot conceive of a loving God condeming any of us limited creatures for not understanding everything perfectly, or for doubting what we've been told when the evidence of our own experience puts it in question. That's how human beings learn and grow — by taking what we've received, with all its conflicts, and struggling through to a new point of equilibrium. It is a never-ending and often painful process and, quite frankly, many folk including many otherwise good Christians find it so difficult that they decide not to engage in it — usually tossing out the evidence of their lives in favor of prepackaged "answers" that are more comfortable than growth. You are to be commended for having the courage to question — that's how we grow in understanding and in faith, and it's how we build up enough spiritual toughness to deal with the crises life invariably hands us. God loves us, and made us the way we are, limited and uncertain. You will never be condemned for being human, or for allowing compassion for another human being to lead you into re-examining what you believe, to allow your faith to grow to encompass your new experience.

I would also note that you have seen evidence that all of us — Christian or not — are capable of horrible sin. Your friend's story is far from unique. I once knew a young man who came home from college for a break, having worked up the courage to tell his parents that he had realized that he is gay. His mother wept quietly (not uncommon) while his father silently stood and left the room, returning with a shotgun and a box of shells. Still silently he broke open and loaded the gun, and placed both barrels on his son's breastbone. "Leave," he said, "and don't come back. If I ever see you on my property I'll kill you." Regrettably, ignorance and fear often result in terrible violence, both physical and spiritual, against those we do not understand. Topping that list for many are homosexuals.

On a more general point: John cited Leviticus, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind…" While one could question whether John is as adamant about the wearing of mixed-fiber clothing (also an abomination, per Leviticus), I'll let pass the question of picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we insist upon for others and which we ignore for ourselves and address the central issue: Do homosexuals in fact "lie with mankind as with womankind"?

I was married to a remarkable and gracious woman for 12 years prior to realizing that I needed to come to terms with the reality that I am gay. (We are still close friends. Like I said, a remarkable and gracious woman.) I never broke my marriage vows, with any one of either gender, prior to the end of our marriage. The problem was far deeper than sex: as a gay man, I relate romantically and emotionally with other gay men, rather than with women. As with heterosexual couples, homosexual couples (as opposed to permiscuous members of either orientation) find that sex will strengthen and deepen an already existing emotional and spiritual bond.

My marriage was based on a strong friendship and my sincere desire to be what I thought I was expected to be, and my belief that if I did what was "right" God would support me in it. That didn't happen. What did happen was that I lived in increasing pain and sorrow for years, starting when I had my first crush at age 8. I conformed to what I thought was expected, what I was told God expected, and tried to be someone I was not, to my great regret. Finally, in my late 30s, I had nothing left but pain and loneliness and a gaping hole in the heart of my being where all the good things in life, starting with my ability to love wholeheartedly, were supposed to be.

For years I had asked God to change me; God did not. Then I asked for the strength to change myself; it didn't come. Can you just take away the pain? No. Give me the strength to bear it? No.

Finally, deep in the night, I prayed correctly: not my will but thine. If you won't change me or help me change, or make the pain somehow bearable, will you help me accept that I am gay? YES. I cannot describe the warmth and comfort that came to me as soon as I formed that prayer. It wasn't that I was too far gone for God to hear or help me — I'd been asking the wrong thing. I was as I was, and God did not intend for me to change, but to come to terms with the fact that I am not as I had sought to be.

Life took more twists and turns, as it will. My wife and I chose in time to end our marriage so that we could preserve our friendship. I left my pulpit in accordance with my denomination's requirements — I could stay in silence or live openly, and I would not purchase my license to preach by living a lie. I found new work, and in time a new mate with whom I now share my life.

So, do I lie with mankind as with womankind? No. When I was with my wife, though blessed by the Church and the state, the relationship was based on a lie about who I was. The fact that it was a lie I told myself first and foremost is irrelevant. My relationship now, with a kind and gifted man, is based not. My marriage hurt a good woman who did nothing wrong except fall in love with me; it hurt my family and hers; it hurt my congregation; it hurt me. My new relationship (ten years next month) hurts no one, least of all me, my partner, or our families, who love and support us and rejoice in our happiness. Regardless of the stance of the Church, I know that God, too, loves and supports us; the evidence is there in my renewed spirit, and in the strength of our commitment to each other that grows over time and through both adversity and ease.

For a straight man to enter a romantic relationship with a man is a lie, is bound to result in pain, is sin. For a gay man to enter into a romantic relationship with a woman is equally sinful. The greatest sin in my life was the lie on which I sought to build my first marriage. The least sinful thing I have ever done was falling in love with someone I could love with all my heart, mind, soul and strength. The sin isn't in gender — it's in whether we are or are not true to the person God made.

Daniel November 1st, 2007

Jeffery:
I appriciate your lengthy explination, but homosexuality is a sin regardless of the context. And while God forgives you and loves you, he unfortunately does not support your lifestyle. For a new testemant example: "…Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were" 1 Corinthians 6:8-11

Key word in the last sentence.."were" not "continuing"…
So I must respectfully disagree with your stance on that

MikeMcK November 1st, 2007

Jeffrey, many people here have pointed out to you that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. It's clear that you don't believe that, and I suppose that's up to you.

But my problem is that you say you were a pastor and yet, you don't seem to know some of the most basic doctrines of Christianity.

As a former pastor, would you mind taking just a minute to explain to me what the Bible says is the purpose of marriage?

Tyler November 4th, 2007

Daniel, Corinthians seems to group homosexuals along with the greedy. I seem to know a lot more greedy people in the church than I know gay Christains. Why do we spend more energy on the gay issue than the issue of greed? I don't recall the last sermon where the preacher was condeming the greedy to hell. Isn't being gay no different than being greedy? What Christian claims they are not fallen. Why woud being gay be worse than being greedy? The whole issue is this: We are all fallen. And we all may be recipiants of God's grace. (I am of the opinion that the poeple who criticize the gays almost need a greater measure of grace than the gays. Their intollerance borders on hate.)

greg from canada November 4th, 2007

I find it very interesting that as christians that we seem to categorize sin into severity levels. Telling a "white" lie might be a 1, a bad lie might be a 4, stealing might be a 5, sex before marriage might be a 7. But homosexuality ranks at a 10 for most. Its interesting that we see other peoples sins as severe and that they are unforgivable when we are as sinful as them. Not that I am condoning homosexuality. It is a sin like any other sin that needs to be addressed and worked on. And I do think that groups like the "God hats fags" group does promote hate and are probably as bad as the KKK.

Jeffery, I do agree with Daniel that as long as you continue to practice homosexuality you do continue to sin. However, i do think that if you consider yourself gay but dont actualy practice it you are not sinning. I don't envy you Jeffery, it must be a very though thing to live with. And I pray that you can continue to work with God to help you and that you have others around to support you.

MikeMcK November 5th, 2007

[quote]Daniel, Corinthians seems to group homosexuals along with the greedy. I seem to know a lot more greedy people in the church than I know gay Christains. Why do we spend more energy on the gay issue than the issue of greed?[/quote]

We should address all sin, but the reason homosexuality, specifically, is the big topic these days is that it's the only one that's actually being touted as a virtue.

I mean, when was the last time you saw a "hypocrite pride" parade? Has anybody called you "thief-o-phobic" because you believe that the Bible says that stealing is wrong?

There's always been a trend in Christianity to say, "Well, I may be a sinner facing God's wrath on judgement day, but at least I'm not as bad as that guy"

But, in reality, the Bible says that all sin seperates us from God and all sin makes us enemies of God, and even the smallest transgression is enough to send us to Hell.

Erik November 5th, 2007

Good morning Mike. Hope you had a good weekend.

I feel like that cartoon sheep dog and coyote. All civil, then punch the clock and go at it again. (I'll let the reader decide which one of us is trying to kill the sheep).

So Mike, you admitted last week that you sin while constantly harping on others' sins.

Does your sin make you an enemy of God? Will your small transgressions send you to Hell?

MikeMcK November 5th, 2007

Hi, Eric. The nasty emails you sent me this weekend only made me more determined to pray for you.

I think it's really telling that I didn't even address you, and yet, you took it upon yourself to come and harrass me here.

Nasty, rude emails, stalking, etc. What a great example of Key Life you are.

Daniel November 5th, 2007

Tyler and others:
I agree ALL sin is equally untolerable before God. I also think the things mentioned in corinthians are "lifestyles", and one should not accept any of those lifestyles…I certainly hope I didn't come across as hateful or homophobic, that is not my feeling nor intent,but just as one who is openly "greedy" or "drunk" would be discouraged from those lifestyles, so should one who is homosexual. Yes we should accept them just as Jesus did…"as they are"…but we cannot encourage them to continue in sin, no more than we'd encourage a drunk to go back to the bottle or a greedy person to take advantage of others..
Unfortunately homosexuality is one of those "hot button" issues where more rhetoric than rational thought is presented, and more harm is usually done than help, so with that, I'll continue to "love the sinner and hate my own sin"…

Erik November 5th, 2007

Aw man, now you're gonna make me post the emails for all to see.

The first one was in response to an email Mike sent to Steve complaining about me and quoting one of my replies to him.

—–Original Message—–
From: Erik
To: Mike
Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 9:48 am
Subject: RE: Hi, Steve — Steve Brown Etc. contact form

Tattletale. I'll be sure to pass your comments along to Steve.

Don't even pretend that you're not enjoying this as much as I am.

e.

[Mike responded]

From: Erik
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:12 AM
To: Mike
Subject: RE: Hi, Steve — Steve Brown Etc. contact form

You are baiting arguments on purpose on his website, so don't even pretend you respect Steve. You're not sad about the exchange, you're a manipulator.

Steve does not take a frivolous attitude toward sin. You ignore that fact and keep posting because you like the attention you get from stirring things up.

Either the above is true, or you are totally blind to how self-righteous you are. Either way, I'm not going to let either go unchallenged on the site I maintain.

e.

From: Erik
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:56 AM
To: Mike
Subject: RE: Hi, Steve — Steve Brown Etc. contact form

And by the way, I was serious when I said I love you as a member of the body of Christ. I think you're mean and blind to how messed up you are and the damage you're doing to the body of Christ by being that way. I don't like that, but I fully expect to spend eternity with you and look forward to it.

And yes, I'm a jerk too. Isn't it great that God's grace is bigger than our sin! The more I focus on His love for me, the less of a jerk I am. If you think I've been snotty with you today, you should have seen me before God loved me so well. I really am getting better. That's the result of grace, not a focus on sin.

Erik November 5th, 2007

And thanks for your prayers.

jefe November 5th, 2007

Jeez erik… you're so unreasonable.

Stalker!

Erik November 5th, 2007

I'm going to adopt that as my new moniker, Stalker Eric.

greg from canada November 5th, 2007

How about "the merry stalker of love"…. mmmm… maybe not

Zeke November 5th, 2007

I tend to think of gays as the canaries in the coal mine of evangelicals' dark side. This issue always brings out our very worst fears and insecurities.

For instance, the blogger Andrew Sullivan recently asked a very telling question of Republican males (of whom evangelicals are a significant percentage): Would you have sex with a man to prevent a terrorist attack?

The context here is that one may be prepared to kill or even torture innocent people to save us from a terrorist attack (as we have proven very willing to do)… but would you commit a homosexual act to stop one? An absurd potentiality of course, but it's challenging in the right way I think.

Erik November 7th, 2007

Pitching or catching?

susan November 9th, 2007

I am confused as to how I should react. If we are to forgive those we feel are living in sin, Gays and lesbians, how can we not judge their sinfulness? I am curious because I have a friend whose sister is Gay and flaunts it like it is a new coat; and yet my friend laughs off her sisters lifestyle as she calls it and makes fun of her, and makes everyone else feel repugnant and acts as if shes not bothered by it but she is. My friend sister is gay and she makes everyone feel uncomfortable talking about her sisters lifestyle (Lesbian). I feel in time GOD will work things out in all their lives and change their live. But comparing the one sin of gossip with another, homosexuality; and down casting one when they all are sinning, makes me uncomfortable being around those so called friends, and they ahev a picnic talking about their own siblings. Makes me feel as if I have to be on guard
and I have cut off that relationship because of it. For the oen sister was making me feel very uncomfortable because of her "starting" to talk about her sibling, and putting me n the middle of her two sisters, and not wanting to dwell on how they were "making out' and their lifves and how they were living; hearing them talk of it all the time, made me question their motivations. I felt it was a battle of who was going to put this lifestyle down first. And alway saying shes so and and making fun of her. I did not think it was right to even talk about her. as if she was the devil herself. And I dont feel it is my job to condemn her. But what I do feel is the sister who goes around and tells others about her sisters sinfulness is just as sinful. Am I wrong to not feel that it is NOT my job to tell her that? I dont think I should be condemning anyone. Am I wrong to not say it is sin? I am truly confused for I know it is sin, but do I have to condemn it just becasue it is? I dont feel it is my job to condemn anyone. I stopped talking to this friend because she and her younger sister have laid their guilt of their feelings on me and that is what I dont understand. Why are they making me feel guilty for her sister's sin's? They brought it up and then say I did, but I did not even know she was GAY until they brought it up. I would like to be able to clarify what sin is, but without making my friend seem as if she has to defend her sisters sinfulness by making it my own. For I dont have any homosexual tendancies yet, I wish I had a friend that was that loving to care enough to show their love as ehr sister does. For she is not afraid to show her love. I feel the one sister was being selfish in making me feel guilty for even talking about it, but she brought the conversation up, and I just said I do not condemn anyone, for we all sin. And I wanted to say it is sin, but so was talking about her sister when she was not even there to defend herself. She was even sinning talking about her sister when her sister was not even present. I felt she was on an ego trip and wanted to puff up her own rightsouness over her own sisters sinfulness. I just ended the conversation with I do not get involved. Was I wrong to end the conversation? For I felt I am not to be the one to judge anyone; for we all sin and fall short of the glory of GOD and I did not want to discuss what I was not prepared to. So how can you not talk about something as "sensnitive" as such sinfulness when we all do sin? How can one be preapred to deal with such a topic? For I am sure we have no understanding of what love is let alone what is lustfulness which is sin. But is not gossip just as bad a sinful act as lust? It was because of this very conversation I did not want to have any more contact with this friend.For I felt it just created tension in the relationship. I was not about to continue a conversation that I felt was justa s sinful as her sisters homosexuality. I felt it was best to walk away than to entertain the conversation. Because it soon became a blame game and I did not want to play. so tell me how can one talk about such things and still give God the glory? How do you condemn sin if your still living in sin? Just because one is viewed with less enthusiasm, why should we just condemn the homosexual? Is not gossip just as sinful? You cant measure love but I feel you sure can emasure sinfulness.ist all around us…even Christians sin, so why are they pointing the finger just at the obvious sinfulness?

susan November 9th, 2007

I pray all Homosexuals and sinners come to Christ eventually. In Yeshua's name

George November 9th, 2007

Susan,

God judges sin. Not us. We are to love the sinner, but not the sin.

Jesus is the issue. For a non-Christian they have to answer two basic questions. Who is Jesus? And what is my relationship with Him?

After that, it is God's job to convict us, change us and to make us his people. We are to encourage one another and help our brothers and sisters see if they are in sin, but God is the one who convicts and changes.

We are all sinners. Galatians is great to read. But look at Galatians 5:19-21 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like."

If we are to single out gays, we must in good conscience also focus on those who hate, or are selfish or are envious.

If being with them makes you stumble in your walk with the Lord, then I would suggest you voice your love for your friend and suggest that you not spend as much time together.

I'm not an expert. Hope this helps.

Daniel November 9th, 2007

My bible says love the sinner and hate my own sin…

Keith November 20th, 2007

I think it's interesting that alot of people mentioned the inconsistency of singling out homosexuality among the other things listed in Galatians. I think somehow we have relegated much of the list to "my own business" and items like homosexuality to be sins of another for all of us to discuss and pass judgement on (which by the way Daniel, I like the way you put it above). If the answer is that some are personal sins, not involving an acting out that directly affects others…well that's just not true. Even envy can be cancerous in families and relationships with very direct felt impact. Also, where greed is concerned, someone mentioned that it might be different if there were people who were openly embracing a lifestyle of greediness or selfishness while claiming to be Christians. Aren't there boatloads of Christians who do this though? Why are we so free to call homosexual Christians to account for a sin that they absolve themselves of, but behave as if it would some how be uncouth to reproof a Christian salesman who is bragging to a fellow churchgoer in the narthex (I love that crazy word!) after a service about how much he managed to make on a deal…or politicians (Republicans and Democrats alike…but mostly you know who ha ha) who trumpet their faith to the four corners but consistently pass legislation that defends the wealthy and ignores or harms the poor in the name of fiscal responsibility? Isn't this more than just a little inconsistent? If we were so concerned about the splinter in every other brother and sister's eyes, then we had best make a full time career of locating and pointing out everyone's sins. Or…we could do as Jesus says and work on our own vision wrecking 2 by 4.

Patrick Burwell November 20th, 2007

"If we were so concerned about the splinter in every other brother and sister's eyes, then we had best make a full time career of locating and pointing out everyone's sins. Or…we could do as Jesus says and work on our own vision wrecking"

There's only one problem with that statement, Jesus never said any such thing.
See, Jesus made it really clear to Judge… wisely. Never once did He say we should not judge at all. The "wisely" part comes in knowing what Standard you measure yourself against and others along the way.
Begin with your self and in knowing you always fall short then you can graciously show the same Standard to another and set them free as they enter the Sabbath rest that is Jesus, the Mercy of God from the Letter of the Law.
And, btw, to not want to see a man bound up in the deviance called homosexuality delivered is sin in itself. Should you tell a sinner they are a sinner? ABSOLUTELY!
Show the the Law that they may see themselves as God sees them, not as you do, and when they are humbled show them the Mercy of God in the sacrifice of His Son. But don;t let's be sol silly as to think we shouldn't mention their sin because it's politically incorrect to "judge" them, lest you let others run off the cliff with them. Sure you may not get through at first put you can surely plant the Truth in them the Spirit of God can nurture to salvation!

Don't be afraid to call a lie for what it is because some say it is truth.

Erik November 20th, 2007

Patrick,

Do you really believe there are any homosexuals at this point that aren't fully aware that Christians think they are living in sin? I can't imagine that being news to anyone.

On the contrary, I believe we have done an exceptional and efficient job of informing people that they are sinners (as a set up to the gospel of course). That message has been preached loud and clear.

When we get just as ambitious about the message of grace…maybe then people will need to be reminded about what they're saved from. But we ain't there yet. Just getting started.

dorsey November 21st, 2007

Patrick,

"Jesus never said any such thing. See, Jesus made it really clear to Judge… wisely. Never once did He say we should not judge at all."

Where do you get this idea?

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged." (Matt 7:1).

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

"Don't be afraid to call a lie for what it is because some say it is truth."

Thanks for the tip.

G-Rock November 21st, 2007

debates like this make me wanna become an atheist, or a buddhist…

you don't hear them debate about these things that often…

there's no fundamentalist or emergent buddhist, or charismatic atheist (unless your elton john)…

in the wise words of relient k:

"Christians– we're all afraid of fire.
We prefer to suck on pacifiers.
Baby pacifists, we're throwing fits.
We don't shake hands, we shake our fists.

We're cannibals.
We watch our brothers fall.
We eat our own, the bones and all.

Finally fell asleep on the plane
to wake to see we're going down in flames.

We're going down, down, down in flames.
We're gonna drown, drown, drown insane.

We see the problem and the risk,
but nothing's solved.
We just say, "Tisk, tisk, tisk,"
and, "Shame, shame, shame."

Finally fell asleep on the plane
to wake to see we're going down in flames.

Let's go!

Christians– we mourn, the thorn is stuck
in the side of the body watch it self-destruct.
The enemy is much ignored
when we fight this Christian civil war.

We're cannibals.
We watch our brothers fall.
We eat our own, the bones and all.

Finally fell asleep on the plane
to wake to see we're going down in flames.

We're going down, down, down in flames.
We're gonna drown, drown, drown insane."

Charles November 21st, 2007

Steve nailed it way up above.

Sin is sin, whether it is homosexuality or self-righteousness towards homosexuality, getting fat, mean, drunk, super annoying, etc. WIthout God's grace and forgiveness in Christ, these things are all compulsory MetroCards to everlasting contempt. And that train is crammed full of 'self-righteous' commuters. Some of them may be gay, fat, mean or annoying…all rejected forgiveness because they either didn't think they needed it or couldn't believe it was true or both.

Why do we want to make homosexuality so much worse? Because it scares us. Our safe little world may crumble from decay….not realizing our own contribution to the decay.

I say, bring in the decay! Let it all rip! Augustine said bye-bye to Rome and barring Jesus returing, alot of believers are going to have to say the same for western civ. Everything shakes except the unshakable until that is all that is left so we can see the Unshakable better.

I am going to make it a spiritual discipline to not micro manage any homosexual I meet. I may not like their lifestyle, but making it my goal to make them as mean as me has been -1,000% effective so far. Maybe I should stop being their Mother, start being their friend and pray they know Him better than I do, rather than change their mind about sex….and leave the rest to Him.

That's not lowering the bar. That's recognizing the bar, bowing to it and realizing it ain't me.

Patrick Burwell November 25th, 2007

I'll let my friend Brandon Howse answer you Dorsey. No point in chewing the cud twice:
———————————–
Please don't quote the verse "judge not lest you be judged" unless you use it correctly. Most people don't use it correctly. The Bible calls for us to judge the teachings, actions, doctrine and fruit of a person's life. The Bible only warns against passing judgment on their soul. For a correct understanding of this verse as well as Matthew 18, which many quote incorrectly, please read these articles:

Understanding the meaning of "judge not lest you be judged"
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php?&ArticleID=151

The correct use of Matthew 18
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php?&ArticleID=552
———————————–
Erik,
Barna polls, among with other such reliable sources of information as the empirical evidence gleaned by D. James Kennedy and the Billy Graham Association about their own crusade results, not only show we have done a LOUSY job of Biblically sharing our faith by explaining sin first to make Grace amazing, but these polls, and empirical evidence I have gleaned personally from hundreds of interviews conducted by me over the last two years, also clearly indicate we have a huge percentage of pew warmers professing christianity but are not Christians, as the Bible defines them. The evidence shows an alarming 90% of professing christianity in the USA are false converts who came to Jesus for what they could get (life enhancement) not out of a gratitude borne from a humble submission to Jesus in repentance for their sin.
For a better understanding of this listen or watch http://hellsbestkeptsecret.com and then click on "True and False Conversion" to watch or hear that.

Or take the good person test yourself and see if you arent one of those people yourself… as I found I was…
http://onlyjesussaves.com/good

Then seek the lost while you still can.
Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

dorsey November 26th, 2007

"The Bible only warns against passing judgment on their soul."

Patrick, I agree that neither you nor I can ascertain the condition of a soul.

"The evidence shows an alarming 90% of professing christianity in the USA are false converts who came to Jesus for what they could get (life enhancement) not out of a gratitude borne from a humble submission to Jesus in repentance for their sin."

So what the heck was that, if not judging their souls? Do you have any other friends who can explain it to me?

Ellen November 26th, 2007

Just found out about Steve's ETC. and have been reading this section on Homosexuality. I've been acquainted with Steve's ministry [keylife] for many years. Met him in California [Fair Oaks] twice. Even have a photo of us together.

Gave my life to Jesus in 1976. Around 2003, I had to come to the realization I was Gay [Lesbian]. Fought it all my life. I have so much to say but will try and keep it as brief as possible.

Believe me, I struggled with my discovery. I'm thankful for the Net because I needed to search for the REAL truth. Many of you will say I'm living in sin. I went to evangelical / pentecostal / fundamentalist / and assembly of God churches since 1976 but when I realized I AM a Lesbian, well . . . . you know I would NOT be accepted at ANY of those churches. Funny, if Jesus was the pastor of ANY of those churches, I KNOW He would NOT have turned me away, yet ANY of the residing pastors, if I had confess my gender preference, I can guarantee those pastors AND congregation members would have found a [appropriate] way to throw me out. How ironic: Jesus would let me stay, but YOU, when you found out WHO I was find a way to "get rid of me." I mean what kind of influence would I have on the children!!

I found a UCC in Auburn CA where I lived at the time that accepted me for who I was AND LOVED JESUS too!! Couldn't ask for more!
I now live in WA and go to a Unitarian Universalist church. They have different views of Jesus BUT they accept me AND my female partner.

But in my search back in CA., I found that the Bible has been more mis-translated then mis-interpreted. Let me explain: As we know, there are several translations of the Bible: NASB [my fav], NIV, KJV & NKJ, etc..
BUT . . . . .
Many words from the Hebrew and the Greek were not translated properly. I'm no scholar of these languages and trust other experts as we all do. I found the following links VERY helpful in enlightening my research:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblnt.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblot.htm

http://www.whosoever.org/editorial/editorial.html

Steps to Recovery from Bible Abuse (Paperback)
by Rembert S. Truluck (Author)

Also too, at the Nicene Counsel, the books to be included in the Bible were chosen. Remember, these are men just like you and me, with human frailties, limitations, preferences etc.. I know the scripture that the word is "God Breathed" but like I said, the books were chosen: on what criteria [just a rhetorical question ~ no need to answer]. Certain books were NOT chosen, again based on a "certain" criteria. That criteria was "created" FROM the minds of humans and we KNOW we are NOT perfect, which is what "sin" means. I even heard Steve [and believe me, I love & respect him] say that the definition of sins is that we "fall short of the mark of perfection which is God."

From my research, I KNOW I am NOT living in sin living with and loving another woman. AND I KNOW Jesus LOVES me just as I am [well, yes, we are transformed daily as the word says].

I know from more research that many evangelicals are turning to the "Gospel of Inclusion" as it is called [those who accept the GLBT folks in their churches]. One being Carlton Pearson. I used to listen to his ministry on TV and then heard his story on NPR about his "epiphany" and transformation to acceptance of GLBT folks as "saved" just like any Christian who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior. There are more. But his story is much like others who accept us as saved from the blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Look, I want to keep this dialogue going. I've read almost the entire blog and know there will be many of you still referring to me as living in sin. Believe me, I struggled with this enough and know I'm saved: that Jesus is my Lord & Savior and that He loves me JUST as I am.

Please peruse the web references above and "google" "Rembert Truluck" he has much to say that is VERY insightful.

Ellen

Patrick Burwell November 26th, 2007

"From my research, I KNOW I am NOT living in sin living with and loving another woman. AND I KNOW Jesus LOVES me just as I am [well, yes, we are transformed daily as the word says]. "

Ellen,
It is clearly written in the Bible that such actions is judged by God to be sin. No amount of self deprecation on my part will make your sin any less a violation of God's Law. And, just like me, you must surrender ALL to Jesus, not just what you want to.
I had to give up on marrying a young lady I dearly loved in repentance over my sin with her that I could recieve His Sacrifice and be made clean. I never got to marry her after that. It was a price I had to pay for my submission to His will. And so you must also determine what is more important, Ellen.
Is your emotion and your desire more important than what God says? If you look hard enough and run to enough people you WILL eventually find someone who will tickle your ears with the lies you so desperately want to hear just to stop the itching that comes from the reality bugging you, for you know in your conscience what is true.
Ellen, we must all come to the end of ourselves. That is the point.
Either you do so here in this life and be rescued by your utter faith in Jesus, accepting that His ways are always right, or, the Bible promises you shall spend an eternity in Hell with only your self, knowing He is right.

I pray you will submit to His will for you.

Take the Good Person Test, at http://thegoodpersontest.com, and see that your sins of sexual misconduct are not the only violations that make you worthy of your punishment of Hell, but your lieing also; and your stealing; and your covetousness; and your idolatry.

Wait, did I say idolatry? Yes, i d o l a t r y.
See, Ellen, you have violated the Second Commandment right here in this forum by making a god up in your own mind; a god that will overlook your sin and not send you to the Hell you deserve, just like the rest of us.
Your god is not REAL ellen, You have made an idol you can be comfortable in your sins with. And your god has not given his own son to save you either.
What you see now, Ellen, as condemnation is really a pleading to see you surrender and Be Free If You Want To Be. Freed from your depraved mind, just like I have been; Freed from your fears of impending judgement; Freed from your terror of God's anger, which you know is hanging over your head like an axe waiting to fall.
God wants to save you Ellen but you must turn from ALL your sins and submit your ways to Jesus. If He is not in CONTROL of your life then you are not His.
There is no other way, Ellen. Only Jesus Saves.
I pray you hear the Truth. Because no amount of denial will change the fact of what Jesus has said, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way." (Luke 13:3 -WEB -http://onlyjesussaves.com/web/Luke.htm#C13V3)

Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

Ellen November 27th, 2007

[Oy Vey] Patrick,
Was anticipating just such a reply. Let me state more specifics from the research I've done. Can you at least have an open enough mind to investigate what I'm going to tell you? I remember Paul stating that the Bereans searched the scriptures day and night to see if what he told them was true. All I ask is that you search the research to see if what I say is true.

1. First of all, the word "homosexuality" [and derivatives] didn't come into existence until 1860. BTW, King James was bisexual though he had nothing to do with writing the KJV Bible. Just a BTW.

2. The Sodom & Gommorah situation had NOTHING to do sexuality/sexual orientation. Firstly, a Sodomite was a person who LIVED in Sodom, like any-town-USA, if you live in a town, you are a ******ite. I lived in Auburn CA and was an "AuburnITE."
Genesis 19:5:
"Bring them out to us that we may know them." "Know" simply means know! No hint at homosexuality exists in the original Hebrew. No later Bible references to Sodom ever mention homosexuality as the sin of Sodom. Many modern translations add words to the text to create the lie that the people of Sodom were homosexual.
No Jewish scholars before the first Christian century taught that the sin of Sodom was sexual. None of the biblical references to Sodom mention sexual sins but view Sodom as an example of injustice, and lack of hospitality to strangers.

3. Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."
Both of these verses refer NOT to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks.

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the Levitical laws. Leviticus 11:1-12 states all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others. Many other "health" restrictions are stated because of the "times." Today, people eat ALL those "forbidden" foods, wear forbidden clothe, have sex the wrong time of the month, and what parent today would stone their own child [after throwing them into a pre-dug pit] for committing "any" sin! There are many other Levitical laws we do NOT uphold today. Why is that I wonder? We all saw Jesus break some Levitical laws: healing [the Phareses looked at it as "work"] on the Sabbath. Hey, David eating the "showbread." And more, we all know God's word!

4. Romans 1:26-27:
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions: for their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against nature. And in the same way also the men abandoned the natural use of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error."
All of this refers to idolatrous religious practices that were common in the time of Paul.

Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, etc..
Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said. As 2 Peter 3:16-18 pointed out, we have to be on guard against using Paul's writings in unhealthy and destructive ways.

5. [In other NT scriptures]
"Soft" does not mean "effeminate." The word translated "effeminate in 1 Corinthians 6:9 is Greek malakoi and means "soft" or "vulnerable." The word is translated as "soft" in reference to clothing in Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 and as "illness" in Matthew 4:23 and 9:35. It is not used anywhere else in the New Testament and carries no hint of reference to sexual orientation. Malakoi in 1 Corinthians 6:9 probably refers those who are "soft," "pliable," "unreliable," or "without courage or stability." The translation of malakoi as "effeminate" is incorrect, ignorant, degrading to women, and impossible to justify based on ancient usage compared to the meaning of "effeminate" today.

This incorrect rendering of malakoi and arsenokoites as references to gender orientation has been disastrous for millions of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual people. This mistaken translation has enlisted religious fanatics against homosexual people and has turned many Lesbians and Gays against the Bible, which holds for them as for ALL people the good news of God's love in Christ.

Hey, I could go on, but I ask ALL of you to please refer to the links in my previous entry and investigate for yourselves. See if MAYBE what I am referring to could possibly be true. Can we think outside our prejudice boxes for once!?
Good Grief! Slavery in Paul's time was condoned. [Philemon]. Just simply consider the times, it was part of their culture. We don't uphold certain Levitical laws but USE other Levitical laws to condemn. How sad.
Patrick, I still KNOW I'm saved by HIS blood . You haven't told me anything new or that I haven't heard already. However, I have presented you with some criteria that deserves at least some investigation on your part. I know my Bible. Some of the info I have quoted here comes from someone who has memorized several books of the Bible INCLUDING Romans and has studied the Bible with diligence [as Paul instructs us to do]. Another BTW, Hank Hanegraaff, probably 25 years ago memorized Revelation. What a feat!!
I say all this in kindness and don't mean any negative feelings toward you or anyone who "disapproves" of my life style.

Ellen

Patrick Burwell November 27th, 2007

Ellen, What you "know" is that the Bible is true. What you are doing, however, with the Bible is called Eisegesis (and idolatry).
Eisegesis is cramming your meaning into what you read instead of reading hermeneutically. (And the idolatry part, as I explained before, is making God into what you want Him to be not who He is.)
Ellen, simply put, you are a sinner. And, unless you repent and trust Jesus to save you, letting Christ change your heart in the process, you will be one of those that cry "Lord, Lord" on Judgement Day. And Jesus will tell you He doesn't know you then because He doesn't know you now.
How do I know this about you? Your "apple" tree has lemons,
You cannot continue to actively engage in what the Bible calls sin and still claim to be a Christian.
I played that game for years until I learned the truth. Only THEN, when I surrendured what I thought and wanted and believed was right and trusted in what the Bible said, only then did I have truth, see my sin for what it was and agree with God what must be done.
You know homosexuality, adultery and any sex outside of marriage is sin. The Biblical definition of marriage is a covenant union between a man and a woman.
Try all you want to make it anything else and you will only be lieing to yourself.

May you come to the end of yourself and your own "knowledge" and see the Truth. There is no other way.

Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

Zeke November 28th, 2007

Never heard that one before, Patrick.

Christov November 28th, 2007

Maybe Ellen's relying upon the finished work of Christ, and nothing else, for her salvation. What then?

Mark November 28th, 2007

Hi Patrick -

I'm trying to understand your point of view. You said:

"You cannot continue to actively engage in what the Bible calls sin and still claim to be a Christian."

Can you explain this a little further?

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

So, Ellen, how are we to reconcile what you say with what the Bible says (ie. that homosexuality is a sin and that those who continue on in a lifestyle of deliberate, unrepentant sin are not born again)?

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

So, Ellen, how are we to reconcile what you say with what the Bible says (ie. that homosexuality is a sin and that those who continue on in a lifestyle of deliberate, unrepentant sin are not born again)?

[Amended to invite the usual suspects to begin their inevitable round of name calling and false accusations]

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]Maybe Ellen's relying upon the finished work of Christ, and nothing else, for her salvation. What then?[/quote]

Unless she just grossly misunderstands what it means to be born again, how can she refuse to repent of her sin but then say that she's relying on the "finished work of Christ"?

Is this some kind of Universalism you're suggesting? Or is it (most likely) the fruition of the "go ahead and sin" mentality of KeyLife?

You may now feel free to begin calling me names and making false accusations against me.

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]You cannot continue to actively engage in what the Bible calls sin and still claim to be a Christian.[/quote]

I agree. That's exactly what the Bible says.

Ellen November 28th, 2007

Have any of you AT LEAST checked out the references in my above posts:??
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblnt.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblot.htm

http://www.whosoever.org/editorial/editorial.html

Steps to Recovery from Bible Abuse (Paperback)
by Rembert S. Truluck (Author)

I at least, have read my Bible [many times over] and I do trust those who are more scholarly then I. Especially those who are accredited. Are any of you here scholars of Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic languages? If so, what are your credentials?

Like I've said, I've heard ALL your arguments before, nothing new. All I ask is if you check out the above references and come back with a NEW debate.
Folks like Carlton Pearson and churches like the United Church of Christ didn't come to the same conclusions as I did [re: Gospel of Inclusion] without first investigating how and if it is true. Let's hear a NEW debate, please!!

Ellen

Erik November 28th, 2007

I don't know if you're gonna get any kind of debate Ellen (new or old). Most likely you'll just get an argument.

Christov November 28th, 2007

Hey, MikeMcK,

What I'm saying is simply this: If you're trusting in the salvific efficacy of your own repentence, the salvific efficacy (as if it had any real depth in relation to the finished work of Christ - or as if a right understanding of same were a prerequisite for salvation) of your own understanding, then you are condemned.

What was it that Luther or some other reformer said - something like, "All man brings (to the transaction, if transaction it is, that results in man's salvation) is resistance and sin."

I've read the arguments Ellen brings to this discussion of the sinfulness or rightness of homosexual activity, and don't find them compelling. On the other hand, the value of an activity is not essential.

What is essential is whether God is able to save without non-Christ human aid. I'll go on record here as saying the man Christ Jesus is fully human and fully God.

BTW, Ellen didn't say she was relying solely upon the finished work of Christ, I suggested she may be, and if she is, what then? I think Ellen's clear that she doesn't want to sin or mock God or his word, she's evidently (and Ellen, correct me if I'm wrong) seeking to develop an understanding of God's word, of God, that includes the human affections and relationships she values and to which she clings. Her understanding of God is not my understanding of God, but I think God is capable of sorting us both out.

So I guess what I'd like you to answer is what does it mean to be born again? Is there a process, a series of steps from dead in sin to alive in Christ? Describe the process. Can it happen without proper theological understanding? Can it happen without a both blanket-and-every-specific repentance?

Daniel November 28th, 2007

To be saved is to accept Christ as Lord, after that you cultivate a relationship. There isn't anything else to it, other than what man has added.

Ellen, I did read those sites and I found them lack-luster. They don't really support your case, they just make it a little ambiguous.

You should speak with SB, maybe he can get you in touch with someone from Harvest USA, they do a lot of work in the homosexual, (and sexuality in general), arena. They may understand where you are and how you feel more than someone who isn't in your shoes.(Like most of us here).

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]Have any of you AT LEAST checked out the references in my above posts:??[/quote]

Honestly? No. If the Bible says that it's wrong, then why do we need to read websites that are just going to tell us that the Bible is wrong?

[quote]I at least, have read my Bible [many times over] and I do trust those who are more scholarly then I.[/quote]

Even if they show you that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and those who continue on in sin are not born again?

[quote]Are any of you here scholars of Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic languages?[/quote]

Somewhat. I'll admit my knowledge of Hebrew isn't perfect, but I have a good working knowledge of it. My Greek is much better.

[quote]If so, what are your credentials?[/quote]

I studied under a team of good and Godly men for several years. I apprenticed preaching and theology under them. I've taken several courses through SEBTS and am currently enrolled in a local Bible college that has a fine regional reputation.

I am currently an elder at a local Baptist church and have been on the ministry team of this church and my previous church for a total of just over ten years.

[quote]Folks like Carlton Pearson and churches like the United Church of Christ didn't come to the same conclusions as I did [re: Gospel of Inclusion] without first investigating how and if it is true. Let's hear a NEW debate, please!![/quote]

In all fairness, even before Pearson came up with his unbiblical doctrines about homosexuality, he was the center of controversy when his colleagues, (including Christian lounge singer, Carman, who had considered Pearson a mentor) abandoned him because of various heretical teachings. So I don't know if Carlton Pearson is really somebody you want to hitch your wagon to.

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]If you're trusting in the salvific efficacy of your own repentence, the salvific efficacy of your own understanding, then you are condemned. [/quote]

Repentance doesn't save, but it is required for salvation.

[quote]I think Ellen's clear that she doesn't want to sin or mock God or his word, she's evidently seeking to develop an understanding of God's word[/quote]

I don't sense that. It looks like she's already made her mind up and isn't really interested in seeking to develop anything, except to shore up her own defense of her behavior.

[quote]Her understanding of God is not my understanding of God, but I think God is capable of sorting us both out.[/quote]

But is it a Biblical understanding of God?

[quote]So I guess what I'd like you to answer is what does it mean to be born again?[/quote]

To be dead to sin and raised to new life in Christ.

[quote]Is there a process, a series of steps from dead in sin to alive in Christ?[/quote]

Repentance and faith in Christ's atonement on the cross on our behalf.

[quote]Can it happen without proper theological understanding?[/quote]

In theory, yes.

We're not saved by doctrine, but our doctrine will determine whether or not we're putting our faith in the Jesus that saves, or a Jesus of our own making, and whether or not we understand what God requires of us to be saved.

Erik November 28th, 2007

MikeMcK,

Do you believe God requires us to stop sinning to be saved?

Charles November 30th, 2007

I wouldn't dare call Ellen's salvation into question because she chooses a lifestyle I don't agree with.

I probably have a life style God doesn't agree with either. On some level, we all do…no sense picking on one over the rest.

But here is my deal….the gay lifestyle seems to be the single defining point for those who support it. It would seem very strange for me to introduce myself to an audience as a prominent heterosexual. It would be weird to do that. So why use sexuality as the key definition of who I am?

I think it boils down to what is your fulcrum for life. If it is anything other than leaning on and following Christ, then the fulcrum is off. That could be sexual preference or over eating. When it isn't Christ, then what we choose to define ourself becomes what we want out of every aspect of life. Forget gay….just look at politics. Someone who considers conservative values as the fulcrum defining their essence make sure there is only conservative friends, churches, television, underwear, etc. No different than the gay community….placing something other than Christ where only He belongs. We are defined by Him, whether we admit it or not. We can learn that the hard way or the easy way, but we will learn….and if it goes hard (and it does for me) it is not His fault.

MikeMcK November 30th, 2007

[quote]I wouldn't dare call Ellen's salvation into question because she chooses a lifestyle I don't agree with.[/quote]

What do 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 say?

Erik November 30th, 2007

2 Corinthians 13:12 "Greet one another with a holy kiss."

Maybe some believers just take that scripture very seriously.

Daniel November 30th, 2007

Excellent points Charles!

Charles November 30th, 2007

Good points Mike, but….

1 John 1:8

How do you suppose we reconcile those verses by the same author, in the same letter?

Anyone who no longer 'continues in sin' as you interpret it, would fall guilty of those who claim to be without sin and do not have the truth in them.

Study that some. That and 1 John 3:11-15.

MikeMcK November 30th, 2007

[quote]Good points Mike, but….

1 John 1:8

How do you suppose we reconcile those verses by the same author, in the same letter?

Anyone who no longer 'continues in sin' as you interpret it, would fall guilty of those who claim to be without sin and do not have the truth in them.

Study that some. That and 1 John 3:11-15.[/quote]

Two different things. Everybody sins, even those who are born again. The difference is that there is a world of difference between those who sin in the course of a lifestyle of willful disobedience and unrepentance, and those who are born again, who have repented of their sins, but sin as a matter of a moral lapse.

The passage I cited talks about those who continue not only to sin, but to [i]serve[/i] sin. They serve the flesh.

The one you're citing is reassuring those who are born again, who serve God, but who still find themselves battling sin because their flesh still carries the echos of the carnal man.

At the very least, the Bible says, there should be a war in a Christian's members. That is, when we sin, there should be something in us that screams to stop. There should be the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

This person is, evidently, not waging this war, but is actually bragging about her sin and standing behind it.

Charles November 30th, 2007

Can a believer in Christ truly be a believer without ever repenting of contempt for a family member, distrust of God with a rebellious child or job, selfishness in the workplace, masterbating to internet porn when left alone in the house, etc?

What about severed relationships where both parties love Jesus but absolutely refuse to reconcile or live in peace with one another, even though they are clearly commanded to do so? Are they really saved?

According to the same letter, based on your interpretation, they are not saved but are lost.

You can't single out one sin and make it scripturally unpardonable without casting yourself into hell too, whether you do that the Arminian way or the Reformed way. Hating Rick Warren or John MacArthur (even though we would never admit it) is as much a sin as sexually cohabitating with the same gender.

You could consider another interpretation….that what John is talking about is living with a love for sin without any spiritual misery in that love at all.

You have no idea who those people really are, because no one knows another person's heart like they know their own.

So John isn't writing this information about other people, like 'homosexuals' or 'drug addicts'. He is writing that about me (and you) as encouragement and a confidence builder. Are we truly saved? Am I truly saved? Even though I won't admit to it right now (or maybe ever), even though I live in contempt towards another and refuse to repent, I am miserable over it and realize that is all I can expect unless I can nail it to the cross….but even if I don't, the situation is not good and I can actually rejoice in the confidence that even though I am stubborn, I belong to Him.

But then again….maybe the entire Gospel is about managing our sin and everyone elses. If so, then maybe I should check into Buddhism

MikeMcK November 30th, 2007

[quote]Can a believer in Christ truly be a believer without ever repenting of contempt for a family member, distrust of God with a rebellious child or job, selfishness in the workplace, masterbating to internet porn when left alone in the house, etc?

What about severed relationships where both parties love Jesus but absolutely refuse to reconcile or live in peace with one another, even though they are clearly commanded to do so? Are they really saved?

According to the same letter, based on your interpretation, they are not saved but are lost.[/quote]

Yeah, if they don't repent, but continue to choose to serve sin over Christ, they're lost. That's not what I say, that's what God says.

Christov November 30th, 2007

So we can lose our salvation?

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

No. Not according to the Bible.

Zeke December 1st, 2007

Yeah, if they don't repent, but continue to choose to serve sin over Christ, they're lost. That's not what I say, that's what God says.

Ever put any thought to the sin that you serve, MikeMcK? You may rejoice that God didn't make you like those wretched homosexuals, but you are consistently unpleasant to experience here on these boards. That show up anywhere else for you?

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

[quote]Ever put any thought to the sin that you serve, MikeMcK?[/quote]

I don't believe I do serve sin. If you do, then why don't you, in the loving and humble manner that the Bible tells us to, tell me what it is?

[quote] You may rejoice that God didn't make you like those wretched homosexuals[/quote]

You might think that homosexuals are "wretched", and they are, but here's something that might come as a shock to you: so are you!

Everyone of us is wretched before God, apart from the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account. You need to remember that next time you look down your nose at homosexuals.

As for me, I can relate to the homosexual because I'm in the same boat (er, sort of). I may not be attracted to the same sex, like they are, but I have no less a responsibility to bring my sexuality and my sexual behavior under submission to Christ.

They've fornicated. I've fornicated. They've committed adultery, I've committed adultery. So, I can't sit back and judge them by any harsher standard than I would be willing to be judged by, myself.

Neither can you. Next time you're tempted to look down your nose at the homosexual and call him "wretched", remember that God has not called you to remind him of his wretchedness, but of Christ's righteousness.

[quote]but you are consistently unpleasant to experience here on these boards.[/quote]

As are you.

That show up anywhere else for you?

Zeke December 1st, 2007

Neither can you. Next time you're tempted to look down your nose at the homosexual and call him "wretched", remember that God has not called you to remind him of his wretchedness, but of Christ's righteousness.

Wow, I wasn't being literal. Guess you missed that. I suppose I should have put "" around wretched, because I don't think that about them. But as for "loving and humble," brother you are nothing like that. Argumentative and accusatory, consistently.

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

[quote]Wow, I wasn't being literal. Guess you missed that. I suppose I should have put "" around wretched, because I don't think that about them. But as for "loving and humble," brother you are nothing like that. Argumentative and accusatory, consistently.[/quote]

Actually, I'm not. I haven't accused you of anything, nor have I argued with you any more than to just disagree with you.

Whatever I've done, it's certainly been better than the way you people have treated me.

Funny that I don't have this problem with anybody but a couple of people here.

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

Like Eric, Zeke, I didn't even address you. You're the one who chose to jump all over me without any provocation.

Erik December 2nd, 2007

MikeMcK,

Please stay on the topic of homosexuals and the Church. Of course this can include, among other things, discussions of sin and how we treat people. However, your last two posts have been exclusively personal in nature.

I've started a MikeMcK thread on the Forums in Purgatory. That's a good place for interaction of a more personal nature. I hope you'll join me there MikeMcK.

Charles December 3rd, 2007

Mike: "I don't believe I do serve sin."

This is what is called an impass.

MikeMcK December 3rd, 2007

[quote]Mike: "I don't believe I do serve sin."

This is what is called an impass.[/quote]

I'll tell you the same thing I told Eric and the other one when they accused me of the same thing you're implying:

If you think I'm involved in some sort of unrepentant sin, tell me what it is. Better yet, PM me and I'll give you my pastor's email and you can tell him.

Charles December 3rd, 2007

Unrelenting pride. Same as me.

Why do you think we are here trying to fix one another? Because we love each other? Seriously…

You want me to tattle to your pastor about your pride problem? What's he going to do about it, withold the grape juice and cracker? He's probably ate up with it too….even more so.

"He who has been forgiven much, loves much. He who has been forgiven little, loves little."

MikeMcK December 3rd, 2007

[quote]Unrelenting pride. Same as me. [/quote]

OK. So, can you give an example of this, or do you just make accusations like Eric and Zeke and not feel the need to back them up?

[quote]Why do you think we are here trying to fix one another? Because we love each other? Seriously…[/quote]

I'm not trying to "fix" anybody.

[quote]You want me to tattle to your pastor about your pride problem?[/quote]

No, I want you to do what Jesus said to do when you confront someone (I was going to say "a brother", but it's clear that you people don't consider me your brother and that's just fine with me) with their sin (or, in this case, alleged sin) and they won't respond.

[quote]What's he going to do about it, withold the grape juice and cracker?[/quote]

Good to know that you hold the Lord's Supper in such high esteem.

[quote]He's probably ate up with it too….even more so.[/quote]

Actually, I've known him for about ten years and he's one of the most humble men I know. Of course, that probably won't stop you from slandering him, too.

Erik December 3rd, 2007

I've started a MikeMcK thread on the Forums in Purgatory. That's a good place for interaction of a more personal nature. I hope you'll join me there MikeMcK (where I do in fact refer to you as a brother).

Erik December 3rd, 2007

Charles and anyone else that wants to come is welcome too. Just need to keep this comment thread about homosexuals and the Church. I hope you understand. Thanks.

Mark December 3rd, 2007

Erik, the Jerk Stalker. Love it! Just changed your email address in my Contacts to read "Jerk Stalker".

Blessings Brother!

Charles December 3rd, 2007

You mean the "MikeMcK Personal Interaction Thread"?

Mike and me aren't very close, but my condolences go to him on that one.

Sorry about going off topic.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

Thanks, Charles, but don't worry about it.

I'm giving that thread all of the attention it deserves (ie. [i]none[/i]) and it looks like they've all had their fun and are breaking up now.

Charles December 6th, 2007

That aside, I think it would be good to discuss this more and maybe we can email each other or start another thread. I am a former SEBTS MDiv student myself and am a recovering legalist. It would be good to hash this stuff out, or as many SEBTS ditto heads would say, "Iron sharpening iron."

Erik December 6th, 2007

That's why I started the thread in the Forums in Purgatory. I know you don't believe me MikeMcK, but I'm not being malicious in any way. The Forums are better suited for personal discussion.

Please stay on topic guys. Since I've used these comments as a personal message board, I've seen the error of my ways. It's really a distraction from discussion regarding the posts.

Now if the post is about personal interaction, that's another thing…but this one is about homosexuals and the Church.

Zeke December 6th, 2007

I'm giving that thread all of the attention it deserves (ie. [i]none[/i]) and it looks like they've all had their fun and are breaking up now.

That's an unfortunate way to characterize the interaction. Could it be possible that since the thread turned to reconciliation and understanding that it's no longer interesting to you? Try it on, is all I'm saying.

Sorry Erik, no more from me on this thread.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

It wasn't interesting to me in the first place. I went there once because my name was on it and I wanted to see how I was being dragged through the mud this time, and I answered one question.

I told Erik I forgave him, and I did. But what he and his cheerleaders need to remember is that, all the time he was playing the "I guess you're not going to forgive me" game, he continued to keep right on doing the very thing that he was claiming to ask forgiveness for.

I made a show of good faith and forgave him. However, that I said I forgave him doesn't mean that I have to give him any more ammo to attack me.

Forgiveness is free. Trust has to be earned.

Charles December 6th, 2007

How about them homosexuals in the church?

If living in willful disobedience means no salvation, then I guess we are all damned. All of us prideful, self-righteous religious folks who justify their sin have an eternity to argue the exegesis of Romans 1 with Rosie and Ellen in hell.

How's that for getting back on topic?

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

[quote]If living in willful disobedience means no salvation, then I guess we are all damned.[/quote]

Or I guess you could repent of your sins, put your faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross.

Christov December 6th, 2007

What does it mean to repent? Does it mean I've got to be sorry for my sins? I like some of them better than some of my relatives. Is there a godly sorrow that leads to repentance, or is every repentance born of a sorrow? Is it enough to agree with God that my sin is what God says it is, or do I have feel something about it, as well? What if I sin and in my sin find my identity in Christ, as opposed to trying to make my sin all of myself? And if I die tonight unrepentant of today's sin having rebounded from yesterday's temporary victory over the flesh, the devil, and the world, do I tomorrow and eternally perish tormented night and day with the undying worm in the fiery lake? Do you not still wrestle with God? If he lames me, yet will I struggle, though he slay me, yet will I trust him. Honestly, I've got to reiterate Luther's statement that all I bring to this interaction with the Living God is sin and resistance. It's my best stuff, and it's not very good.

If these homosexual people who claim Christ are truly Christian, is there some reason we can't trust God's son to redeem them and keep them redeemed, and his Spirit to bring conviction according to his will and his word? Like the triune God needs us to help him out here? I'm responsible to speak the truth in love from my encounters with God/Christ/Spirit in scripture with which I've been entrusted by God, but I'm not responsible for whether or how that's received. No need to get exercised about it, full stop.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

[quote]What does it mean to repent?[/quote]

It means that you have to turn from your sin.

The word we get the word "repent" from is a colloquialism that actually carries with it the idea of stopping and changing direction.

[quote]And if I die tonight unrepentant of today's sin having rebounded from yesterday's temporary victory over the flesh, the devil, and the world, do I tomorrow and eternally perish tormented night and day with the undying worm in the fiery lake?[/quote]

The Bible says that those who die in their sins will go to Hell. I know you don't believe that, but that's what the Bible says.

[quote]If these homosexual people who claim Christ are truly Christian, is there some reason we can't trust God's son to redeem them and keep them redeemed, and his Spirit to bring conviction according to his will and his word?[/quote]

If they're Christians, then why are they still living in sin? Yes, I know that you're going to say that we all live in sin, but we don't.

[quote]Like the triune God needs us to help him out here? I'm responsible to speak the truth in love from my encounters with God/Christ/Spirit in scripture with which I've been entrusted by God, but I'm not responsible for whether or how that's received.[/quote]

And part of that truth is repentance.

Christov December 6th, 2007

It sounds like you're saying that once saved never sinning. I don't find that in scripture. I know of some Wesleyans who claim not to ever sin, but do admit to mistakes. However, their mistakes appear to fall within some of the biblical definitions of sin.

Does repentance save?

I do believe that those who die without having had saving contact with the Living God in Christ are eternally condemned. I do not believe that is the same thing as dying without having repented of all sin or not having completely quit sinning. Which is pretty standard Calvinist Reformation theology.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

[quote]It sounds like you're saying that once saved never sinning. I don't find that in scripture.[/quote]

I've already explained this to you people a couple of times now.

[quote]Does repentance save?[/quote]

It's a requirement of salvation.

[quote]I do believe that those who die without having had saving contact with the Living God in Christ are eternally condemned. I do not believe that is the same thing as dying without having repented of all sin or not having completely quit sinning. Which is pretty standard Calvinist Reformation theology.[/quote]

Like I said, I knew you wouldn't like it, but it is still what the Bible says.

Christov December 7th, 2007

Where does the scripture state once saved never sinning?

Where does the scripture state that repentance is a requirement for salvation?

Again, where does it state that those who die without having repented of all sin or not having completely quit sinning are consigned therefore to hell?

It's all very well for you to positively aver that these things are so, but unless you can clearly show from the scriptures, consistently the veracity of your doctrinal statements, then I will remain unconvinced. You're a pretty smart guy, but you lack the apostolic mantle of, say, Paul or John, necessary to give weight to your dicta.

I am disappointed to find that you're using even mild pejoratives like "you people" in what appears to be a discussion of the salvific effect of faith in Christ upon those who define themselves or are defined by others as homosexual.

Please define: "you people."

Which brings up an interesting point.

In all this discussion of sin, repentance, salvation, repentance, sin, death, sin, and so forth, I don't think there's been any mention of faith.

Mike, what is faith, and where does it come from?

Finally, it irks the snot out of me that I don't know enough simple html to set remarks aside in quotes, or to make bold or italicized typeface appear herein. You know, like forum software provides simple buttons for automating same.

MikeMcK December 7th, 2007

[quote]Where does the scripture state once saved never sinning?[/quote]

You know, I've explained so many times now that I didn't say that, that I'm not even going to dignify that question with an answer.

[quote]Where does the scripture state that repentance is a requirement for salvation?[/quote]

the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2).

Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ. The Scriptures speak of "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21).

The first public word Jesus preached was "repent" (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3). If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent.

However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a "worker of iniquity." Look at the warning of Scripture: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6).

The Scriptures also say, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who "repents" (Luke 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.

When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost, he commanded his hearers to repent "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Without repentance, there is no remission of sins; we are still under His wrath. Peter further said, "Repent …and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). We cannot be "converted" unless we repent. God Himself "commands all men everywhere [leaving no exceptions] to repent" (Acts 17:30). Peter said a similar thing at Pentecost: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2:38).

If repentance wasn't necessary for salvation, why then did Jesus command that repentance be preached to all nations (Luke 24:47)? With so many Scriptures speaking of the necessity of repentance for salvation, one can only suspect that those who preach salvation without repentance are strangers to repentance themselves, and thus strangers to true conversion.

But then, that's just the Bible.

[quote]Again, where does it state that those who die without having repented of all sin or not having completely quit sinning are consigned therefore to hell?[/quote]

See 2 Peter 3:6

[quote]You're a pretty smart guy, but you lack the apostolic mantle of, say, Paul or John, necessary to give weight to your dicta.[/quote]

Like I said, I knew you wouldn't agree, but it's still what the Bible teaches.

[quote]I am disappointed to find that you're using even mild pejoratives like "you people" in what appears to be a discussion of the salvific effect of faith in Christ upon those who define themselves or are defined by others as homosexual.[/quote]

I'm sure you'll get over it. I'm disappointed that not one of you tried to defend me when I was being attacked. In fact, several of you actually joined in the attack.

[quote]Please define: "you people."[/quote]

You = you
People = people

[quote]Mike, what is faith, and where does it come from?[/quote]

Hebrews 11:1 + Romans 10:17

Charles December 7th, 2007

My point is that justification for pride and self-righteousness is the same thing as justifying greasing up with the Village People.

I am not homosexual, but am ate up with pride, envy, self-righteousness and several other things on the buffet table.

Deep down, I realize I am wrong for these things and I talk with Him about them every morning…sometimes out of sorry, but most times out of sorrow…but on another level, I do not want to let go of them and if pressed by someone else, I will get defensive and start justifying my actions.

I am telling you the truth about myself and if you can't relate, then your a daisy. But I also believe any fallen human being, saved or otherwise, who enters into dialogue or relationship with other fallen human beings, saved or otherwise, rises sin in the heart to the surface and many times, no repentance of those sins takes place. Instead, our prayers are "God, could you beat them up for me?" We are all separate kingdoms and when we encounter one another, many times kingdoms clash….and sometimes both kingdoms claim to be The Kingdom.

If it is true that there are unrepentant sins among believers and if those sins go without repentance because they are more socially practical/non-controversial for religious folks to swim in without turning and heading another direction, then I think heaven will be an empty place and hell full of people pretending they made it.

Again, I can't speak for you Mike. You may be free of all my sins. I just doubt it and really have little to lose in saying that

MikeMcK December 7th, 2007

[quote]Again, I can't speak for you Mike. You may be free of all my sins. I just doubt it and really have little to lose in saying that [/quote]

And yet, out of the three of you who claim that I'm living in unrepentant sin, not one of you has been able to give an example.

Christov December 7th, 2007

I defended you by interacting with you as one rational human being to another. You've pretty much responded in kind, that is, as one rational human being to another. I also asked asked which one of you was Dennis Weaver, and which one the tanker truck. It's not my fault if you don't understand cinematographic allusions, and can't extrapolate implied meaning therefrom. Certainly you are correct in stating that I'll get over the pejorative thing, it may be your manner of seasoning your speech, as it were, with salt.

Now I'm the one who's been a little bit snotty. I really am sorry your interactions here have been unpleasant.

You've provided a number of references that I'll up presently and think about in light of their content and context. They may convince me on the repentance thing as a necessary component of salvation. You've only provided two references on faith, but I'll be interested in rereading them as you have juxtaposed them.

Mr. Rogers December 7th, 2007

This conversation reminds me of a theological fallout I had with one of my puppets.

Leave it to Mr. Rogers to say that if you're not Presbyterian, then you're a loser.

Christov December 7th, 2007

O.K. Rogers, what about Hugh Beaumont, Beaver's dad, who was really a Methodist minister. Was he a loser? He had some great cardigans.

Charles December 7th, 2007

I would love to get a video of Fred Rogers calling someone a loser…maybe Handyman Negory?

Mike, I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason I won't give you an example is two fold 1) I don't know your heart and 2) focusing on actions has little to do with actual sin….out of the heart, the mouth speaks. Even if the mouth doesn't speak, the heart is what it is.

I just know my heart. There are victories over things that controlled me in the past, but there is plenty of unrepentant sin in my heart and the more socially acceptable the sin, the less apt I am to repent and turn from it. If it is tied to church, seminary or ministry, then I consider it sanctified and would never consider repenting of it. Deep down, I know better and it will burn up in The Day.

The Bible clearly states that all have sinned…that Paul not just struggled with it, but did it. In Acts 2, Peter was a jerk. Paul was a butthead to John Mark. The Corinthian letters reveal a mess nobody could clean up, save God. I love the Bible and if I read it honestly, I don't get that believers simply struggle with sin….they also live in it. If they didn't, there would be no need for confrontation.

Repentance: I disagree that it was only talking about actions or volitions that you turn from. It means a turning of your core self towards Christ in faith, and away from other things. In John 6, Jesus says the will of the Father is to believe in the One He sent. Trust and believe in Him. THat requires a change in direction, but unless you are Christ, it also requires cleaning out many filthy closets you purposefully kept closed. All of it to make you just like Him. A servant is never greater than his Master.

In other words, if I say I am going to trust Christ and desire to become just like Him, I better get my crash helmet on and make sure everyone who comes in contact with me is issued one as well, because the shaking will begin.

Homosexuality is no different. I believe it is clearly sin, as I read Scripture. But when I consider my sins, I can't stand on my soapbox and clearly preach condemnation against them, when I have dirty closets of my own.

The difference between believers and unbelievers is Him, pure and simple. You try to add to that, and you start a puzzle you can't solve.

Charles December 7th, 2007

I write too much…

Bottom line….nothing wrong with debating Scriptural teachings about homosexuality, or sexuality period. Nothing wrong about disagreeing about homosexual lifestyle. But the minute the debate turns into labelling saved or unsaved because of disagreement, forget about getting anywhere on either side. That's a sanctified and religiously acceptable way to cut other people down.

Anyway, need to ease off. I think I should start my own blog so I can leave other people's alone

MikeMcK December 7th, 2007

[quote]Mike, I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason I won't give you an example is two fold 1) I don't know your heart and 2) focusing on actions has little to do with actual sin….out of the heart, the mouth speaks. Even if the mouth doesn't speak, the heart is what it is.[/quote]

I see. So, when it comes to making the slanderous claim that I'm living in unrepentant sin, you know my heart just fine, but when it comes to backing up your false accusations, you don't know my heart?

Which is it?

Erik December 7th, 2007

Personal conversation with MikeMcK goes here. You can of course talk to him anywhere else you'd like as well. However, any future comments on this post that don't have to do with homosexuals and the Church will be deleted.

Charles December 7th, 2007

Is there anyone else who would like to take a stab at my thoughts? I really would like to get someone's opinion without it being taken personally. I might get drunk and admit some secret sins of my own, if it will help the conversation

Am i way off base?

Willis December 7th, 2007

Quote Charles:

"Is there anyone else who would like to take a stab at my thoughts?"

I think your recognition of your own sin problem is evidence of your repentance. If you were to say that you do not sin or said that your sin didn't matter or denied the existence of sin, then that would be pretty strong evidence that you aren't repentant. Now of course, being repentant is only part of the process. That must be combined with a recognition that Jesus died for those sins and took care of them forever by rising from the dead and ascending to heaven.

However, under the New Covenant as it was revealed to Paul by Jesus the emphasis (particularly among non-Jews) was not repentance but rather FAITH.

Colossians 1:21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

So I don't think we have to have a total laundry-list style repentance (oops. forgot one! To hell you go!). It has to be a repentance of the heart that seeks out the reconciliation offered by the gospel. Paul says we are holy NOW, without blemish NOW, and free from accusation NOW if we continue to have faith. I think the conviction of particular sins–homosexual or otherwise–grows out of a Holy Spirit-led heart. It is a work of the Spirit, not of the flesh.

Galatians 3:2-3 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Charles December 8th, 2007

Thanks Willis.

I have several thoughts about 1 John 3:6 and it does related to homosexuality but since it relates to any sins, I will place a new thread in the forums.

Patrick Burwell December 12th, 2007

"However, under the New Covenant as it was revealed to Paul by Jesus the emphasis (particularly among non-Jews) was not repentance but rather FAITH."

Well no actually. Jesus said it himself that unless you repent you perish. The grace we receive is that of the Mercy afforded through the blood of Jesus.

Repentance is forsaking your sin and entrusting yourself to Jesus to be the payment for your sin. It is a common problem with those who argue with this point that they have a low view of Scripture. As Mike pointed out earlier, Christians believe what Scripture tells them. Period. This is our premise and to argue with that premise leaves no room for discussion.
Evangelicals hold to the facts of scripture that we are all lost in our violations of God's Law and, unless we repent and trust ourselves to the payment Jesus made for us AND TO HIS SOVEREIGNTY OVER US, then, when He comes to establish His Kingdom, God will reject us as being His for ARE not if we are in our sins still.
Actively engaging in sin is, by the very act of doing so, indicative of one who is not born again, a new creation. the "old things" have not passed away. Sin is still your LORD and you under the sway of your lusts.
One who engages in actively violating God's Laws is a Sinner and lost.
There is, as the Apostle Paul explained very well, sin that does not lead to death, but that is not what we are talking about. A Christian may fall into sin, a non-willful act. But a "lifestyle" of sin is, by it's very definition, the fruit of a corrupt tree.

Hope that helps clarify my position.

Charles December 12th, 2007

So, if you do bad stuff, repent of the bad stuff and stop doing it or else you are not really a Christian.

I know that is probably oversimplification, but is that about it?

MikeMcK December 12th, 2007

[quote]So, if you do bad stuff, repent of the bad stuff and stop doing it or else you are not really a Christian.[/quote]

That's essentially what the Bible says.

Brian December 18th, 2007

Simply just b/c there are more people living in a homosexual relationship, whether it be same sex male or female, does not make it a more acceptable lifestyle. The Extreme indulgence of Sexual Excess in ALL ways is at the very core….evil….if purely for selfish satisfaction. Scripture is full of examples of this all over the place, David, Samson, Abraham, etc….Just look at the end of the Roman Empire, all types of lust were rampant just before Rome fell, just as it is in ours……and perhaps Karl Marx was correct in saying that a "free" society always eventually implodes within itself! Romans makes it clear, Sodom and Gomorrah makes it clear, that the heneousness of all types of sexual sin are an obomination to God, regardless of what anyone on this website says (unless, that is, you agree with God about it). Stop twisting scripture and living in denial….and start struggling like everyone else does with sin…..God made Adam and Eve…..NOT Adam and Steve. Those who practice this as a lifestyle and deny that it is sin, clearly will not inherit the Kingdom of God unless God gives them Grace and strength to overcome or resist in their struggle vs it!! Hey….the Bible isn't for everyone!!

Zeke December 18th, 2007

Hey….the Bible isn't for everyone!!

Sometimes I think that the ones that need it the most…

Erik December 18th, 2007

It's like the ones who think they need it the least, confiscate it and twist its words in a way the obscures its message from those who…like you said Zeke…need it the most.

Charles December 18th, 2007

I actually believe homosexuality, like all other sins, to be sins, not good if in proper perspective…always not good. But we are all infected with sin we realize and repent, sin we realize and struggle and other sins we are fat and ignorant about till the Lord decides to reveal it to us.

These guys who pontificate how awful homosexuality is are picking and choosing which sin to really hammer on while being in absolute denial about others that probably need much more attention. And I believe it is those sins that may be a huge stumbling block in the paths of those who need it the most and would respond otherwise.

It's pride and self-righteousness we downplay or are in denial about. We are all guilty of it. It is just that a large portion of the conservative evangelical Christians don't believe we suffer from it at all and, ironically, we hear more condemnation from our camp than anyone else….and convince ourselves we are saving God from becoming obsolete, as if He needed us.

Let's get serious about our own hearts so we can actually be useful to people who are lost and hurting. Instead of trying to fix homosexuals, lets get serious about our own hearts and let Jesus lead us rather than our insecurities and dark secrets. Jesus reserved all of His condemnation for the self-righteous and the self-interested….and I think they are two sides of the same coin.

If we do that, we may actually be heard more, taken serious more and become more of an influence than we are banging our trash can lids with a broken stick through the market place, message boards, blogs and news programs.

Zeke December 18th, 2007

If we do that, we may actually be heard more, taken serious more and become more of an influence than we are banging our trash can lids with a broken stick through the market place, message boards, blogs and news programs.

Well said, Chris. Instead of waging war against the culture "for Christ" we should first wage war against our own selfish and fearful little natures.

Brian December 18th, 2007

Charles wrote…."If we do that, we may actually be heard more, taken serious more and become more of an influence than we are banging our trash can lids with a broken stick through the market place, message boards, blogs and news programs."

You mean like this one?? Hey, if the biblical lifestyle doesn't fit you….why not just create your own bible so that you can make it fit and blend in with the world and reduce God's Words to be more acceptable to those who find the REAL message of Scripture unpaletable. That is exactly what you are all saying.

Zeke, If the BIble WERE for everyone…then EVERYONE would be saved!! Scripture is full of passages which Jesus refers to people who are "not my sheep". So….are you saying the Bible was written so that all believe??? Only those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World, have the ability to obey, trust, and live the way God intended. God's choice dictates particular redemption for man…not man's choice to follow God. So…in effect, my point stands…unless you actually think you can "reason" a person into the Kingdom….simply by "softening" your persepective on gays would be considered the "same" as softening on "any" sin…..so it works both ways, so please…don't lighten up on us here. : ))

Zeke December 19th, 2007

Hey, if the biblical lifestyle doesn't fit you….why not just create your own bible so that you can make it fit and blend in with the world and reduce God's Words to be more acceptable to those who find the REAL message of Scripture unpaletable. That is exactly what you are all saying.

"If the biblical lifestyle doesn't fit" me? Trust me, if you can post stuff like this in good conscience, then maybe you're making your own bible too. If anyone is comfortable reading the bible then they're skipping over the parts that are most important for them to read.

Brian December 19th, 2007

The problem in America today, is that God's message has already been watered down into "easy believism". We've created a whole new synthetic seed of "believers" based upon a society which cannot stomach the True, Biblical Jesus…..so one has been substituted. Joel Ostein is a prime example. Scripture actually is a blend of Grace and Truth…..yet too many just want Grace ie…the benefits of a right relationship with God, without having any responsibility or accountability to God….very very few want truth. We all want to be told that, "we're all not too bad off….and how "everyone sins, and so we should just accept ourselves" or so Joel Ostein says. Don't dwell on the negative etc…..well, Would a God who created Hell, and grieves when we sin, be subscribing to the "upside only" content of Joel's message?? The fact that millions tune in should tell you something…..the number one answer given by those asked why they like him so much….is "He inspires me feel good about myself". Maybe we could interprete this to mean, feel good about my "sin"? Hey, at least Billy Graham called people to repentance, and to a Holy life….just as scripture calls. Don't throw pearls before swine ….We need preachers with Balls…..and it seems most of them today neglect to use a truly and Divinely set of them given by a "truly masculine" God and exchanged them for Joel Ostein and Dr. Phil. Johnathan Edwards….where the H— are you??? (no pun intended).

Brian December 19th, 2007

Zeke, simply by the fact that I what I said rattles your cage, is evident enough that you are soft on scripture. I stated, that the Bible isn't for everybody……and you begged to differ. Well, I've explained plainly that the Scriptures themselves tell this to us….and you are freely welcome to explain why you disagree. Show me what I've stated which makes you think I've created my own Bible??

Mark December 19th, 2007

Pretty gutsy to call someone you have never met, except for the exchange of a few comments on a web-based message board, "soft on scripture."

Mike from Michigan December 19th, 2007

It's also fine to talk about who the Elect are, as long as we remember who gets to make that call. It makes me uncomfortable when I hear talk of who's in and who's not, since that point of view, usually, is only looking at what we see right here and right now, and not at the possibility of who God could call in the future. God does what he wants, and calls who he wants. My job isn't to figure out his selection process, but to say, "Yes, sir," and do what he asks.

Charles December 19th, 2007

"You mean like this one?? Hey, if the biblical lifestyle doesn't fit you….why not just create your own bible so that you can make it fit and blend in with the world and reduce God's Words to be more acceptable to those who find the REAL message of Scripture unpaletable. That is exactly what you are all saying."

Just the opposite. We who condemn without even the slightest pause about what we are really doing are watering down Scripture to suit ourselves. It is much easier to criticize others than it is to deal with our own mess. Food critics and movie critics are paid to do what comes naturally. It's the chef or the writer that puts himself out there to be bludgeoned. Same thing regarding sin. It's much easier to criticize other people's lives than it is to take a critical look at our own. For me, the former sort of helps me avoid the latter. In either case, I am no better. I am convinced we do that, not because we are for God, but because we decided to take His place and manage/control everybody and all outcomes, because we think we have a better way of handling these things than He does.

In either case, He is near and paid for all the mess once and for all. We can get most of the other stuff wrong. In fact, when we get there, we will probably find out most of us were wrong about far more than we thought. But if we have Him right, that is really what matters. We can be right about everything, except Him and miss it entirely.

Zeke December 19th, 2007

Show me what I've stated which makes you think I've created my own Bible??

That your response to a God who sent prophet after prophet, followed by his own son, to chase after the ones that he love… is "Hey, the bible isn't for everyone." I think the father that watches the horizon for his wayward son to return, that the husband who gives gifts to his beloved wife so that she could be reminded of his love for her, and thus turn from her cheating ways, might offer something other than "Hey, the bible isn't for everyone." What I'm suggesting is that maybe this God of the bible doesn't compute for you. Maybe you like the bible where some get to go to heaven, and as for the rest: Hey, the bible isn't for everyone.

Charles December 19th, 2007

Christ invited the weary and burdened to take His easy yoke and find rest for our souls.

In alot of Church circles, not only can we not find rest for our souls, but it's hard to find someone willing enough to admit to being weary and burdened. And the atmosphere is alot like on this blog….contemptuous and uptight.

I know Jesus never condoned tax collectors. They were basically extortioners…thieves beyond the law. But He never made it His mission to eliminate them from Israel either. In fact, He invited one to follow Him and another to come eat at his house. He didn't even wait to see if they repented of their ways first. He just invited them as they were.

He told the woman caught in the act of adultery that her sins were forgiven so go and sin no more, rather than go and sin no more and your sins will be forgiven.

He didn't ask the prostitute in Luke to repent before coming to Him to wipe his feet with her tears. In fact, those who thought it controversial ended up being on the learning end of the lesson, rather than her. When the Pharisee thought to himself that Jesus had no idea what kind of woman she was, Jesus told Him that those who are forgiven much love much and those forgiven little love little. It is easy to see how those who are making sure everything they do glorifies God are precisely those who have no use for anyone else.

I need this Man in Scripture. I desparately need this Savior…not the one who can't stand homosexuals or alcoholics or crooks. If I wanted a sermon on sin and morality, I could go to Islam or Buddhism. Only with Jesus do I find unconditional love and forgiveness for those who want it, without first making sure their doctrine is all nice and orderly.

I get an entirely different picture of my Savior in Scripture than when I see alot of His followers acting in His Name. Some of the meanest people I have ever run into hold true to The 2000 Baptist Statement of Faith or the Westminster Confession or both.

Why?

I'm tired of it. I used to get angry, but now I am just plain tired. Anyway, just a confession.

mikemck December 19th, 2007

And where in scripture do we see Jesus forgiving unconditionally just because somebody wants it?

Zeke December 19th, 2007

And where in scripture do we see Jesus forgiving unconditionally just because somebody wants it?

Straw man, Mike. Nobody made that point that I could see. Although in fact that was all that was required of the woman at the well, if memory serves. And of the woman who tugged at the hem of Jesus' garment. And the men who lowered their crippled friend down through the roof. And the centurion who just wanted Jesus to say the word and his child would be healed. And of the prodigal son–who in fact asked for nothing more than just a job and a meal and got an inheritance instead.

Charles December 19th, 2007

Actually Zeke I did make that point and think it is Scriptural.

Every example I gave had no strings attached. Every invitation was given without any prerequisites other than accepting the invitation. It was the welcoming invitation, acceptance and forgiveness that was the power that changed their lives forever.

You bring up the woman at the well. She was Samaritan, divorced many times over and shacked up with another man, yet Jesus sat down next to her and talked to her. If Jesus was anything at all like He is many times presented, that Samaritan woman would have never met Jesus because Jesus would have nothing to do with someone like that.

In fact, truth be known, Jesus wouldn't have anything to do with any of us, if that is really who He is.

We'd have to trash those hymns like "Just As I Am."

What I see in Scripture is The Godman loving the unlovely, forgiving the unforgivable and changing lives with His love that asks for nothing but to come to Him.

The other Jesus is an angry little wooden idol with a bullwhip.

But we all have our idols. Good thing we have grace.

Mike and Brian, if you want to really do something about homosexuality, I have a suggestion and it is Scriptural. Love them the way Jesus loves you and that woman at the well. Don't let sin…even unrepentant sin…keep you from loving them, because Romans 5 states Christ died for us while we were sinners. You don't have to love and accept homosexuality in order to love and accept them the way Jesus would and does. I hope you realize that. I think you'll find that works alot better than hitting them over the head with a big hammer.

mikemck December 19th, 2007

[quote]Mike and Brian, if you want to really do something about homosexuality, I have a suggestion and it is Scriptural. Love them the way Jesus loves you and that woman at the well. Don't let sin…even unrepentant sin…keep you from loving them, because Romans 5 states Christ died for us while we were sinners. You don't have to love and accept homosexuality in order to love and accept them the way Jesus would and does. I hope you realize that. I think you'll find that works alot better than hitting them over the head with a big hammer.[/quote]

And who did I ever hit over the head with a hammer?

Or are you always in the habit of such false accusations?

How can you say that you love them when you won't share the Gospel with them?

Zeke December 19th, 2007

How can you say that you love them when you won't share the Gospel with them?

Well, my point would be that repent isn't the true message of the Gospel. The true Gospel is Jesus did it. It seems you're suggesting that the Gospel really is if you do x, then Jesus will do y, or Jesus did x, so now you do y.

Exhorting people to live more like Christ isn't the Gospel. Or am I just confused about what you're saying?

mikemck December 19th, 2007

[quote]Well, my point would be that repent isn't the true message of the Gospel.[/quote]

Then it's your word against God's because the following verses show that repentance is, indeed, part of the "true message" of the Gospel.

Mr 1:4
Lu 3:3
Lu 5:32
Lu 24:47
Ac 13:24
Ac 20:21
Ro 2:4
2Co 7:10
2Ti 2:25

[quote]The true Gospel is Jesus did it.[/quote]

Did what? Why?

[quote]It seems you're suggesting that the Gospel really is if you do x, then Jesus will do y, or Jesus did x, so now you do y.[/quote]

More like, "Jesus did X so that if you do Y, you will be saved."

Zeke December 19th, 2007

More like, "Jesus did X so that if you do Y, you will be saved."

And I would say Mike that if you think that how well you do Y determines whether or not you are saved, then we have a fundamental disagreement.

dorsey December 19th, 2007

Systematic Theology is the Antichrist.

Zeke December 19th, 2007

Don't mince words, Dorse. What do you really think?

dorsey December 19th, 2007

I think that I don't condemn a man according to my interpretation of scriptural morality. I condemn a man according to the efficacy of his HTML tags.

; )

mikemck December 19th, 2007

[quote]And I would say Mike that if you think that how well you do Y determines whether or not you are saved, then we have a fundamental disagreement.[/quote]

I can only go by what the Bible says.

Zeke December 19th, 2007

I can only go by what the Bible says.

Right. And how's your Y going?

mikemck December 20th, 2007

[quote]Right. And how's your Y going?[quote]

It went very well, thank you.

Zeke December 20th, 2007

It went very well, thank you.

Well there's grace for you in case your Y falls short, so you're cool.

Jordo December 20th, 2007

WHAT IS WHY! I'LL DO IT IF YOU"LL ALL STOP TALKING IN LETTER!

Jordo December 20th, 2007

Y*

Zeke December 20th, 2007

"Y" = what we add to Jesus' work via our own efforts at repentance.

Charles December 20th, 2007

"And who did I ever hit over the head with a hammer?

Or are you always in the habit of such false accusations?

How can you say that you love them when you won't share the Gospel with them?"

Ok, then my false accusation. Sorry.

What is your definition of the Gospel Mike?

mikemck December 20th, 2007

[quote]"Y" = what we add to Jesus' work via our own efforts at repentance.[/quote]

No, "Y" is what the Bible requires us to do to be saved.

Jesus cannot repent for us.
Jesus cannot confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts that He is Lord for us.
Jesus cannot place His faith in Himself for us.
Jesus cannot be baptised for us.

mikemck December 20th, 2007

[quote]What is your definition of the Gospel Mike?[/quote]

Gee, I'm shocked that somebody who listens to Steve Brown wouldn't know what the Gospel is. Who would have ever thought that? (sarcasm)

The Gospel is that man has broken God's laws and sinned. As such, he has made himself an enemy of God, deserving of God's wrath.

However, while God is Holy and Righteous and Just, the waters of His wrath are held at bay by the damn of His mercy.

That is why He gave His only begotton son as a sacrifice on our behalf so that we could be forgiven, reconciled, and made sons of God.

He now calls on us to repent and place our faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross with the promise that, if we do, we will be saved.

Zeke December 20th, 2007

Jesus cannot repent for us.

Fair enough, but my point is: how can you ever be assured of the quality and constancy of your own repentance? Don't you inevitably end up judging for yourself what is and is not sin, and what does and does not constitute repentance?

mikemck December 20th, 2007

[quote]how can you ever be assured of the quality and constancy of your own repentance?[/quote]

Because you can examine yourself and your attitude and relationship with that sin you say you've repented of.

[quote]Don't you inevitably end up judging for yourself what is and is not sin, and what does and does not constitute repentance?[/quote]

I can't speak for anybody but myself, but, no. If the Bible says it's a sin, then it's a sin. If my attitude and relationship toward sin is consistent with the Bible's teaching about repentance, then I've repented.

It ain't rocket science.

Charles December 20th, 2007

…sort of like whistling through the graveyard.

jefe December 20th, 2007

[works-based-doctrine]More like, "Jesus did X so that if you do Y, you will be saved."[/works-based-doctrine]

Wow!

[judge]I can't speak for anybody but myself, but, no. If the Bible says it's a sin, then it's a sin. If my attitude and relationship toward sin is consistent with the Bible's teaching about repentance, then I've repented.[/judge]

The problem with this line of thought is (beware: broad generalization coming– sorry in advance), that even though you say you cannot speak for anyone else, it normally doesn't end with self-realization. Evangelicals feel they have the mandate to project judgmental, sin-accusations on everyone and anyone within earshot…

God forbid if an evangelical would pray and silently trust the Holy Spirit to deal with someone's actions…

(sorry for jumping in. very entertaining discussion — really shows me how far I've come)

Charles December 21st, 2007

I agree with you Jefe.

If sins were simply incidental, like zits or cockroaches, Mike would have a great point. Just squeeze or zap when you see one and everything is decontaminated till another one pops up. It's not rocket science.

Problem with me is that sin is something pervasive, rather than incidental…..it's in my heart. The problem with heart issues is that alot of the time, they seem dormant or unnoticed alot of the time but still it is there and when it comes out (and it always does), many times I think it is righteousness and because of my heart I am incapable of seeing that I am being a jerk….that I use Him for my own purposes, rather than vice versa.

I remember a spat I had with fellow seminarians years ago over faith versus reason…and by the time it was over, all three of us would have loved for the others to get cancer and die….but since it was about biblical stuff, we somehow thought we were immune from being a-holes to each other. At least I couldn't see it. Time passed and I was able to go back and re-read the email exchanges with one another. I was ashamed of myself. But at the time, I thought I was fighting for God.

Before I die, I am sure there will be more that I am not aware of right now and I am actually alright with that…at least more than I was.

If someone defines repentance as an incident or habits, then we're going to all be Catholics again in about 50 years. But if repentance is something else…God's way of turning us from that pervasive nature that runs throughout our bodies, then it is a whole different matter. The bad news is that we are far worse than we thought. The Good News is that He far more powerful than our condition and His mission is to complete us into something wonderful.

And if that isn't true….if that isn't what the Bible says, then I think we are all pretty much toast.

mikemck December 21st, 2007

[quote][/works-based-doctrine][/quote]

Actually, it isn't works-based doctrine at all.

If anybody here knew the Bible you would know that the Bible says that we do have to repent to be saved, we have to believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord to be saved, that we do have to place our faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross to be saved.

You might not agree with that and you might not like it, but that's what the Bible says.

Works based righteousness would be performing religious works to make ourselves righteous.

[quotew]The problem with this line of thought is (beware: broad generalization coming– sorry in advance), that even though you say you cannot speak for anyone else, it normally doesn't end with self-realization.[/quote]

The question was to me and I answered for myself.

[quote]Evangelicals feel they have the mandate to project judgmental, sin-accusations on everyone and anyone within earshot[/quote]

I know. Many of the liberals here have done that to me. A representative of Key Life even told me that I'm living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin and am not saved.

[quote]God forbid if an evangelical would pray and silently trust the Holy Spirit to deal with someone's actions…[/quote]

God forbid a liberal emergent shouldn't attempt to demonize everyone who he disagrees with.

mikemck December 21st, 2007

[quote]I agree with you Jefe.

If sins were simply incidental, like zits or cockroaches, Mike would have a great point. Just squeeze or zap when you see one and everything is decontaminated till another one pops up. It's not rocket science.

Problem with me is that sin is something pervasive, rather than incidental…..it's in my heart. The problem with heart issues is that alot of the time, they seem dormant or unnoticed alot of the time but still it is there and when it comes out (and it always does), many times I think it is righteousness and because of my heart I am incapable of seeing that I am being a jerk….that I use Him for my own purposes, rather than vice versa.

I remember a spat I had with fellow seminarians years ago over faith versus reason…and by the time it was over, all three of us would have loved for the others to get cancer and die….but since it was about biblical stuff, we somehow thought we were immune from being a-holes to each other. At least I couldn't see it. Time passed and I was able to go back and re-read the email exchanges with one another. I was ashamed of myself. But at the time, I thought I was fighting for God.

Before I die, I am sure there will be more that I am not aware of right now and I am actually alright with that…at least more than I was.

If someone defines repentance as an incident or habits, then we're going to all be Catholics again in about 50 years. But if repentance is something else…God's way of turning us from that pervasive nature that runs throughout our bodies, then it is a whole different matter. The bad news is that we are far worse than we thought. The Good News is that He far more powerful than our condition and His mission is to complete us into something wonderful.

And if that isn't true….if that isn't what the Bible says, then I think we are all pretty much toast.[/quote]

So then, you're a seminarian and you don't know what the Bible says we must do to be saved or what it says about repentance?

jefe December 21st, 2007

"God forbid a liberal emergent shouldn't attempt to demonize everyone who he disagrees with."

I hope you're not referring to me. I am neither liberal or emergent. You may label me a proud "libertarian demergent".

Beyond that, I didn't mean to come off accusatory. I just think X'ns need to spend less time trying to 'fix' people and more time praying to and trusting God in those situations. And that includes those pesky emergent types. I find emergent-theologian-wanna-be's equally as incessant in their attempts to proselytize as the mindless, self-serving evangelicals.

Mikemck, you can complain all you want. but you're part of the problem, not the solution. What Steve brown is attempting to do is strike a sort-of 'grace-balance' in the church. I don't know if you've read his book or really listened to his podcasts. But he makes some sense… even if it's just to add some balance to divisive, extremist theologies out there (on both sides).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if more X'ns (like yourself) would just shut the hell up and listen, instead of attempting to prove that you know it all, you might just find a little grace for your judgmentalism, and find that your worldview has been expanded a bit.

Unfortunately, we Christians aren't satisfied unless we have the last word… hmmm

Mr. Rogers December 21st, 2007

What we need is a "Repent-O-Meter" so we can find out who TRULY repented (100%) vs. someone else's lackluster repentance (65%)

When they say the "sinners prayer", an alarm can go off if it doesn't meek the satisfactory level of repentance.

BEEP BEEP BEEP!

dorsey December 21st, 2007

"So then, you're a seminarian and you don't know what the Bible says we must do to be saved or what it says about repentance?"

Doesn't appear that you do, either.

Finally, some common ground.

mikemck December 21st, 2007

[quote]Doesn't appear that you do, either. [/quote]

What did I say that isn't Biblical?

Zeke December 21st, 2007

Time passed and I was able to go back and re-read the email exchanges with one another. I was ashamed of myself. But at the time, I thought I was fighting for God.

I'm humbled by that admission, Charles. And in lieu of pouring my energy into more controversy on this thread, I'm giving a little something to Advent Conspiracy (thanks for the heads up, Brother Dorse). Check them out at adventconspiracy.org.

God bless each and every one of you. Merry Christmas!

Daniel December 21st, 2007

Rogers,

Can't you get King Friday to decree one of those…?

mikemck December 21st, 2007

[quote]I just think X'ns need to spend less time trying to 'fix' people and more time praying to and trusting God in those situations.[/quote]

So do you ever think it's appropriate to follow the Bible's command to present the Gospel to the lost?

[quote]And that includes those pesky emergent types. I find emergent-theologian-wanna-be's equally as incessant in their attempts to proselytize as the mindless, self-serving evangelicals.[/quote]

Better to be "mindless and self serving" in your eyes than to be disobedient in God's eyes.

[quote]Mikemck, you can complain all you want. but you're part of the problem, not the solution. What Steve brown is attempting to do is strike a sort-of 'grace-balance' in the church.[/quote]

What Steve Brown preaches isn't grace. It's a mockery of grace.

Steve Brown preaches liscentiousness.

[quote]I don't know if you've read his book or really listened to his podcasts.[/quote]

Yep. Started listening to him around '92 or '93.

[quote]But he makes some sense[/quote]

Sure. My flesh thinks he a genius. He has a great way of telling it exactly what it wants to hear.

[quote]I guess what I'm trying to say is, if more X'ns (like yourself) would just shut the hell up and listen, instead of attempting to prove that you know it all, you might just find a little grace for your judgmentalism, and find that your worldview has been expanded a bit[/quote]

I see. So then, according to you, not only should we not present the Gospel, we shouldn't stand up for sound doctrine, either?

Charles December 21st, 2007

Thanks Zeke. And will check it out.

Mike's unrepentant heart is wearing me out

mikemck December 21st, 2007

[quote]Mike's unrepentant heart is wearing me out [/quote]

So, you're really good at making the false accusations, aren't you?

Eric told me that I was living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin and wasn't saved.

He couldn't back it up.

TImeout said that I'm living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin and wasn't saved.

He couldn't back it up.

You're telling me that I'm living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin.

You can't tell me what sin I'm serving.

Charles December 21st, 2007

Oh, I don't doubt your salvation. I wouldn't do that.

You're just a big time jerk and are the last one to know. You're capable of making sweeping accusations but can't take even smalls ones from anyone else. That's alright. I have been known to be a jerk too (maybe fell into it again just now), so we should hang out and maybe start a support group

mikemck December 21st, 2007

In other words, you lied.

Charles December 21st, 2007

In fact, maybe we could start a support group at a local Celebrate Recovery. There's one already dealing with hostility….so maybe we fall into that category….poisonous thoughts and feelings about others. I think we meet next door to the struggling homosexual group.

Charles December 21st, 2007

Your posts speak for themselves Sparky. Beyond that, I have nothing else to say about your behavior around here.

mikemck December 21st, 2007

I've got to be honest with you, I really don't give a damn if you think I'm a jerk or not.

If you guys can treat me and abuse and attack me the way you have and not see anything wrong with that, then you're not qualified to call anybody anything.

The very first day I was here, I was attacked, called names, had all sorts of false accusations made against me, all because you disagreed with me and couldn't explain why you believed I was wrong like an adult would.

Even Steve Brown's representatives were doing it, and here you are telling me I should listen to this idiot? Why? So I can act like his followers?

No way. I wouldn't treat a dog the way you've all treated me.

I didn't say anything to you to deserve your personal attack. You chose to do that on your own, unprovoked.

You guys can try to make me out to be the bad guy all you like and you can delude yourselves into thinking that you're God's own, but the truth is, you're the ones attacking me, not the other way around.

mikemck December 21st, 2007

Oh. "Sparky". That's really bright. Did your sister give you that one while you were banging her?

Erik December 21st, 2007

Enough already guys. I'm putting shows together now, so I don't have time to delete your personal interaction on a thread about homosexuals and the Church. In the mean time, can you please just respect my request to stay on topic?

Charles December 21st, 2007

"Oh. "Sparky". That's really bright. Did your sister give you that one while you were banging her?"

Celebrate Recovery meets Monday nights at 5:30pm. You are my guest. Dinner's on me.

mikemck December 21st, 2007

Three free sins, right Eric?

mikemck December 21st, 2007

[quote]Celebrate Recovery meets Monday nights at 5:30pm. You are my guest. Dinner's on me.[/quote]

No. You go on and quit fucking your sister and go to your inbreeding anonymous recovery meeting yourself.

Nobody December 21st, 2007

This post, proof that you can say so much about nothing. Excluding perhaps the pocast itself, nothing was resolved in all of this. The gays still feel completely alienated, frustrated, and confused. The Christians are still unwilling to "sell out" their faith and allow what they see as a mortal sin to enter their midst. It is a mortal sin, perhaps. It is after all the mortal ones that are the most comfortable to remain in. It is they that feel the most natural. I know this personally. The question the Christians must ask I put in the form of an analogy: if you are warm and well-fed inside a house, and you look outside and see a man dying of cold and hunger sitting on your front step do you not bring him in and warm him and feed him and love him dispite the fact that he might dirty your carpet or make your house smell. There are people dying slow painful spiritual deaths all around us. They cannot feed themselves or warm themselves. They cannot stop sinning themselves. If a man can stop his own sin he does not need a savior. They need your Lord and Father. Its time to stop debating the issues and worrying about to what extent you will let them come in without compromising Christendom. Christendom cannot be compromised by an act of kindness. And if they are truely Jesus's they are Christians no matter what you believe. It is He that decides their involvement in His body and ultimately His kindom. Just love them even if they refuse to give up their sin. Love is never wrong, but judgement often is.
To the gay person, I do not say I understand your position except that I know what being stranded in sin is like when everybody keeps telling you that you should just stop and you can't. Jesus is the answer the crisis in your hearts. He is not going to force you to be straight. He will love you without all the obligitory prepositions that seem to trail the sentances of a lot of Christians. Those that hate you are the minority. It is just that the minority speaks the loudest. Please no that you are not alone even among the straight Christians. We are all fighting and loosing except that we have a Savior through which we can conqer anything. God bless you and everyone.

Daniel December 21st, 2007

I agree with everything you just said except the last sentance…we've already won, those who are in Christ anyway…

we're all beggars, those with Christ can only tell other beggars where they found bread…

(I think Steve Brown has said that, but its good so Ill use it too)

Too that though, we cannot force the beggar to take the bread, nor can we force those who have tasted it to go back for more…

we can only show the way, we can't walk for anyone, no matter how much we'd like to…

Nobody December 21st, 2007

If you count winning as no longer continuing in sin, I have not won. I count myself as saved, not because I am now sinless or even sin less, but because I have the promise of Jesus to fulfill my sanctification and perfect my soul.

Nobody December 21st, 2007

However he does it, I know it will be done. That is how I am saved.

Nobody December 21st, 2007

Our goal their salvation, but our task at hand is to love them and to enjoy their fellowship in spite of their sin. Satan may keep them, but we don't defeat Satan by fighting them.

Daniel December 21st, 2007

huzzah! well said!

Nobody you should use your name or another moniker, so when I refer to you in the future I won't sound the cyclops after Odysseus tricked him…

"Who stabbed your eye cyclops?"

"NOBODY….NOBODY has stabbed my eye!!!"

Jordo December 21st, 2007

Fellowship in what regard? I Corinthians 5 But Paul seems to disagree with you on this one. I agree with you on your last sentance though.

Charles December 21st, 2007

Nobody is somebody.

Awesome post.

Charles December 21st, 2007

Just my opinion about Paul's tyrade…

1 Corinthians 5 is about the church turning a blind eye to an incestuous relationship that was ripping families and the church apart. Son was sleeping with Dad's current wife and I bet Dad was distraught, along with his friends and other family members…and the turning a blind eye to it was causing further conflicts bubbling under the surface. To top ot off, they wouldn't do anything about it because the perpetrator was probably a big time personality and possibly a leader.

That is a different situation than breaking fellowship out of a disagreement about sin. They all knew it, probably had huge fallout from it, and were too scared to do anything about it.

In the end, I would look at Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 as the final line in the sand with any situation, including this one. Despite popular belief, Jesus loves sinners.

Steve December 21st, 2007

Hey boy's. I hope none of you ever have to wonder about one of the reason's I left laying on the roadside this thing called Christianity. You might say I had an experience unlike Paul but with similarities. Ok now you can continue to….. Well I'm not sure what it is your doing but go ahead.

Nobody December 21st, 2007

Conceit fades when you realize the extent of the sinner's pain, and feel genuine compassion for them not from some lofty rostrum but as one who knows their pain all too well. I believe that the gay person is not gay because they choose it, but because they honestly believe that there is no choice. They feel it is their nature. No one would seek to change their nature when those who suggest they do so are unloving and prideful. Jesus changed hearts not with conceit or pride, but with open arms and a heart that shares pain. Unfortunately the end of conceit for many Christians is a fall. They fall down among the sinners the fought so hard to rise above and they find Jesus there. Jesus who did not fall there but decended for the sake of the fallen.

Jordo December 21st, 2007

Woah, dude, can I blog that? You didn't really answer my question though. lol

Brian December 22nd, 2007

This has got to be the "wimpiest" message board….I'm actually surprised at the number of "Woe is me" whiners fixated upon their own "inabilities". They would all do well to join up with the self -help guru Joel Osteen just to gain a little confidence…but knowing Christ in the way that you should, would give you such an unshakeable confidence in God to see how you many of you promote your own "sin" as being something which prevents you from upholding a purer reason for living which is why God actually saved you in the first place. You were saved to glorify God. We don't get to pick the culture or the time in which we were born, or even saved…..We need to stop measuring ourselves on "Gospel Effectiveness" by the ways and means we use to reach a desparately wicked and evil culture. Only those who truly repent will be saved. I have worked for the last 20 years in an environment of Gays and Lesbians of whom I have conversed, who seem completely at "peace" with their lifestyle and it would amaze you how many of them are members of Mainline church denominations!!

Most of what is preached today is geared toward getting people to pray a prayer, raise a hand, walk to the front of an arena…..this culture knows almost nothing about real "biblical" repentance. It is the pop-christian Culture today that has so conveniently arranged a synthetic method of "repentance" that it is no wonder nothing real is ever really taking place. There are waaaay too many "Christians" espousing crap on this board such as "one beggar telling another beggar where he found bread"….think about this….hey, if it's all about the "bread" and you're just in it for the "benefits" of God, well then maybe you really aren't saved afterall??? When we reduce the Gospel to merely telling someone else where we've found bread, those who begin coming, are just there for the bread…we are all to eagar to pronounce, label, and enable these folks as "saved". Churches are so packed with syncretists, We might just have to apologize to the Church of Corinth!! it's no wonder we have such a difficulty setting ourselves apart from the "World"…..when so much time is spent creating a church that looks just like it. Scripture clearly states that all who really are saved, were earmarked before the foundation of the world by God. God has always chosen His elect. We share the Gospel b/c God uses it to bring these "elect" people to Himself. Sure we are to take the Gospel to all nations, but we are all too eagar to fill the pews, create members who think they are saved but are not!! The inate desire to see people "saved" is greater than our desire to live an obedient Holy life, to and for a Holy God……so great that we brand the newbies as fast as we can, many without even a shread of evidence that a change has ever even taken place!!

Now that the church looks just like the world, filled with synthetic seed, happy and yet unrepentant, filled all the greatest intentions instead of the Spirit , bathing ourselves in a cheap grace enabling us to feel good about ourselves and our sin, Afraid to speak out about sin and accountability, I sometimes think the Church needs more saving than the World Jesus actually came to save!!

Brian December 22nd, 2007

A few words to Steve Brown…..why spend so much time entertaining people, when you could be calling them to repentance??…you're naturally entertaining enough, certainly very knowledgeable. You make it waay too relaxing for folks to live and walk in sin and be happy about it….why not be more challenging to Christians??? Reformed (and relaxed) Christians could use a real kick in the pants, not more entertainment. How would you expect to the Apostle Paul to take you and your message seriously???

Zeke December 22nd, 2007

Yes; Steve Brown must take care lest someone walk away with the impression that Jesus' yoke is easy or his burden light… Harken instead to the hyperpenitent, who clearly know better.

Mike from Michigan December 22nd, 2007

I know my Christian walk became easier when I learned about how I had to work harder at it and constantly rid myself of every last sin in order to earn the right to call myself a Christian. That's so much easier than resting in the knowledge that God's grace is sufficient for me, and that there's nothing I can do to earn this gift. Desiring to please God out of my gratitude and love for him is not nearly as theologically correct as taking it upon myself to eliminate every sin for fear of his wrath.

Mike from Michigan December 22nd, 2007

And yeah, I should probably repent of the sarcasm.

Brian December 22nd, 2007

you are exactly proving the point……..since (if) you have been truly saved….why be so proud of your sinful saracasm?? Hey, where Grace abounds, take liberty right?? Did Christ die so that you could sin some more?? This is exactly what I am talking about…..those comfortable in their sin…..see Steve, your minions have spoken!! : ))

Mike from Michigan December 22nd, 2007

Brian,

Did I say I was proud of it? All I know is that the understanding of God's grace that I've gained from Steve Brown and others like him has changed my life. Completely. I'm far closer to God than I was when I was working so hard every day to live up to the human standard of what a Christian needs to be. God has done amazing things in my life, and most of it has been without my efforts.

I have never once heard Steve Brown teaching that it's okay to sin once you've accepted God's grace. I've heard him teach the complete opposite– that our desire to "get better" and not sin as much should spring from our gratitude at what a wonderful thing God has done for us. I might have heard him wrong, though.

Anyway, I apologize for the sarcasm. Have a nice day, and a Happy Christmas.

Mark December 22nd, 2007

Is sarcasm a sin?

Daniel December 22nd, 2007

OK IMO there is a fine line between reveling in sin and marveling in Grace, at least to the world at large…

two sides of the same coin are being argued here…

Yes we all sin and fall short, BUT Christ has redeemed us.
We will never be perfect, but we should try. God is not a 'results' based master…if that were the case we'd all be in trouble, thus we have grace that we can fellowship with our creator and not be struck down….when God looks at a Christian he sees Christ…

Merry Christmas everyone!

Brian December 22nd, 2007

Daniel,
I appreciate your desire to unite and make peace. My point is that today's culture has infected the church to the point that issues being pondered on this site, go unchallenged, and go completely accepted, and in some cases, promoted as a "christian" cause. Does not Paul tell us to remove the wicked one from among you??? Sin short circuits Christian growth much like Kryptonite would Superman….except it effects everyone…even the entire body of Christ in a church. False teaching and preaching is rampant, and in many cases, rewarded like in Joel Olsteen's case, who doesn't even mention sin. I feel sure that if Paul were resurrected today, it would be a very, very small and pure church. Unlike Benny Hinn, who is an absolute crook headed for hell at the time of this writing. Truth can always be easily compromised, as long as there are "christians" who are lax in the Grace of God to negate it.
Today's church serves Mammon…..take a Pastors income for example, most if not all,is tax deductable….I know hundreds who give to the church just for a tax break write off…..to offset their gains….what makes this different than the moneylenders in the Synagogue for which Jesus is angered in a rampage?? Do the pastors of these churches speak up and ask if they are giving to the work of God before accepting the large, varying one time donations??? I hope that one day, the govt. takes away the tax deduction status of the church, so that these folks no longer can use the church as a tax break, and pastors no longer get the freebies from a Godless Govt. Will a real church please stand up??? I'm sure many of you will say, no not my church….we don't do any of that…but I bet your pastor knows differently. We cannot serve two masters, it's either God or Mammon (money) and mostly all I see is mammon. The world even observes this, and they are correct. If the Apostle Paul were resurrected today, he would be in horror over how the church sleeps in the light resembling very little from the early years of the first assembling. How much more have we created a synthetic Jesus, one who's grace is always greater than His judgement (for fear that people will leave, or have to actually repent) …..I beg to differ. We don't talk about hell, we don't challenge people to stop sinning, we think that it's archeaic, and outdated to preach this way. The world told us that, and we just went along with it…..clinging to "Judge not lest ye be judged"……but alas we also have "Judge with righteous judgement"!! The church is void of exhortation, and the result is a wimpy, lax, easy believism which has produced the synthetic syncretic feel good Jesus who isn't too upset about the sin in our churches. Laodicea.

Brian December 22nd, 2007

Sarcasm a sin??? You tell me??

Sarcasm[A] is the sneering, sly, jesting, or mocking of a person, situation or thing…….

How would this not be quantified as coarse jesting….as stated in Scripture?

Mike, I don't doubt the value of the teaching and preaching of Steve Brown, he is every bit as entertaining as anyone could expect….and is on the correct side theologically being Reformed….although he may not be so bold for a debate on those issues. He's a good place to start for the non Christian….I think he also appeals to new Christians needing more milk than meat. I just happen to think the Church needs more meat!!

Daniel December 22nd, 2007

I think one of the many reasons Steve Brown approaches it as he does is this quote he often says:

"You may win the fight, but you'll lose the soul" I see a lot of truth in that…the world is like an abandoned, beaten dog…we have to approach it gently and nurture its wounds with care…or else it may run from us, or worse bite us…

But I know where Brian is coming from too…there is a sense in the church at large that everything is all good all the time, and there is no emphasis on the wages of sin…

There is definatly a growing dichotomy within the "church" (as there always has been), but remember everyone….PLEASE, if nothing else remember that we are all on the same team, we all want to take as many to the Father as we can get…

to use Brian's paraphrase of the bible, some need milk, and some need meat…

but most need a nice casarole… just my two cents….

oh yeah, everyone still have a merry Christmas

Zeke December 22nd, 2007

I feel sure that if Paul were resurrected today, it would be a very, very small and pure church.

Something tells me you've got some strong opinions about who should be on the membership roster. Besides you, of course.

jefe December 22nd, 2007

I'd be curious, after reading much of these most recent posts what types of things you guys believe should be repented of.

I hear "repent". Repent of what? (And don't just say 'sin'… I'm curious to know what 'sin' even means)

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Zeke states…., "Well, my point would be that repent isn't the true message of the Gospel. The true Gospel is Jesus did it. It seems you're suggesting that the Gospel really is if you do x, then Jesus will do y, or Jesus did x, so now you do y.

Exhorting people to live more like Christ isn't the Gospel. Or am I just confused about what you're saying?

Zeke….can you honsestly state on this message board that one can be saved and NOT repent?? If indeed this is your position, then you have just admitted to heresy. If Christ IS the Gospel, and you are indeed His, truly saved,…..are you actually denying that repentance is the very essence indeed which visibly sets us apart from the World? It is this thinking which puts the church today in it's lukewarm state which is rampant across the natiion. How can you call yourself a disciple and NOT feel it is your responsibility to repent?? Aren't you just reacting to the Hell-fire and brimstone preachers who only want outward change without inward conversion??? The inward should make you want and strive for the outward….you should want both…we owe it to Christ who owns our souls to be better than what you suggest.

As far as the Apostle Paul living today….you certainly wouldn't last long in His church with the "all loving" no truth Jesus you're promoting. …..it's like….hey I'm saved but I don't really need to change my life at all…..If Conversion doesn't really make a difference (ie repentance…) then that person truly isn't saved. Cheap redemption isn't redemption. So, maybe you'd like to quantify and clarify what you actually mean here????

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Jefe…..Are you really asking this?? Hey, if the Spirit hasn't convicted you inwardly of anything sinful, then I wouldn't worry about following Christ at this point in your life. You'd only be living a lie like many in the church do now. You already have the law of God written on your heart, which is supressed naturally, you need the supernatural work of God first which converts your soul…..and then you'd be able to answer your own question.

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Here's where Christ fits in with most people in America……

1 They undeniably want eternal life, without rightousness

2. They want relief from guilt without repentance…

3. Man wants to retain human dignity without giving glory to God.

Man doesn't seek for God, He only seeks after the benefits God can give him.

In addition…..man goes to great lengths to dishonor God as well as decline to give him the rightful honor He is due. Man also refuses to give thanks and gratitude for what he has been given, instead goes on in life with the feeling of having not received a better deal.

This is the way it is until you have the real Jesus in your life…..unfortunately, the church hasn't been effective in keeping itself pure over the ages, pretty much tolerates all kinds of sin as being ok, since "God loves us all so much", He won't mind.

The stats on some of these other boards discussing teenage sex in the church being equal with the world…..hey, I'd rather have one committed teen focused on the word, then fill it up with a bunch of kids who don't value the Scriptures….

Brian December 23rd, 2007

"then" in the last sentence of the last post, should read…"than"…big difference… : )))

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Please, let's make something perfectly clear…..Most of my points are not directed toward the "unchurched" "unsaved"…(as many of you in prior posts thought by posting examples of Christ reaching out to those lost. .. They don't know any better, and have yet to hear the Gospel. It is primarily those who claim to be Christians and are "in the Church" who live just like the world and think it is ok to do so. Very little accountability goes on, and hence, you have folks eventually settle in for whatever sin they have to deal with as if it's ok, cuz it's been forgiven, and continue doing it….this is an abomination in the eyes of God, especially for the leadership. Anyone remember what the requirments are for those in leadership in a church?? This is what I'm talking about, and you can see on this board why it is we are in the mess we're in.

Zeke December 23rd, 2007

Zeke….can you honsestly state on this message board that one can be saved and NOT repent??

What I'm saying is that if you believe that you must repent in order to be saved, then you'd better be straight up, dead-on right about what it means to repent, and you'd better do it perfectly because God's standard is perfection. Everything short of perfection is our realm.

So we all fall somewhere between NOT repenting and repenting. And on the repenting side, it's ALL imperfection. If you want to start judging how close to perfection one guy gets compared to the next guy, know that you're just comparing differing degrees of dirty laundry to the whitest linens–nothings going to look right next to perfection. If that's the game you want to play, if that's the game you think God wants you to play, then I think you are sadly mistaken and you're going to end up making your own life and others' lives more difficult than they need to be–as if life isn't hard enough already.

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Zeke, reread my posts more carefully, and one can easily see that I am not suggesting that one must repent, in order to be saved (Order Salutis) where do you see I say that??. If you see the order which I have stated salvation takes place…if you're a Steve Brown minion, then you would agree that Conversion "precedes" Repentence….by which I have consistently stated and wholeheartedly agree…but at some point, very close to that inward conversion, a desire and strive for repentance should and "must" be taking place over sin…and over time one should see sanctification truly take place….the point is we are NOT seeing this happen across reformed churches or even non-reformed ones. We have the fullness of truth, but where's the follow through?? A Gospel embraced which doesn't finish the race, isn't a biblical one….and must be examined and reviewed as instructed in Scripture. A major mistake of Reformed believers is to be reactionary, go toward one extreme to prove or make a point….but in so doing, invalidate the actual truth of the whole point to begin with. For ex…..the debate about Grace vs Truth within the PCA. (Presbyterian Church in America). In order to "show" how Grace abounds, they relax on "works" (remember, these are saved people we're talking about) to prove their case of Grace alone by Faith, in so doing, they relax the need to strive and repent. The other side contends that works are a solid show of Grace at work in a believer, which also isn't always the case in and of itself. So, in effort to negate the Grace only folks who have a tendancy to forget the book of James, they concentrate on striving harder. Neither of these can be negated…..and it is sad that these divisions take place at all, but the error I believe has swayed on those who take liberty in sin, more than those strive to please God in obedience. We have gotten lax, fat, and happy about it. Just look at how the Church blends in with the World, statistic after statistic, and you get the point. So, if you are truly saved, the same Grace which saved you should also be compelling you to repent when you sin. With all the false teaching across America, with so many churches making up their own version of the 10 commandments, sexual liberties which go unquestioned, leadership promoting sin, etc……most just say, hey, it's only b/c we're still sinners!!….and declare it like a tax right off. We weren't saved to be just like the world, I hope you're getting the point.

jefe December 23rd, 2007

Brian said:
Jefe…..Are you really asking this?? Hey, if the Spirit hasn't convicted you inwardly of anything sinful, then I wouldn't worry about following Christ at this point in your life. You'd only be living a lie like many in the church do now. You already have the law of God written on your heart, which is supressed naturally, you need the supernatural work of God first which converts your soul…..and then you'd be able to answer your own question.

See? I knew I'd either get a smartassed response or none at all, regarding my question.

I'm just curious what types of things you guys think need to be repented of.

I mean, do I have to repent for thinking most of the "Repent and be saved" guys are judgmental douchebags? Do many here need to repent for BEING judgmental douchebags?

I can answer my question for myself. I'm just curious what some of the "repent and be saved" guys think warrants repentance.

(Oh, and I thought it was the goodness of God that draws men to repentance, not the blog-ramblings of judgmental douchebags…)

jefe December 23rd, 2007

Did I say 'judgmental douchebags'? I meant 'reactionary jackholes'…

[/inside joke]

Harry December 23rd, 2007

I too was bummed to see such a response. I was hoping for some good interaction on this topic. I struggle with repentance…

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Hey Jefe, It's actually a very correct response…and btw….I might add you just proved yourself to be exactly why I said what I said. : ))) See….the Bible isn't for everyone….just like I stated in the beginning. Too bad the truth pisses you off, why ask a question you actually admitted you already knew?? I don't throw Pearls before Swine. Maybe Zeke can help you with your problem…cuz God sure hasn't yet.

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Harry, if you're an honest and respectful seeker of truth, why not pose a perplexing question that you are struggling with??

Harry December 23rd, 2007

I don't think this is really the place for opening up and sharing my junk. I have read all of this thread and I'm pretty sure I'd get called a non-Christian (or worse) if I shared all of the sins I am struggling with at this time. Let's just say it feels like I sin a whole lot more than I repent. I know I am a believer, but I continue to struggle with the same habitual sins. Has my repentance been false, since I continue to struggle with the same sins? Sometimes I look forward to sinning. I run toward sin, even though it is not the best for me. Does this mean that I am not really a believer at all?

jefe December 23rd, 2007

why ask a question you actually admitted you already knew??

Funny. My question was: I'm just curious what types of things you guys think need to be repented of.

I only said I knew what I need to repent of.

I think that is the primary consideration here. People want to judge the homosexual out here in the open. but when I ask you to open up a little, you can't. because you are an anonymous poster with no backbone.

I didn't ask you to judge me, Brian. According to the Bible you love to quote, only God can justifiably do that.

You can call me "swine" all you want, but you do not know me. Unlike people who have taken the time to get to know me here on this site, you do not know the extent of my faith in God. You do not know my beliefs (althoug you're welcome to click my name and learn a bit about me — I see no link for you, whoever you are…).

And the question I asked was very genuine. I truly want to know what the judgmental douchebags feel needs repentance. It's my attempt to get to understand you better.

(but we both know you'll continue skirting the issue, don't we?)

Brian December 23rd, 2007

Jefe, in what "appears" to be your misconception….is the fact that you must first be "saved" before you can "repent"!! This is the way God does it…if at all. There is no "repent" and then be "saved" taught in Scripture. I certainly have never suggested that, where did you get that from?? You don't cause yourself to be saved…which is part of the problem we have in America today. Salvation by self appointment. Only God can do this for you. There are many who say Lord Lord, we did this in your name, did miracles, cast out demons, gave lots of money, served in the church, etc….but only the one's Christ chooses will be saved. This is the absolute Bibilical Truth….Steve Brown will tell you the same, why not ask him??

The whole point being, is that some go to heaven, and others are sent to hell. We all deserve hell. It is God's mercy and love which allows some of His choosing to escape this absolute eternal horror which He Himself created! I don't make the rules, God does, and why not ask him why He's chosen to do it that way?? God is good to all in some ways, yet good to some in all ways.

jefe December 23rd, 2007

but only the one's Christ chooses will be saved… It is God's mercy and love which allows some of His choosing to escape this absolute eternal horror which He Himself created!

There. That wasn't so hard was it?

btw- I never made mention of salvation coming before or after repentance. So I didn't "get that from" anywhere.

Now, regarding your answer, it is I who can no longer cast my "salvation by grace through faith" pearls before the swine of "predestination". Good luck with that…

Brian December 24th, 2007

Ummmm Jefe…..let's see….what part of what I said caused you to insult me so demeaningly?? Me?? No backbone?? : )) Please don't diminish your own character in a manner like this. If you really feel I deserve this, then go right ahead….but personal attacks only hurt your cause and keep people (like me) from wanting to even respond to you. I really don't care if you like me personally or not…I'm not here to be liked by you or anyone else on this board, only to make clear what the scriptures say. Your questions come across disingenuine and very sarcastic! Put your self in my shoes, reread the posts and how would you respond?? If you want a response to what God thinks about all sin (including Homosexuality)….read the Bible. If you want me to assure you that God loves you no matter what sins are in your life, I won't do that. Each person is ultimately on his/her own with this. Narrow is the way which leads to eternal life, wide is the way which leads to destruction. Hey, Jesus isn't trying to save everyone, He isn't even obligated to save anyone!! Yet if He has chosen you, it has yet to show up with the content of your responses. Jesus tells us "not to thrown pearls before swine"…prove to me otherwise, and maybe I'll consider responding to you further.

Brian December 24th, 2007

Jefe states, " mean, do I have to repent for thinking most of the "Repent and be saved" guys are judgmental douchebags? Do many here need to repent for BEING judgmental douchebags?

Aren't you being one??

Repent and be saved??? Oooops?? Yes, you most certainly did mention it. : ))

Hey, btw…"Saving faith" isn't even yours…it is a gift "from God" if you even have it at all. Yes, I can and do question your faith. If it bothers you, then your faith isn't real. don't even have to 'know" you…..Look at what you spew, would you call yourself a Christian??? You've lost your "witness" with me….I'll stick to my original observation until I see otherwise, "Pearls before Swine"
Why would anyone want to listen to your crap?? That's all I've seen so far from you, can't you do any better than this??

Zeke December 24th, 2007

Kumbaya. Seriously.

Daniel December 24th, 2007

Merry freakin' Christmas everyone…

No seriously Merry Christmas!!!

Harry if you are still checking on here, go to the main forums from the KLF site, there are a lot of good people there who would encourage you and talk about pretty much everything eith you…that goes for everyone else too!

(I was not paid for that promotion of the forums… ;))

Brian December 24th, 2007

Romans 7, Harry….welcome to the Club!! : ))

Ellen January 13th, 2008

Just reading the last several posts, I can still see Jesus weeping [John 11:35]. And just before His birthday, what's wrong with you all??

Haven't been here for a while and don't have lottsa time right now but ya know, I wish we all could sit face-to-face and openly discuss why you all hate us [yep, I IZ GAY] so much. AND, if Jesus was at the coffee house with us, do ya think you'd talk about us like you do here in FRONT of Him? BTW, He just might have a REAL glass of wine, ya know 12%!! Must admit though I do prefer a good java buzz. Do loooovve my coffee!

I'm telling ya all, if you said anything as derogatory toward Gays and use the foul insults you do toward one another as you have done here, I wonder if Jesus would throw you out as He did with the money changers or would He just weep for you as He did for Jerusalem.

I wonder . . . . .

Jesus was logical & practical. You all let your juvenile emotions control many of your posts. AND PLEASE I'm not referring to ALL of you per say, It's more of a rhetorical statement [Oy Vey!]. Yep, I personally would love to dialogue with any of you face-to-face. Hey, I live in Washington, anyone live here? Live near Port Angeles.
Come on some brave soul, show ya got a pair, huh? We'll sit and talk this out. You might even find that I am just like you. I don't have horns, I'm not evil, not possessed [although once, when I was exorcised and didn't pay the Preacher's bill, I was RE-possessed Only kidding LOL].

I come from 30+ years of fundamental Christianity and know how judgmental we can be. When I came out to a friend of 15+ years it was strange. All of a sudden she didn't want my friendship any more. I wasn't any different. If Jesus's love lived inside her, and I know He didn't turn His back on me, why did she? Human nature tells me sooo much about how we all think. AND sometimes, we don't think like Jesus.

Let me ask you, and be honest: Really, What would Jesus do about me that would be different than what YOU would do or say about me?

I know I will here from you soon ~ But I also know Jesus reads this, He knows our hearts and weeps for our minds.

Ellen

Anyway, I hope you all had a very BLESSED CHRISTmas and will have a healthy, prosperous, vibrant and vital New Year and years to come.

Christov January 14th, 2008

Hi Ellen,

Holler if you make it to Middle Tennessee. Bring your sea kayak, and if there's any water left in the lakes here, we can paddle and talk about it.

Pax,

C.

cathleen January 16th, 2008

this is the second time I have stepped into this website and if it was not for the fact it is under Steve Brown's name, I would be hard pressed to know you are Christians. "They will know we are Christians by our love." If we are all of one body you should stop self mutilation. It is no wonder some of our churches are in trouble. What happened to "one accord" and building one another up? We should be walking in love and giving it away. You cannot give away what you do not have. There are many sins and God hates them all. I may no longer be a thief but I may still be a liar. In other words, no matter how many sins I "get rid of" there are still more that need to go. Even Billy Graham sinned every day. We ALL fall short of the glory of God - forever! But thank God there is a cure, the blood of His precious Son that COVERS our sin from His view. In the words of Joyce Meyers, "I am not where I need to be, but thank God I am not where I was." It is not our job to judge ANYONE. Only God knows the heart and only He can judge. Try walking in the peace and joy of the Lord. If you have difficulty in that, ask Him to give you His peace and joy. I do not hear peace and joy coming throught most of this site. Bickering amongst ourselves is not Gods will.

I must say as an aside, I raised three girls and come from a large family and work on the railroad, so bad language is nothing new for me to hear or use, but if my daughter used some of the words I have read here I would have washed out her mouth. I am not easily offended but some gentlemen have no clue as to what is offensive and need to learn.

Ellen January 17th, 2008

Preach it Mama!

Hey, maybe they made New Years resolutions to quit condemning Gays. I never heard Jesus condemning us, hopefully, as He did, "they will do likewise." But I still like dialoging. So come back ya all.

Have some interesting info for you to research. The Nicene Counsel for one. Ya know, it was like working at Microsoft and deciding how to write the code for the programs: what "operations" would be included in the program[s] to make them perform the "functions" they do. Every software program has a "wish list" and folks submit desires for future programs. Wonder if that's what is was like at Nicene. Hummmm, ever wonder what went down at Nicene??

Ellen

Brian January 20th, 2008

Hmmmm….Is peace truly possible with so much sin in the world?? Or is it just that facade of tolerance much like the World exposed in the "Matrix". World Peace is a pipe dream. Too much evil in the world….oh yes…even your "everyone lets' just all get along" tribunal monalogue" is a total gaff. Even Jesus said that the next time He returns, it will be with sword in hand!! Our culture has succombed to the reasoning that "offending" someone has replaced "sin itself". Jesus speaks out about sin throughout the New Testament. His disciples were quite active in making "judgments" upon others quite avidly Hey, they're not man's rules you are reacting to….they're God's rules….and if you think it's a sin to "evaluate" what is and isn't sinful in accordance with Scripture, then it's time you join the Church of Scientology or some other "Cult" or perhaps hook up with Joel Osteen since he won't talk about your sin either, and promotes the goodness of the "inner man", choosing to neglect what Jesus clearly teaches is sin. The above posts by Ellen, cathleen, and anybody else proporting that a concern over sin is "wrong to discuss or even judge or evaluate according to the scriptures" ….are great examples of folks living in denial of the Scriptures. They want to be accepted for the way they live their lives, and readily "CONDEMN" those who expose their sin for what it is. So, go ahead and condemn those who bear witness to the REAL TRUTH and spread the True version of the Biblical Jesus…..cuz the way you think the world "should" be creates the sort of weak, fearful, PC crap that freedom of Speech gives everyone the right to freely discuss. Doesn't mean they are correct, but everyone has the freedom to say anything they want, like in the above case, where a metapyhsical jesus forgives all and judges no one. And for the record….I am completely comfortable judging anyone and anything on this message board, as I already have here…..and by the way….just as many of you all who espouse the same "no judgement zone" crapola……in so doing, you do the same by "judging those who pass judgment". Oooooops!!!! : )))

Brian January 20th, 2008

OH and by the way….Homosexuality,, Lesbianism, and any form or sex "excess" outside the confines of a God ordained marriage….is Sin. Read the first chapter of Romans. Please feel free to judge me all you want for making these references, but in so doing, you also are judging "others" in the very same fashion. Why not just stick with the free speech and have a good shoot out??? What are you all afraid of….affending someone??? Go ahead and offend, correct, moderate, or say whatever you want, It won't offend me. Better to offend me than to offend God though right????

Brian January 22nd, 2008

Whenever someone says, "you can't judge anybody"…..it is they who attempt to make an absolute judgment toward those making judgements for which they disagree. Everything we think and do is based on observation and judgment. If we truly are of "One body" then maybe we really should be much more agreeable to the Scriptures…..and yet, at times, we tend to differ just as Paul and Peter did over circumcision and the law. But when someone quotes a heretic like Joyce Meyer….it is no wonder the problem. Cathleen….here's the truth about Joyce Meyer….http://www.pfo.org/wan-star.htm
She is clearly a false teacher, and is not to be sought out as a source of wisdom or truth. Scripture Twister….wanna play??

The problem comes when the church becomes so polluted and lukewarrm with all sorts of wicked (Corinthian style) sin which goes unquestioned and without any earthly consequence or discipline. You ask why the church is weak?? B/C it is mingling with false doctrines, allowing false teaching to stand, (such as Joyce Meyer) and lowering the Holiness of God to a standard level of anything goes so that we fill pews, add "souls" to the kingdom….so that $ goes up…..oh but alas don't judge anyone…..it's not our place??? Paul tells the Church of Corinth (same as America) to remove the wicked one from among you. ie those who insist that sin "isn't sin" and continue in it, and exchange the truth for lies….so that they can continue a false forgiveness from an apostate synthetic Jesus who would be less upset about sin than his disciple Paul.

The body in America isn't one…..that's the problem we are dealing with. Like Solomon we have sold out needing to be liked by the world, so we give em something worldy so they will feel good and unaffended while sitting through a sermon, usually something positive with a lump of grace, a tickle of entertainment, only to realize what we've created bears little resemblance to the "clay" God intended….(more like a claymore). We have turned Love into something conveniently forgiving instead of something reverent and Holy and convicting. We all want to be "feel good christians" and to think that God must always be "crazy about us"….as we are told even by some within this website. Do you ever find it odd that you never hear sermons resembling Jonathan Edwards??? We are a generation afraid of the negative, with such a lack of confidence in God to let Him grow His People….so we grow our own synthetic seed. Paul was not a "feel good" Christian. He argued in the Temple daily (just as Jesus did) and instead, we just modify (lower) our message to fit our culture…

That's why we have a rampant issue of sin from within the church …..too much PC….from within the PCA, We have reacted toward Grace in such a way as to reject messages with substantive truth, exhortation, and discipline….in fear of the accusations from such comments you see above….what a weak shameful state the church is in right now. Laodicea later!!

dorsey January 22nd, 2008

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah…

sorry, I just wanted to hear myself talk, too.

Mark January 22nd, 2008

Dorsey, that might just be the best comment I have read online in weeks. Seriously.

Erik January 22nd, 2008

I agree, that was good. But my favorite online comment in the past few weeks was, "I'll hold the phones and the wallets."

Brad January 22nd, 2008

People. People. People. Don't you know? If we are the body, why is there what almost seems to be hostility amongst ourselves?

Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

We are commanded to LOVE. Lets leave the rest to Dad!

That's it. LOVE. Quit beating yourselves up on who commits which sin. What sin is worse. If you do this you will have 2 black eyes and knock the wind out of yourself. Worry about meditating. What we can do with our energy to help others, rather than beat each other and ourselves up.As Christians, we have enough issue with the non believer beating us up. Lets concentrate on praying for them rather than debating with each other.

Take a moment, close your eyes, and thank Jesus for his love. Ask him how we can love EVERYONE (enemy included) just as He does. God Bless.

Brad

Erik January 22nd, 2008

Let the record show that I repented.

Steve C January 22nd, 2008

And I thought the comments on our site got nasty…. Stupid Church People needs to do a whole show on homosexuality. Talk about getting the comment counts up!!

It's coming people. SCP loves the gays… and the gays love us.

And for my two cents… culture changes, people change, the world changes… God's big enough to figure it all out.

Ellen January 22nd, 2008

For Brian,

Nice to find someone who thinks Joyce Meyer is a "shmendrick." But hey, Jesus loves her, I disagree with her but yea, gotta love her. Even if she is a "neo-maxi-zoomed-dweebee."

Also, Ever wonder at the Nicene Counsel how the NT & OT cannon books were chosen? You ought to check into that. Lottsa folks sittin' round arguin'. Tell me, is that "God Breathed?"

And how were the books translated to begin with. [the word] Homosexuality didn't exist until 1860 [approx.].

Some of you are soooo afraid of thinking outside your self-righteous fundamental box.

The texts in Romans that you refer to reference sexual relations with male prostitutes. NT times [including ALL of history] was male dominated. Don't know how else to put it but males controlled everything. If a woman ever tried to assume ANY leadership role she was "condemned" for it.

Sometimes we need to read about the times the Bible was written in to understand it fully. Translations from one language to another have a tendency to "lose" exact meanings. Hey, if you translated Shakespeare into German, I think it COULD get lost in the translation, as the expression goes.

I'll get back to ya on more of this. Man, I'm such a lousy typist, wish we could sit at a table and talk face-to-face. Hey, I'll make the coffee ~ have an espresso maker, anyone interested??

ellabella [a TOTAL bowzerbird]

dorsey January 22nd, 2008

Ellen, you had me at 'espresso.'

Brian January 23rd, 2008

HI Ellen,
You bring up some good topics, sorry that most of Steve's minions on this website wouldn't give you the time of day…..they stay silent on the issues and would rather Kumbaya or be funny like their mentor Steve Brown. You deserve more than just words of love, you deserve answers too, something rarely put forth from shallow folks on this board.

I'm glad that you see Joyce Meyer for the same way many "Christian leader-teachers" are, shallow on content and a bit too full of themselves….but the real issue is the embracement of Health Wealth Prosperity Theology which is defined by one's varying experiences of "miracles" and personal "interactions" rather than something absolute such as Gods Word. Check out this PDF file for an example of this synthetic and destructive theology. http://www.smallings.com/Books/ProspENG.pdf

This brings me to clarify how the additions of the "canon' or standard came to be.

Before the writings of the New Testament (NT) ….their was a long standing record already established with the Old Testament and has since been verified by certain findings in 1947 with the Dead Sea Scrolls. http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_dead_sea_scrolls.html

The OT is the basis of the NT….without it, it would be very difficult to expect someone to understand much of the "fullfillment" reasoning why Christ even came at all! The scrolls were a break through discovery, containing much older portions of Isaiah than what was even known to exist, and it was "word for word" exact to the later scripts!! The Authority of the OT well supercedes and sets the foundation of anything else which follows, and during the Nicene Council, this was absolutely taken under consideration. For a link which describes how this process took place visit this link, http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/EssentialTruths%20RC%20Sproul.pdf

This is an online version of Dr. RC Sproul's book "Essential Truths of the Christian Faith" which in Part 1 Chapter 7, goes into great length detailing how "inspiration" of the scripture arose, and how surprisingly few out of thousands reviewed, actually had any contention of being considered as being nothing more than plain heresy. Sproul writes,

"Though Protestants believe that God gave special providential care to insure that the proper books be included, He did not thereby render the church itself infallible. Protestants also remind Roman Catholics that the
church did not “create” the Canon. The church recognized, acknowledged, received, and submitted to the canon of Scripture. The term the church used in Council was recipimus, “We receive.”
By what criteria were books evaluated? The so-called marks of canonicity included the following:
1. They must have apostolic authorship or endorsement.
2. They must be received as authoritative by the early church.
3. They must be in harmony with the books about which there is no doubt.
Though at one stage in his life Martin Luther questioned the canonicity of James, he later changed his mind. There is no serious reason to be the least bit doubtful that the books presently included in the New Testament canon are the proper ones"
More is included in the link, I hope you will find it was much more than just a bunch of men argueing about which books they felt like including.

On the topic of Homosexuality. It has long been thought that the Bible contains no references regarding women with regard to sexual relations with another women" and it often goes implied with the general verses describing regard to it as sin as found throughout the OT (sodom) where we get the term "sodomy". I have a very good friend who happens to be a lesbian who considers her relationship with her partner totally normal by her "experience" and yet
In Romans Chapter 1 vs 26 and 27, Paul makes very clear that both women and men are equally addressed in terms of their "exchange of normal function" and fullfil this lust with same sex partners. It is refered to as indecent and a degrading passion. Both genders are provided in this text, with equal application, not merely "male prostitutes" as you had asserted although it certainly would include that. This is all to say that other forms of sexual relations would also be corrupt as well, sex before marriage, any form of degradation of sex the way God intended….even in marriage!! We have all been brought to a lower standard of this by the society around as well as from our natural lustful hearts within….Jesus says it is from within the heart of man that sin originates. We inherit that nature at birth from our forefather Adam as well as many others after him.

As far as the accuracy of Scripture from translation to translation, there have been so many texts written over thousands of years in which to authenticate with what we have now. You will see in Chapters 8, 9, and 10 go on to explain how interpretation is rendered. The bible is actually a collection of books written over thousands of years which bear revelation of the God of creation to a lost world. Yes men have controlled for long enough, messed up much, and are technically responsible for alot of the garbage we have today…..God dealt directly with Adam during his first sin, one which puts us in the muck we are in right now. But we all sin. Only Christians are empowered to sin "less" but by no means ever become sinless until we receive glorified bodies in heaven. It's Gods world, and He makes the rules that many Christians just don't think they need to follow, so hence the hypocritical church that seems all so the norm….every non Christian I know is exactly correct in pointing this out. When you have the church full of folks who aren't very serious about confronting their own sin much less somebody elses, this is what you end up with. I appreciate you Ellen, and I would enjoy dialogueing more in the future…..I know some ot the struggles are not easy, but Christ offers hope, power to change, and the power to maintain a solid and steadfast faith. Even the Faith we have, if it's salvific faith, is a gift from God, not of ourselves….so that no one can boast that they acheived it by their own doing.

I hope this helps, and I appreciate that Espresso. : ))

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Brad,
While I appreciate your desire to "unite", just be careful of who you are uniting. It sounds well and good to talk about being of one body, but that's just it…..the body we have now in our churches isn't one!! It's all divided, let's mix in a little sin, a little false teaching, some feel good messages to lift my wounded heart and poor self esteem. We have the Words of the living God, and still people in the church want Oprah and Dr Phil!! Sorry dude….I am very very careful with whom I "unite" and sup with and it's usually either real christians or non christians….cuz at least I know where they stand. Nobody knows anything about anyone on this board other than what's posted, so……you can suit yourself but I'll find my own clothes to wear, thanks.

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Dorsey,
You may not be what you think you are…..but what you think…..YOU ARE! : ))) Whatsover a man thinketh so he is….a blah ?? Let's hear yourself talk some more blah please…just like a minion : )))

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Just another anicdot about love….Hell will be filled with alot of nice people, loving people, caring people, hard working, self sacrificing, Those who cried out "Lord lord", those who claim they did many miracles, cast out demons, and anybody the Lord chose not to save! He has every right to throw me in there as well as all of you!! I know some nice, very "loving atheists and agnostics" , but it doesnt make me want to become one. Let's make something absolutely clear…..a person's loving attitude must not be confused with a "Christian" attutude. All the love a person could ever show you, is not enough to save you….this is how cults work. We have the absolute truth of the almighty God to which heaven and earth owe's it's very existence. If I had to pick between love and truth….I'll take Truth ….it is by truth's very substance that love has any meaning at all.

Brian January 23rd, 2008

DIdn't Jesus say I am the way the TRUTH and the life??? The love so often thrown around isn't a "God based" love at all.

dorsey January 23rd, 2008

Brian,

"Whatsover a man thinketh so he is…"

???

I hate to break it to you, but the John in the bible is not John Maxwell. Please show me where "it is written," apart from your self-help library.

blah, blah, blah…

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Well Dorsey

Proverbs 23:7…..a book of wisdom, not for the foolish though however. Blah Blah Blah….guess you overlooked it. It originates with God,not John Maxwell. It is written…… Ooooops : )))

Mark January 23rd, 2008

Brian - Which translation are you using? I'm following along at home and my translation says that verse a little differently. In the NASB, verse 7 (included here along with 6 & 8 for context) says:

6Do not eat the bread of a selfish man,
Or desire his delicacies;
7For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
He says to you, "Eat and drink!"
But his heart is not with you.
8You will vomit up the morsel you have eaten,
And waste your compliments.

I know it seems a little nit-picky, but this passage seems to be teaching how to react to a selfish man, not so much an anthropological statement about the inward relationship of a man's thoughts to the outward display of who he is. What do you think? I could be way off - I'm no Biblical scholar…

Mr. Rogers January 23rd, 2008

We should all go to a 50 Cent concert together. That man can rap!

Mr. Rogers January 23rd, 2008

Erik? By the way, I'm still waiting for a reply about the "nip".

Erik January 23rd, 2008

Rogers,

1. Put a sock in it.

2. Cut and paste if you want a reply. There are 242 comments here and, unlike you, I have a day job. You lazy, sneaker wearing, neighborhood of make believe sweater-phile.

3. Give King Friday a kiss for me.

Mr. Rogers January 23rd, 2008

Friday's on a hot date with Miss Piggy. It's just me and Henrietta at home watching "You've Got Mail".

dorsey January 23rd, 2008

Brian,

Mark's right. That's quite a leap of logic you have going there. Keep trying.

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Mark,
good point. One meaning…many summaries. I actually couldn't have explained this any better than you did. While it does place a context upon dealing with the selfish man, it is also true that one's thinking determines the direction of his path. Wasn't really trying to make a mountain out of this, Dorsey assumed there was no bibilcal basis for such a statement, and alas, there actually is!! I appreciate the fine tooth and comb…."iron sharpens iron"….but now I'm wondering if that's in the bible as well…maybe Dorsey can help us out here?? : )))

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Dorsey,

Why such a leap of logic?? It's very true…you're just trying to save face from your original accusation. You obviously don't like what I've said….why don't you explain why you would write blah blah blah 23x as if in total disrespect?? Why not stick to the issues and stay away from being insulting….remember, you struck first with no real reason given. Your turn to explain yourself.

Brad January 23rd, 2008

Brian

How about this. Go to your church and try and love everyone you can. If you don't agree with what certain churches believe, don't go to them. But try your best to love, after all that is our greatest commandment.

God Bless,

Brad

Brad January 23rd, 2008

Brian,

I just read your novel up there…very interesting. Luke 6:37 my brother. God Bless.

dorsey January 23rd, 2008

Brian,

With well over 200 comments on this thread spanning more than six months, what caused you to assume I was disrespecting you, specifically? Your assumption reveals a lot.

(I still don't believe Proverbs 23 says what you tried to make it mean.)

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Sorry Brad,
Love void of truth isn't love at all. Love doesn't always unite and make people agreeable. God is love, but without obedience to God, how can we really say we love Him?? Love is a byproduct of having God's truth inside you. Without that truth, your love is in vain. Reread some of my earlier posts. Brad, it isn't "just" about love. How would you describe love in a way which doesn't involve God's truth?? Was Jesus loving when he overturned the Money changers in the Temple?? When Jesus hurls, "You brood of Vipers" (4 letter word equivelent) is he being loving?? Discipline I believe, IS a form of love…. Otherwise why care at all? Which is apathy…and seen quite avidly in the church and on this message board. On one hand we have judge lest ye be judged….and on another we have John 7:24 which says Judge with rightous judgment!! Later on we see in John 14:15 where Jesus says, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments". What kind of love might you be suggesting otherwise??? What role of Discipline would you suggest is missing from the Church today?? How pleased is God to see all this apathy, sin, and lack of discipline in HIs Church or is it all hunky dory to you? Sometimes the Grace we offer the unsaved, rivals the best that universalism has to offer!! I think you get the point. We could be making such a huge difference if Christians were more serious about the Word, and their walk with God. Christians are fat, happy, comfortable, and care more about their own curt remarks….Judging my words just as you say we shouldn't judge?? Hmmmm…….looks like you already have.

Brian January 23rd, 2008

Dorsey,
I'm still waiting for your response?? Why won't you respect me enough to explain what it was that caused you to respond with these words regarding one of my posts:

"blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah…

sorry, I just wanted to hear myself talk, too."

Explain how this is NOT insulting??

Hey, it's ok…..you are free to do so, but just explain why so we can see that it's justified.

dorsey January 23rd, 2008

Let me ask again.

With well over 200 comments on this thread spanning more than six months, what caused you to assume I was responding to your post, specifically?

Brian January 24th, 2008

Dorsey,
You are in Prideful denial….just admit it. I do forgive you however…even if you never ask for it. I'll leave the rest for God to decide. : ))) Just wish you'd be honest with yourself about it…and with us on this board, since you made an insulting remark which anyone can see you were responding to my post……hey, it's your "Christian life".

greg from canada January 24th, 2008

Im sorry Brain, but I do have to agree with Dorsey becasue I was thinking the same thing about this post. Yours just happened to be the one at the bottom.

dorsey January 24th, 2008

(Brian, I'm not addressing you specifically with this first comment. This is for everyone)

There's a mindset within the christian subculture that operates on a rather quirky reading of Jesus' words in John 15: "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." Combine that with the mindset that "God's word is as plain as the nose on your face," and you get this subset of persons who now have carte blanche to pronounce "THE TRUTH" (which is actually just their own–or, worse, someone else's– opinion of how their favorite translation of scripture should be interpreted) with no regard for their condescending and deprecative manner. When they're called on the carpet for being such tools, their response is something like, "Yay, I'm pissing people off. I must be doing something right. THIS must be the very CENTER of God's WILL!" [/cue-ode-to-joy].

Just an observation…

Now,
Brian,

Let me be clear. My blah, blah comment was specifically in regard to the fact that this dead-horse of a thread is still being kicked after almost eight months! Over two hundred and fifty comments later, nothing has been accomplished, except the same old arguments being argued from the same old quarters. I've read a hundred threads just like this one over the years. After the initial opinions have been offered, the homosexuality discussion always devolves into people talking just to hear themselves talk, as if the last person to comment or the person with the highest word count somehow wins. So mine was a comment on the futility of this discussion, in general.

But, lest you think I am still in denial, let me also be clear about my disrespect for your self-righteous posturing. Early in this thread, you condemned someone for their "sinful sarcasm," but then resorted to sarcasm yourself in subsequent comments. You refused to answer Jefe's legitimate questions, and called him a swine, unworthy of your "pearls" of wisdom. Further, you implied that he couldn't perceive truth because he wasn't "in." Then, you pull a statement from it's proper context in a particular translation of Proverbs and present it as a stand-alone universal truism. I'm sorry, but, in my opinion (which I acknowledge as just that), you represent the worst kind of pharisaical truth-twisting.

And, before you turn the tables and announce to everyone what kind of terrible christian I am, let me save you the trouble. I'm clearly an imperfect man. I don't always live according to what I profess, and I'm in need of repentance. Today, I need to repent for allowing yet another self-righteous snake to draw me into a rage. What I wouldn't give to have that time back.

Thanks for the forgiveness, though…

Brad January 24th, 2008

Not judging your words Brian. The problem is brother, we are all sinners. If I were Adam I'd of eaten the apple. Just as you would have.

Mark January 24th, 2008

I would have eaten the banana because it is appealing.

I couldn't resist…we all need to smile or roll our eyes now and then.

Brian January 24th, 2008

Ok Greg….thanks for clearing all of this up. So he was responding to??? There was no dialogue taking place at the time of that comment between anyone else. But anyway, let's move on shall we??….the responses of many folks on this "blog" are the result of the teachings from Steve Brown which lack affirmation in God's Word as an absolute authority over one's "experience" dealing with repentance and forgiveness. Offering "3 free sins" when Jesus says "Go and sin no more" is an all out abomination. Steve's coarse jesting support of Neo Grace obstructs true biblical repentance in an attempt to make it sound archaeic and out of date and offers an existential approach in it's place bordering on Universalism.

Placing a greater "Authority" on "feeling and experience" than on the Scriptures themselves cannot possbily result in "biblcal repentance" and is therefor no different than any charasmatic or clever guru sprinkling anecdotes instead of Scripture to foster their causes, in this case, the Neo Grace agenda. He routinely denounces others adherance to "biblical authority" and states,

"Whenever religion becomes leverage, it ceases to be the religion of Jesus. The gospel of God's grace takes away the leverage."

Does it take it away?? Does not the Gospel of Grace then become the leverage?? Is Grace all there is to the Gospel?? Why stop there?? Universalists would also be in hearty agreement!! Were we saved just to "experience" (there's that word again) forgiveness?? Or rather isn't this just a part of biblical sanctification involving repentance, the working out of that salvation you've received, and the living out of a life passionately resonating and making a difference with that faith in a steadfast obedience to Scripture. Neo Grace says not! It says you are entitled to feel forgiven without true repentance, that God is "crazy about you" when in fact the "unrepentant" sinner grieves the Holy Spirit and may still be actually be unsaved and under the wrath of God! No where in Scripture do we see a God who states that He loves us "unconditionally". This is why it borders on Universalism. It absolutely promotes and creates a comfort zone where sin can be president, as well as resident, and thus allowing one to create an attitude of thinking that God is never offended by the sin of a believer…so one needn't be too concerned about it….sin get's tossed and joked about so flipantly and callously as if it's not really that important anymore on the "Blog". Repentance and obedience are soon left in the dust and replaced with a narcisistic and even egotistical reactionary response toward the traditional reformed views of repentance and obedience…which at some point, will may result in a theological "shift" in changing our understanding of the character of God..and turns it more into a "caracature"….or cartoon version of the Gospel.

Steve also states,

"You see, if I'm forgiven without condition, you can't make me feel guilty. If God loves me, you can't manipulate me by threatening to take away your love. If God knows my secrets and doesn't condemn me, my secrets can't be used as blackmail. If you have power and threaten to use it against me and I don't care, your power is no longer real power."

Let's examine this. This might be true…..if God's Word didn't say in Ephesians 4:30: " And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". If it is possible to grieve God, then what Steve is saying cannot be true. This also causes one to negate even having to think about I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and rightous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightousness". Why would God write this to "believers" if He no longer wanted us to think we could never offend Him with our sin as Steve states??

Let's take the next point where Steve writes,
" If God loves me, you can't manipulate me by threatening to take away your love".

God's love is not something we should take for granted either, which is just as manipulating as God would be to threaten to take it back! (although He would have every right!!) This again, is reactionary. It's a dangerous thing to create a doctrine on a hyperbole. Having God's love doesn't mean we ever had the "right" to it. It's still Christ's rightousness applied which makes us get along at all with God. If we take sin lightly, we certainly have it coming from others who will and should be offended by it, and perhaps expecting they should "just forgive" so freely is taking advantage and just as manipulative??

Thirdly, Steve states,

" If you have power and threaten to use it against me and I don't care, your power is no longer real power."

Ok, what about the case of those spending eternity in Hell , even their apathetic attutude does not invalidate the REAL power of God! In terms of relation to others, many of those in power also don't care, and any amount of apathy you can muster won't make a difference to them one bit. It only serves to feed one's own pride, serving as though a way to strike back with a stiff upper lip without any effectual cause at all.

Yes, There is a shift in Theology in Reformed Circles, and this is one in which you should all be aware. It's very reactionary….and not revolutionary. If Sarcasm is the hallmark of our Gospel campaign, then it's sin that attracts those who find solice in such whinery. Love without reason is not love at all, and it is a real shame what takes place here. What is supposed to be cutting edge in an attempt to strenghthen believers in their faith, only serves to make those who follow this Neo Grace Movement empowered….and for all the wrong reasons.

Brian January 24th, 2008

Hey Brad, was it really an apple???

Brian January 24th, 2008

Dorsey,
There there now, Thanks for finally explaining yourself. Was that so bad?? Even though they were not accurately portrayed, Hopefully, you will find a way out of this Neo Grace movement by the true grace of God somehow. But just remember, it may not just be your infuriation with me that's causing you to be so angry……read my above post, and much it is the reason for why you hate what I say so much. I wasn't even thinking about that John 15 passage, but perhaps you are on to something?? If Jesus returned today, I doubt very highly he be very welcome on this blog board. But since sin is no longer an issue in the Neo Grace Movement, you won't have to worry about that happening. NOW YOU THINK ABOUT THAT : ))

Mark January 24th, 2008

For those keeping score at home, all three of Brian's quotes are from one paragraph of Steve Brown's book, A Scandalous freedom, page 165 at the top of the page. I'd encourage all to read and make a determination for yourself if that portion of the book means what Brian infers.

I'm just trying to keep up with all of this. Seems we've left "Homosexuals and the Church" long ago.

greg from canada January 24th, 2008

Thanks Mark. I was curious where that was from. I just got the book and am looking forward to reading it.

Erik January 24th, 2008

Yeah that's true. This thing's off topic again. Here are some options…

1. Talk about homosexuals and the Church.

2. Start a thread on our Forums about all this.

3. Take a deep breath and go enjoy the day.

Daniel January 24th, 2008

can we just shut this one down and call it a draw?

Mark January 24th, 2008

Second.

dorsey January 24th, 2008

Sorry, I meant to make note in my last remark that I'm done with this, uh, topic, too.

Motion carried.

Erik January 24th, 2008

Cool with me.

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