ken September 13th, 2007

Great Response Steve!
And Yes! My faith was enhanced
Thanks For Calling Me your Friend Steve.
Im Proud to Call you My Friend.
I really Feel Kinda Dumb Now, I was just kinda worried about Making a brother or Neighbor Stumble.
Anyway, I like your Messages Bout Grace
I like you Steve.
I pray that God Blesses you and Yours Greatly
Your Pretty Cool, for an Old white Guy!

Jim Lee September 14th, 2007

Steve, If you have anybody who doesn't want their three free sins, please send them to me. I am already way behind, having used up my allotment a long time ago! I also would appreciate any free smaller offenses which they could send. I welcome all free mistakes, foibles, indiscretions, weak moments, boo-boos, etc.

Stupid Chicken September 15th, 2007

I have an important theological question.

If I applauded Steve's blogpost, does that mean I only have 2 more free sins left?

DezSpence September 16th, 2007

Steve - U ROCK!!!

You are one of my favorite Christian Heroes.
I admire you, respect you, like you and love you.

May God continue to bless you, your family, your ministry
and ALL that you do for His Kingdom.

Love and Blessings from Weston Florida

Christov September 16th, 2007

I wasn't going to comment on this, but I changed my mind.

When I first saw the "3 Free Sins" button or banner or whatever on the previous iteration of this site, I thought it was kind of incomprehensible, but not because I was offended or anything like that. It was incomprehensible because it was clearly comedic, but lacked reference to any sort of amusing categorization of sin or sins, nor was it presented like a three-column corporate malefits buffet - "choose one from each column…"

I can't imagine anyone getting exercised over this, any more than I can imagaine anyone getting exercised over, say, a Hohenzollern restoration. Who could object to a Hohenzollern? Who could object to a little theologically based, if somewhat initially incomprehensible, comedy?

Morgan September 17th, 2007

Steve
I have givin so manyof my friends your 3 free sins link,you may have to cut the offer down to two free sins. Keep up the good work.

Marc September 18th, 2007

Steve,
Grace and Peace to you Sir,
I believe that God has been and is pleased to use you and the whole Key Life Team to point believers to The One who can lighten their loads. What A Savior! My family and I are looking forward to attending The Great American Medicine Show in New Bern. Have a great week.

Robert N. Landrum September 18th, 2007

Professor Brown, I am so thankful for you that you have the guts to stand up and tell the truth about us, sin, and Jesus. I don't see how you still have a job! (Laughing.) There is a great need for this in our day. Keep up the good work as I know you will.

Casey September 19th, 2007

I was actually thinking about you, Steve, on my way to work this morning. About how you say the craziest things all the time and about how you are constantly catching heat. I'm so glad you are still speaking the truth though.

I never read one of these without saying, "I love Steve Brown".

Corey Shelton September 25th, 2007

Dear Old, Wise, and Funny White Guy, I appreciate your blunt honesty and humilty. I listen to your program on the radio in Atlanta(970 am WNIV) and many times I have pulled over while driving to write down some of the"nuggets of wisdom" that you share with your audience. It really blessed my heart to hear you say "I wrote a book called Stupid things I taught and believed." But Later had to change to name because your publisher thought it wouldn't be the best title. To hear that a pastor and professor could have taught and believed things that weren't necessarily correct gave this "Young Black Guy-youth pastor" much hope. I often try to teach with truth and integrity and encourage righteous living. But in doing so, "I have sat in the seat of the scornful." Thanks again for encouraging many to understand grace in the manner that God had ordained. I think I got it: Teach righteousness without being self-righteous. Keep on Brother Steve…

Sean from Michigan September 28th, 2007

Will I be required to register the sins? I'd like to keep them private.

Erik September 28th, 2007

Everything done in secret will be brought into the light. But don't sweat it, we'll all be so worried about who's looking at our mess, we won't have time to to look at yours.

Chemical Erik September 29th, 2007

Steve - If you're reading all these comments, you certainly going to get self righteous about your great wit. So if your reading all these comments, you're clear self-centered and self-righteous about you great wisdom and humility.

Vern the Voice October 10th, 2007

It's good to hear the "Unlimited free sins" I thought that was the point you were making, but it was good to know for sure. I don't think you can push the envelope this way and escape being controversial, but it's a good thing to just come out and remind people from time to time that you really have been half-joking.

Free Sins for Christians (What!?) Prescribed by a Dentist of Grace « In Thy Light October 13th, 2007

[…] Three Free Sins! […]

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

If only sin was truly free.

To the unrepentant, sin costs a soul an eternity in Hell.

To the repentant, sin cost the life of the Son of God.

I suppose anti-nomianism is one thing, Steve, but do you really believe that mocking God's holiness is something becoming of a Christian, much less someone who claims to be a minister of the Gospel (although, I've yet to hear one word about the Gospel from you)?

Erik October 30th, 2007

Is this the MikeMcK from the forums? What happened? I remember you being a bit more mellow?

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

I'm a pretty laid back guy. In fact, about the only thing I take seriously is the Gospel.

However, it absolutely infuriates me to see this guy mocking God's holiness the way he does.

I love Steve. I really do, but I don't believe that there's any excuse for this.

I mean, does he really not understand that God hates sin? Does he not understand that God's wrath abides on those who continue to sin? Does he not know what Jesus Christ paid for sin?

How did we go from th Bible telling us in the book of Romans "We know that where sin abounds, grace abounds even more, but does that mean that we can be free to sin just because we know God's grace is going to pick up the check? Heaven forbid!" (loosely paraphrased) to "Hey, go ahead and sin. God's cool with it. He's a pretty hip guy"?

The emergent church is a doctrinal trainwreck and this guy appears to be the engineer.

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

And, by the way, I notice that this "Christian" includes a link to Playboy on his website.

I wonder if he cares about the people who's lives and families have been destroyed by pornography. I wonder how he can be so callous to the weaker brothers and sisters who are going to see that link and stumble because of it.

Oh, well. I guess that's what happens when you know that you're free to sin.

Erik October 30th, 2007

Steve isn't emergent, and he's not encouraging people to sin. Did you click the link?

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

Well, what on Earth do you call it?

There's no difference between the dangerous doctrines he's promoting and what men like Brian McClaren teach.

Erik October 30th, 2007

But did you click the link?

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

No. I did not go to the Playboy website.

Erik October 30th, 2007

Then you're saying you clicked the link.

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

Alright. I clicked on the link. It's not Playboy magazine.

However, my other objections still stand.

The "Gospel According to Oprah" that Steve Brown and others in the Emergent church are preaching is still Unbiblical, still damaging, and people are still going to go to Hell because these people are withholding the Gospel from them.

Mark October 30th, 2007

What is the Gospel According to Oprah? I do not understand.

Erik October 30th, 2007

Mike,

You have misunderstood Steve's very orthodox message because of his unorthodox methods.

Let's use what just happened with the Playboy.com link as an illustration. You came to the site with a preconceived notion of who Steve is and what he preaches. So, when you saw the link to Playboy.com, you didn't even stop to think, and jumped straight to accusing Steve of propagating pornography.

It wouldn't make sense for Steve to have a link to Playboy.com, but you believed he would because you think you know who Steve is when you don't.

It's the same thing with him giving 3 free sins. Stop and think about it. Let's talk about it if you have questions, but don't jump to conclusions that make no sense because of the simple fact that you don't have ears to hear when you've stopped listening.

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

I don't have a pre-conceived idea.

I was one of the guy's biggest supporters for a long time.

I got all of the tapes, sent money, etc.

When I posted on BaptistBoard.com, I actually had a link to keylife.org as a part of my signature. So I think I have a pretty good understanding of what he teaches.

You're right. He fooled me with the Playboy thing. I clicked on it and found out that it wasn't Playboy.

So let's examine the "three free sins" thing the same way. At what point does "Hey, go out and sin" become "if you're living in unrepentant sin, you're in danger of facing God's wrath on judgement day"?

I'm more than wiling to give you an opportunity to explain but, as somebody who's been listening to his teaching for years now, I don't see it.

If he has an orthodox message, when was the last time he pleaded with sinners to repent, rather than telling them "God's not mad at you"? The Bible says that God is mad at them!

Erik October 30th, 2007

Mike,

See…many people think they know what Christianity is, but they don't. For real communication to take place, some assumptions and stereotypes are going to have to be challenged to provide an entry point to real communication.

You go talking to most people like you have in these comments, and they will shut you off. They will do the same thing you did with that Playboy.com link. They will assume they have you figured and write you off. You'll never get a chance to tell them the truth that both you and Steve are passionate about.

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

Mark, when I say "Gospel according to Oprah", I mean this liberal, antinomian message that you can do what ever you want to and not have to worry about the consequences because God's so loving that He'll just turn a blind eye to sin and say "Boys will be boys".

It's what drives the emergents and it's really nothing less than a kind of universalism.

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

I'm not talking about an assumption or a stereotype. I'm talking about what he says and what he does.

Tell me, when was the last time he told somebody they're going to Hell if they don't repent and get right with God?

When was the last time that Steve explained to someone that their sin has made them enemies of God?

When was the last time he told someone that Jesus Christ, by His atonement on the cross, is the only available means of salvation?

Or is he more likely to tell them, "Hey, God's your buddy. He understands that everybody makes mistakes. He won't hold you accountable for your sin"?

Erik October 30th, 2007

He doesn't tell unbelievers that God's not mad at them.

He tells Christians that God's not mad at them…that they should stop obsessing on their sin, that sin isn't the point. Sin was dealt with on the cross. God spent all his anger on Jesus, there's none left for the rest of his children.

He does tell unbelievers that if they go to God and accept him on his terms, he won't be mad at them either.

Did you read this article that we're commenting on?

Also, Steve has never said that Christians escape the consequences of their sin. But punishment and wrath are different than consequences.

The point of the 3 free sins thing is to get the Christian's focus off their sin and onto their loving Father. Focus on sin and you get more sin. Focus on God's love and you become more loving and holy. That's the way it works. Holiness does not precede grace. Grace precedes holiness.

Steve is preaching the only message that will bring more holiness. He doesn't say sin doesn't cost, but if you're a Christian, you don't pay for your sins.

Now unbelievers, if they don't want free sins, they'll have to pay for theirs.

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

When was the last time he told somebody they're going to Hell if they don't repent and get right with God?

When was the last time that Steve explained to someone that their sin has made them enemies of God?

When was the last time he told someone that Jesus Christ, by His atonement on the cross, is the only available means of salvation?

Or is he more likely to tell them, "Hey, God's your buddy. He understands that everybody makes mistakes. He won't hold you accountable for your sin"?

Mark October 30th, 2007

I have listened to Steve for at least eight years, and I have never heard him say anything about God being my buddy, or that God won't hold me accountable for my sin. Because of Jesus, my sin will not send me to hell. Jesus has covered it. So I guess in that regard, I won't be held eternally accountable for my sin because Jesus has already taken care of it.

That doesn't mean that I don't have to deal with the consequences of my sin every day of my life. God doesn't remove the earthly consequences like speeding tickets for driving too fast; it just means that God won't smite me every time I fall short.

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

I've listened to him for about fifteen years and I hear him say it constantly.

Mark October 30th, 2007

Do you mean the whole "God's not angry at you" thing?

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

That's one thing, yes.

Daniel November 5th, 2007

I think Steve argues in a few of his books that if someone is truly saved they will have the desire to better themselves, though they may never do it…only God can do it in us. Since we can't do anything on our own, there is no sense in getting hung up on our own sin….that basically becomes another form of self-righteousness. The "3 free sins" is a bit to get people to think about the gospel…your sins are "free" b/c they have been paid for by Jesus' blood. That doesn't diminish God's sacrifice, it makes it that much sweeter. Sure it is an unorthordox approach, but it is true just the same…I don't think it is emergent at all…it is more true than we want to admit b/c it isn't packaged in the veil of theology or dogma…

MikeMcK November 5th, 2007

Daniel, it's not BIblical at all. The Bible tells us to flee from sin. It tells us that if we continue to live in a sinful lifestyle, that we're not born again.

This guy is actually making light of sin and encouraging people to sin.

How on Earth does "go and sin three times and don't worry about it" get somebody "focused on the Gospel"?

greg from canada November 5th, 2007

Very well said Daniel. I must say that personally the 3 free sins has really made me reflect on God's love. And most times that I sin instead of getting angry or frustrated with myself I will think on God's love and Jesus's sacrifice for me.

greg from canada November 5th, 2007

Mike, do you actually read anything on this web site or actually listen to a thing that Steve says??? Its obvious that you dont or you would have got the point by now!!

Steve isnt telling you to go out and sin. You are going to sin regardless, well most people anyway, we arent as perfect as you it seems. The idea is to focus on God when you sin. And through the reflection on him you will sin less over time as you develop a relationship.

Zeke November 5th, 2007

When was the last time he told somebody they're going to Hell if they don't repent and get right with God?

Mike, something tells me that if it was in fact 5 minutes ago that wouldn't change your opinion one little bit.

Christov November 5th, 2007

I remember in my late teens and middle twenties (I became a believer and at the age of nine, but some unpleasant early life experiences bore their predictable fruit later on) living in open rebellion against God, doing all I could to harm his cause and encourage his people to join in rebelling against him. At that time I tried to find my identity in my sin. Didn't really work out all that well, turns out I am who God says I am, not what/who I or you say I am.

Still later, as a seminary student in my thirties, I became disgusted with what passed for Christianity in those narrow halls and old brick buildings. Experiencing a West Coast to Southern Bible Belt culture shock, and not having totally dealt with issues arising out of that upbringing I mentioned above, I chose to become sexually involved with women I met in the public place I worked (no, I didn't sin sexually with them in public). Anyway, the odd thing about that was that I no longer tried to find my identity in my sin, agreed with God that it was sin, and God extricated me from it. Odd also that none of the people at seminary confronted me about this sin that should have been obvious to anyone paying attention. What they did confront me about was the fact that the women I dated were not of my race, my Mohawk haircut, consistently exceeding the posted speed limits, smoking cigarettes, cigars, and a pipe, and my total unwillingness to attend a Promise Keepers rally.

My point in all this is that, a. regardless of my attitude toward my sin, I have a history of predictably and regularly sinning; b. I've been God's, if Calvin's interpretation of what the Bible appears to be saying about predestination is right, even before I came to faith at the age of nine; c. God managed to sort me out, and is still at work in me, vis-a-vis my sin and living the Christian life on earth; d. has managed to do so without much intervention from those in proximity to me who claim to be his people.

greg's right, you're gonna sin, and if you're honest, you probably like sinning a lot of the time you're sinning, are an accomplished sinner, and on your best days maybe you wish it were otherwise (or is that just me?). Unless you subscribe to the narrow, and in my opinion erroneous, view of sin as "a willful transgression of a known law of God" - which clearly then contraindicates study of scripture. Or maybe all your conscious intent is good, but the scripture uses terminology like "missing the mark," that is, aiming at one thing, probably a "good" thing, and failing to attain it - getting an unintended bad outcome. Sometimes my actions result in stupid but natural consequences I never intended - makes me angry at God, and I as a fool reproach him with "Well, you never have unintended consequences - everything you do works out perfectly."

But whatever sin you commit, or make a pet of, or make a boogyman out of, Christ reaped, if reaped's a word, the consequences thereof during his embodied life and death here on earth. We, on the other hand, reap the consequences of his nature as evidenced by his resurrection. I think Paul says somewhere in Romans 8 stuff that's relevant to the discussion. No possible merit of salvific effect to you accrues through your becoming exercised over my sin or your own - as far as I am able to understand in light of scripture.

The old guy's being concise, using a subcultural shorthand, funny, and he's doing that to make a point. If that 'resonates with you' and you get the point, great. If you don't, you don't. Big deal.

I'm going to hit "submit comment," look at this rambling diatribe, and wish I'd been concise.

MikeMcK November 6th, 2007

[quote]Mike, something tells me that if it was in fact 5 minutes ago that wouldn't change your opinion one little bit.[/quote]

I'd settle for "ever".

MikeMcK November 6th, 2007

[quote]Mike, do you actually read anything on this web site or actually listen to a thing that Steve says? Its obvious that you dont or you would have got the point by now!![/quote]

Then explain all of the money I donated and all of the tapes and magazines I got.

[quote]Steve isnt telling you to go out and sin. You are going to sin regardless, well most people anyway, we arent as perfect as you it seems.[/quote]

I'm not perfect and you really don't need to be childish.

I don't expect anyone to be perfect. I'm certainly not.

[quote]The idea is to focus on God when you sin. And through the reflection on him you will sin less over time as you develop a relationship.[/quote]

And you read all of that into "three free sins", huh?

MikeMcK November 6th, 2007

[quote]Unless you subscribe to the narrow, and in my opinion erroneous, view of sin as "a willful transgression of a known law of God" - which clearly then contraindicates study of scripture. [/quote]

Actually, that's precisely what the Bible says sin is: a willful transgression of God's laws.

[quote]The old guy's being concise, using a subcultural shorthand, funny, and he's doing that to make a point. If that 'resonates with you' and you get the point, great. If you don't, you don't. Big deal. [/quote]

I agree. It's a very big deal.

greg from canada November 6th, 2007

Quote "And you read all of that into "three free sins", huh?"

Yes, I read that out of the literature tha accompanies 3 free sins. Mike you are thick as a post. If you have actually ready read what the pages say you would understand. Most people go beyond the title when you read a book.

Quote "Then explain all of the money I donated and all of the tapes and magazines I got."

Did you actually read them and listen to them? Becasue it seems you are surprised on what Steve preaches. That just really surprises me.

Quote "I'm not perfect and you really don't need to be childish."

The same goes to you brother.

Christov November 6th, 2007

Hey Mike,

Your definition of sin leaves out all other life evidences of the fallenness of creation which are also manifestations of the presence of evil in the world and also evil/sin in our own lives, and is therefore inadequate. I'm guessing you've become Arminian or at least Weslyan in your theology.

Yes, that willfull transgression thing is one of several biblical concepts of sin. You're free to ignore the others, but as you do so, it appears to result in your getting really het-up over what others say, think, and do. True, sometimes I actually don't care about others driving around the speedbumps as they exceed the posted limit on the highway to hell. That's just a manifestation of my own sin. But to plead with someone to "accept Christ," and pray a sinner's prayer is just not biblical.

I think it is biblical to exigete (sp?) the scriptures and to teach sound doctrine while doing so, to encourage every hearer to turn Godward, to encourage every believer to barge in before the throne of God with every distraction, worry, issue, every bit of personal foulness, to ask and receive help from the God of all creation and our heavenly father. And yes, to ask forgiveness. I think I'm responsible for speaking the truth of scripture to God's people and those who may be God's people, but I'm not bothered about trying to manipulate some outcome by appealing to anyone's emotions, backing them into a logical corner, or just mistaking my will for God's will and trying to impose that upon them.

But if you really are God's, and I'm guessing you are, he'll convince you of whatever you need convincing of. I'll never get a job as a Hollywood writer strike-breaker if I keep writing sentences like that.

I've really got to practice concise.

Best,

Chris

MikeMcK November 6th, 2007

[quote]Your definition of sin…[/quote]

It isn't "my definition". It's what the Bible teaches.

[quote]it appears to result in your getting really het-up over what others say, think, and do.[/quote]

Call me crazy, but when representatives of KeyLife email me and call me an asshole for saying what the Bible says, yes, I do get a little heated up.

[quote] But to plead with someone to "accept Christ," and pray a sinner's prayer is just not biblical.[/quote]

Well, at least you got that right.

MikeMcK November 6th, 2007

[quote]Mike you are thick as a post.[/quote]

Better to be a fool in your eyes than a fool in God's eyes.

[quote]Did you actually read them and listen to them? Becasue it seems you are surprised on what Steve preaches. That just really surprises me.[/quote]

I read the magazines, I listened to the tapes, I signed the checks.

I know exactly what he says (I can't really call it preaching, because there's no preaching involved…at least not in the Biblical sense). I'm not surprised, I'm just disappointed.

Christov November 6th, 2007

Mike,

I've got to get ready for work in a minute, but I want to ask what's happened?

Evidently, for a more or less long time, you were o.k. with the Key Life/Steve Brown slant on living the Christian life on earth. That's obviously changed.

What precipitated the change?

Chris

MikeMcK November 6th, 2007

My problem isn't so much with his ideas about "living the Christian life on Earth", as it is with his ideas about the lost.

Imagine being a lost person tuning in and hearing him make light of sin, or telling them "God's not mad at you", or speaking about God in such a frivolous way, as he often does.

What are they supposed to think?

The emergent church is deceiving a lot of people and making it really difficult for those of us who do believe in the preaching of the Gospel to preach the Gospel.

But, in answer to your question, specifically, two things happened.

The first is that, about five or six years ago, I realized that the Gospel I was preaching wasn't Biblical. It wasn't heretical, but it wasn't Biblical, either.

It was almost identical to the things Steve Brown says.

Seriously, go over to BaptistBoard sometimes and look through their archives at some of the posts I made four or five years ago. Change the name to Stve Brown and I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't tell the difference.

The second thing that happened is that I began to learn more and more about the various new abberant movements within the church (ie. "emergent", "purpose driven", "seeker sensitive", etc) and, as I realized that this was what I'd been doing, it made me really dive into God's word to straighten out some loose ends in my own doctrine and practice.

Mark November 6th, 2007

Just to clarify: would you lump Steve and Key Life in with the "emergent" movement?

MikeMcK November 6th, 2007

Yes, I would. I see very little difference between Steve Brown and the emergents.

Erik November 6th, 2007

Mike wrote…

Call me crazy, but when representatives of KeyLife email me and call me an asshole for saying what the Bible says, yes, I do get a little heated up.

That's not what I said. What I said was…

But in the spirit of this post, I will say this… I love you as a member of the body of Christ…even if that member is the ass.

But you know what I said don't you Mike? You would rather misquote me deliberately to muddy the waters. That, by the way, is a form of lying, and I'm sure you know that lying is a sin.

But you can be sure that God forgives you for it…because grace is big enough even for self-righteous manipulators. You sir have used one of your free sins.

Also, I'll say it again, Steve does not teach, nor has he ever taught that God isn't mad at unbelievers. In fact, right after he says, "If you're a believer, God's not mad at you," he usually follows with, "Now, if you're an unbeliever, He's ticked at you and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. But if you go to Him and become His child, He won't be mad at you either."

I doubt that my stating that again will do you any good since you have decided to hear what you want and not even address the facts.

G-Rock November 6th, 2007

i think deep under Mikemck's hard surface, there's a little bit of joel osteen in there…

mike, let your inner osteen come out…

George November 7th, 2007

MikeMcK

Do we ever stop sinning? Do we ever come to the point where we are so holy that sin is not an issue in our lives? Where we don't need Christ and His salvation? NEVER!

I see lot's of people who "pretend" to not sin. They put forth a "pretty front." Kinda like what Jesus said in Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean."

MikeMcK, that's the point! It is easy to pretend. To look good on the outside and be full of filth and sin on the inside. I see Christians who beat themselves up over the sin in their lives and struggle to be free. They are bound to the law and trying to be perfect. Trying to earn Gods love. Fearing Gods wrath. When all God is offering them is his love. Honestly, the impression I get is your approach only heaps guilt on the forgiven.

Frankly, that's what turns non-Christians off to God. The anger, all the talk of being holy but being a sinner at the same time. Non-Christians look at this "holiness" and see it for what it is. Men, making themselves out to be God.

I believe Steve is speaking "primarily" to Christians and pointing out that we are ALL sinners in need of Jesus' continual forgiveness. BUT, we have been forgiven. We have to learn how to accept that forgiveness and not be bound by guilt and trying to "be good."

I'm not sure you get that. (And, that's sad to me.)

From your posts, I seem to pick up a lot of anger and fear. I don't sense that you feel a lot of God's love and forgiveness in your own life. That perhaps you have to "control yourself in the area of sin." We all do. I hope one day you will truly experience God's love, forgiveness, and freedom.

That's the point. We are all sinners. We never get past it. Paul said (you remember the apostle Paul don't you Mike?) in Romans 7 "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" If Paul felt that way, how could we not feel that way.

But wait! Paul goes on to say "Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! "

Honestly I don't remember any portion of scripture where Jesus rails on someone about God's anger with their sin.

MikeMcK, I may be wrong. So, Please point out from Scripture where Jesus heaps God's wrath and anger on a sinner. Where he threatens them with hell fire if they don't repent.

If Jesus didn't condemn, then neither should we.

MikeMcK November 7th, 2007

[quote]Honestly, the impression I get is your approach only heaps guilt on the forgiven.[/quote]

2 John 1 says that if they won't turn from their sin, they're not forgiven.

[quote]Frankly, that's what turns non-Christians off to God.[/quote]

What can I say? The cross is an offense to those who perish.

I'd rather preach the Gospel and turn off a non-Christian, than not preach the Gospel and attract the lost.

[quote]The anger, all the talk of being holy but being a sinner at the same time. Non-Christians look at this "holiness" and see it for what it is. Men, making themselves out to be God.[/quote]

If somebody is making themself out to be God (and, yes, I know that you and Eric are going to falsely accuse me of doing this), then they're going to have to account to God for that.

I can't help that, though. That isn't a good enough excuse for me to stop proclaiming the Gospel.

[quote]I believe Steve is speaking "primarily" to Christians and pointing out that we are ALL sinners in need of Jesus' continual forgiveness. BUT, we have been forgiven. We have to learn how to accept that forgiveness and not be bound by guilt and trying to "be good."[/quote]

I see. So then, since we've been forgiven, it doesn't really matter whether or not we sin? Let me guess: Where grace abounds, sin abounds even more?

I thought it was the other way around.

[quote]I'm not sure you get that. (And, that's sad to me.)[/quote]

And I find it sad that you would misrepresent what I've said, while defending those who choose to promote sin.

[quote]From your posts, I seem to pick up a lot of anger and fear.[/quote]

No anger, no fear.

[quote]I don't sense that you feel a lot of God's love and forgiveness in your own life.[/quote]

Yes, I feel God's love and forgiveness.

[quote]That perhaps you have to "control yourself in the area of sin." We all do. I hope one day you will truly experience God's love, forgiveness, and freedom.[/quote]

And I hope that some day you will truly decide to stop serving sin.

[quote]That's the point. We are all sinners. We never get past it. Paul said (you remember the apostle Paul don't you Mike?) in Romans 7 "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" If Paul felt that way, how could we not feel that way.[/quote]

When did I say that we don't sin?

[quote]Honestly I don't remember any portion of scripture where Jesus rails on someone about God's anger with their sin.[/quote]

Seriously?

You're telling me that you really don't know that Jesus is going to judge sinners?

[quote]MikeMcK, I may be wrong. So, Please point out from Scripture where Jesus heaps God's wrath and anger on a sinner. Where he threatens them with hell fire if they don't repent.[/quote]

2 Peter 2:3-6 would be a good place to start.

[quote]If Jesus didn't condemn, then neither should we.[/quote]

And when did I ever say anything about condemning anyone?

George November 7th, 2007

MikeMcK

Mike I agree with you on so many points. But, you seem to present a view that the only way to be right with God is to not sin. So Mike. Do you ever sin? What do you do about it when you do? Or are you sinless?

[quote]2 John 1 says that if they won't turn from their sin, they're not forgiven.[quote]

Agreed! And I believe a true Christian will want to please God and not sin against Him. But, on occasion, we do. What then? Are we not saved?

Are we to say that Paul is not a Christian because he says "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

[quote]The cross is an offense to those who perish.[quote]

I didn't say it was the cross that was the problem. I find non-Christians willing to hear the Gospel of Jesus. They don't want to hear condemning Christians blaming them for their unforgiven state. Yes, they do need to be aware of their sin and they need to be aware of God's grace in providing redemption and forgiveness (Hmmmm, haven't heard you say much about forgiveness.).

[quote]I'd rather preach the Gospel [quote]
What is your idea of preaching the Gospel?

[quote]MikeMcK, I may be wrong. So, Please point out from Scripture where Jesus heaps God's wrath and anger on a sinner. Where he threatens them with hell fire if they don't repent.

[quote]2 Peter 2:3-6 would be a good place to start.[/quote] yes that is a GREAT place to start since that talks about false teachers who preach a false gospel. But it does not answer my question.

This is not Jesus dealing with individuals in the Gospels. The question is "So, Please point out from Scripture where Jesus heaps God's wrath and anger on a sinner."

[quote]You're telling me that you really don't know that Jesus is going to judge sinners?[quote]

Yes Jesus will judge the sinners who die and come before him. So unless you are dealing with dead people and their judgment, that is sidestepping the question again.

I[quote]f somebody is making themself out to be God (and, yes, I know that you and Eric are going to falsely accuse me of doing this), then they're going to have to account to God for that.[quote]

[quote]And I hope that some day you will truly decide to stop serving sin.[quote]

[quote]And when did I ever say anything about condemning anyone?[quote]

Aren't you condemning and judging me with those statements?

MikeMcK November 7th, 2007

[quote]But, you seem to present a view that the only way to be right with God is to not sin.[/quote]

Not true in the least.

I've been very clear that the only way to get right with God is to repent and put your faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross.

[quote]So Mike. Do you ever sin? What do you do about it when you do? Or are you sinless?[/quote]

See 1 John 1:8-10

[quote]Agreed! And I believe a true Christian will want to please God and not sin against Him. But, on occasion, we do. What then? Are we not saved?[/quote]

See Romans 6:1-23

[quote]I didn't say it was the cross that was the problem. I find non-Christians willing to hear the Gospel of Jesus. They don't want to hear condemning Christians blaming them for their unforgiven state. Yes, they do need to be aware of their sin and they need to be aware of God's grace in providing redemption and forgiveness (Hmmmm, haven't heard you say much about forgiveness.).[/quote]

I agree. That's the crux of the Gospel and something I'm always very clear about when I preach and when I share the Gospel one on one.

[quote]What is your idea of preaching the Gospel?[/quote]

Proclaiming what the Bible says about man's sinfulness before God and God's grace shown to man by Jesus' atonement.

[quote]2 Peter 2:3-6 would be a good place to start.[/quote] yes that is a GREAT place to start since that talks about false teachers who preach a false gospel. But it does not answer my question.[/quote]

In other words, you want a passage where Jesus judges sinners, you just don't want that particular passage?

[quote]This is not Jesus dealing with individuals in the Gospels. [/quote]

And you believe that Jesus is limited only to the Gospels?

Just out of curiousity, do you believe in the analogy of scripture?

[quote]The question is "So, Please point out from Scripture where Jesus heaps God's wrath and anger on a sinner."[/quote]

I did.

[quote]Aren't you condemning and judging me with those statements?[/quote]

No more than several of the statements you've made toward me or the things a representative of Key Life has made toward me, including that I'm not saved.

Erik November 7th, 2007

Mike,

First, when I referenced your salvation in a comment, I was making a joke. I'll quote…

See, now we're having church. We're praying for each other. This is good. Next step, maybe you'll even get saved Mike!

You can be sure I was joking by referencing my email to you and noting that I made a point of saying that I expected we would be in heaven together and that I am looking forward to it. I'll quote again…

And by the way, I was serious when I said I love you as a member of the body of Christ. I think you're mean and blind to how messed up you are and the damage you're doing to the body of Christ by being that way. I don't like that, but I fully expect to spend eternity with you and look forward to it.

I meant that Mike. Again, you seem to be selective when listening to or reading anything from me or Steve. Or you're misrepresenting yourself.

That being said, I was reading the Bible and praying last night and this morning, and I feel that God wants me to ask you to forgive me for being just like you.

I'm serious. Will you please forgive me?

George November 7th, 2007

Mike,

[quote]But, you seem to present a view that the only way to be right with God is to not sin.

Not true in the least. [/quote]

Good, I'm glad we agree. So the question is how do we live our lives before God.

[quote]Proclaiming what the Bible says about man's sinfulness before God and God's grace shown to man by Jesus' atonement.[quote]

As far as non-Christians are concerned you and Steve are saying the same thing.

As for Christians… Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Would you agree with that?

[quote]See Romans 6:1-23[quote] - Agreed. But we still do sin, do we not?

[quote]This is not Jesus dealing with individuals in the Gospels.

And you believe that Jesus is limited only to the Gospels?[/quote]

Again, this seems to be a way of sidestepping the question. No, Jesus is not limited by anything. But I can only speak of what the Bible tells me. If you look at Jesus' life, he was loving, forgiving and accepting. He did not condone sin, nor did he condemn any individual for being a sinner (except the religious who practiced the "form" but did not truly worship God).

Steve is not saying to take sin lightly. I have heard him say on many occasions "God hates sin!"

Rather, for the Christian, "…don't beat yourself up over sin. By "pretending to be sinless" we put ourselves under a huge load of guilt and pressure. No one can live a perfect life.

So what do we do when we sin? See 1 John 1:8-10. We confess it, thank God for the love and forgiveness and move on.

Once we understand that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," We are more motivated to love and walk with the Lord.

If people have the attitude they can go out and sin as they please, then I would say they are not Christians to begin with.

So I think you Steve are in agreement. It's just a matter of semantics.

"…there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Stop pretending to be perfect and just relax in the love and forgiveness that God has offered to us.

Amen

PS If you have felt condemned or judged by me, please point out what post made you feel that way and I will be glad to ask your forgiveness. All I've wanted to do is understand where you're coming from and stimulate you to think! and communicate clearly. We are all of the body of Christ and are to stimulate one another to love and good deeds.

MikeMcK November 7th, 2007

[quote]As far as non-Christians are concerned you and Steve are saying the same thing.[/quote]

I certainly hope not. I hope I'm presenting the Gospel to the lost, instead of just telling them stories and clever sayings.

[quote]As for Christians… Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Would you agree with that?[/quote]

That's what the Bible says.

[quote] Agreed. But we still do sin, do we not?[/quote]

See 1 John 1:8-10.

[quote]Steve is not saying to take sin lightly. I have heard him say on many occasions "God hates sin!" [/quote]

"…three free sins", "God's not mad at you", etc.

[quote]So I think you Steve are in agreement. It's just a matter of semantics.[/quote]

No, we're saying two entirely different things.

Erik November 7th, 2007

Yes Mike, but will you forgive me or ignore me?

greg from canada November 7th, 2007

Is God mad at me Mike?

MikeMcK November 7th, 2007

I don't know, Greg. Are you born again?

greg from canada November 7th, 2007

Yes, I am.

Erik November 7th, 2007

Romans 12:18 - "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

Zach November 7th, 2007

Mike.

This chain of responses has really discouraged me. As tough as Steve comes across I bet it has to be discouraging him too.

I grew up never doubting the existence of God or that Jesus came to save sinners. I won "Christian of the Year" three years in a row at my christian high school and I've even been attendeding seminary for the past 3 years, but it wasn't until recently when I started listening to Steve's teaching that I heard the Gospel, repented and believed.

Maybe God is using Steve's unorthodox communication style to reach the "many who will come to me and say, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'" (Matt. 7:22) with His Gospel.

Through Steve's clear presentation of the Gospel, God definitely called me to repentance and faith.

MikeMcK November 7th, 2007

Then why would you think that God is angry at you?

greg from canada November 7th, 2007

I dont. Thanks to Steve's teaching. Key life and this web site has done a lot to help me grow in my christian walk and grow closer to Christ. Before I thought as a christian if I followed the rules of christianity I would get to heaven. But by following the rules I always fall short and thought that God would be mad at me. Steve's ministry helped me to realize that Christ really did for me. The real key is the relationship with God. And as you build that realtionship you become a better person and a better christian. And I thank Steve, Erik and Key Life for their ministry.

mikeM November 7th, 2007

John 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. (speaking to his followers) and further John 15:17 These things I command you, that you love one another. We can disagree about an awful lot as believers, but our goal must be to play our part to answer Jesus' prayer in John 17 of unity.
otherwise we are all feeding the beast. whether we're right or wrong

Erik November 7th, 2007

I totally agree. That's why I'm repenting of being mean.

Let it go MikeMcK. Please forgive me. There's still good in you, I can feel it.

Zeke November 7th, 2007

I don't know, Erik. I think maybe MikeMcK has given in to the dork side of the force.

Sorry, Mike… couldn't resist.

MikeMcK November 7th, 2007

No problem.

So far, I've been called an ass by a representative of Key Life, a self righteous hypocrite, been told that I'm living in some sort of unrepentant lifestyle, and had all sorts of false accusations made.

What's one more log on the fire.

Jesus said, "blessed are you when men revile you for My sake" so I guess I ought to be grateful.

Erik November 7th, 2007

Matthew 18:21-22 - "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

Erik November 7th, 2007

MikeMcK,

I would like to add that being reviled for Jesus' sake and being reviled for being an ass are two different things.

Please don't take that the wrong way. I'm not calling you an ass by saying that. I've repented of that kind of behavior (and I'm still begging for your forgiveness). I'm just stating a fact that you may want to consider when feeling persecuted.

George November 8th, 2007

greg from canada

Me too. I spent 23 years with a very large Christian para-church group and quickly learned that I was not perfect, nor could i live up to the "spiritual giants." But, I didn't have to.

Steve Brown has been a breath of fresh air and has encouraged me to seek the Lord and trust Him for my salvation, not my good works.

George November 8th, 2007

Hey Everybody!

MikeMcK is feeling down and persecuted. So EVERYONE send Mike a message and tell him you love him as a brother in the Lord and you're praying for him.

God Bless you Mike! Love ya Bro! I will pray for you today that you will feel God's love in all this.

MikeMcK November 8th, 2007

[quote]MikeMcK is feeling down and persecuted.[/quote]

Don't flatter yourself.

A couple of children calling me names and sending me rude emails isn't nearly enough to get me down.

In order for me to feel "down and persecuted", I'd actually have to care what you thought of me.

Erik November 8th, 2007

MikeMcK,

I'm not joking around here (and I don't think George is either). Since you mentioned emails again, why won't you respond to mine? I'll post what I sent you this morning in case you missed it.

Mike,

Erik

In Matthew 18, Jesus tells the story of a servant who was forgiven a great debt who subsequently refused to have mercy on his fellow servants. I'll quote the end of the story.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

I think it's plain to see from that passage that people who receive mercy should be merciful. If you won't be merciful, there's a good chance that 1) You don't understand the magnitude of what or the extent to which you've been forgiven, or 2) You haven't really received forgiveness.

Either way, I pray you find it in your heart to stop ignoring me and forgive me.

I forgive you.

I really am holding nothing against you man, and hope that we can put all this behind us and hold hands and tell each other stories about Jesus.

MikeMcK November 8th, 2007

[quote]I forgive you.[/quote]

Well, that's mighty white of you, since I'm not the one who did anything.

Erik November 8th, 2007

Here are your own words regarding a post on this site…

Yeah, I regret saying that. It was unfair of me to say that. To be honest, I said it more out of frustration at attacks by his followers than anything to do with him.

My apologies to Steve.

I know that was directed at Steve, but you are here on the site I manage making argumentative comments (prolifically I might add) like the one for which you apologized. But that's not the point…

I have forgiven you.

Will you forgive me?

George November 8th, 2007

Mike,

Regardless I prayed for you and I hope you prayed for me.

mikeM November 8th, 2007

Mighty white of you? Please define. If that means what I think it means, I'm really bothered.

mikeM November 8th, 2007

Erik, how far is too far? heathly debate is one thing, even emotionally charged debate with good intentions, but mikeMcK, that you would even consider using a phrase blatenly racially offensive, you should be ashamed of yourself. Whatever point you we're trying to make could easily been made without such a tasteless comment. And, knowing Erik, not nessesary that i do, the only logical reason I can find that he would even allow that comment to post is to show your character.

mikeM November 8th, 2007

I'm out

Erik November 8th, 2007

You're out?

MikeMcK November 8th, 2007

[quote]Erik, how far is too far? heathly debate is one thing, even emotionally charged debate with good intentions, but mikeMcK, that you would even consider using a phrase blatenly racially offensive, you should be ashamed of yourself. [/quote]

From "A Dictionary of Catch Phrases: American and British, from the Sixteenth Century to the Present Day,":

[quote]"Orig. Southern US, it soon became gen. U.S., and has been heard in UK since the 1930s, often with an understood implication of its origin. Of the U.S. usage, Prof. John W. Clark, 1977, has noted that it was, at first, used seriously—'like a white man, not like a Negro. Now used everywhere, by everyone to anyone, but always jestingly (and sometimes sarcastically), and with full consciousness that it is a provincial expression—and NOT racist'. . . . [/quote]

Please not the last two lines: "…with full consciousness that it is a provincial expression - and NOT racist".

MikeMcK November 8th, 2007

By the way, MikeM, I notice that you didn't bother to trot out your selective outrage when Eric and others here were calling me all sorts of names and making every false accusation under the sun at me.

Erik November 8th, 2007

MikeMcK, will you please forgive me?

Mathew 6:14-15

14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

mikeM November 8th, 2007

Na, I just had to go to lunch with my pastor, at which time I promptly confessed that I had begun bloging. Although it sorrowed his heart, knowing that I had been engaging in unedifying arguments dreadfully harmful to the furthering of Christ's Kingdom, he in his Godly wisdom, compassion, and understanding, absolved me of my sin (not by his power, of course) and expressed to me that the greatest heresy (our personally definitions of what is heresy being really what we all get all worked up over) facing the church all over the world in this age is not a dogmatic or theological heresy. But a deeper more fundamental, and I might add, frightening one, of our unwillingness to overlook our differences and unite under the banner of Christ's love for us (because after all, we are not "of Baptist", or "of Presbyterian", or "of Pentacostal", or "of Catholic" but are all of Christ) so that the world will know that We are of Him, and He is of the Father. With the direction we're going, the world may never know. So my prayer; May we all throw aside our differences, for the unity of the Body of Christ, put aside our pride, and truly love one another as He has also loved us. Amen

Chon_Lee November 8th, 2007

…but have you forgiven Erik?

Daniel November 8th, 2007

different mike

Lee Schneidermann December 31st, 2007

When you tell people that Christ's death, burial, & resurrection "covers" sin you're talking about Jews right?
I think that those of us who've been granted the faith to believe today are "righteous " in the sight of God. That goes alot further than "covering up", our transgressions. It puts us on the same footing as Jesus in the sight of God. We are called to a completely different glory(the Body of Christ) than the "Bride" aren't we????

Lee

jesus in the eyes of God.

George McFly January 29th, 2008

3 for free?
Oh my oh me!
One for you and one for me
And one for the cat sitting in the treeeeeee!

Daniel J. February 18th, 2008

Oh how infuriated the Pharisees were at Jesus and His teachings! Thank God for America and the 1st Amendment. Otherwise some may be warming up the electric chair for Steve.

Steve’s teachings will usher many into a relationship with Christ. Not by frightening the hell out of them, but by listening and loving them as Christ loves us.

Charles March 3rd, 2008

I have a problem. I got three sins, but I wasn't happy with them. The buzz gave me a huge headache. The fight left me bruised and with need for expensive dental work. And this month's cable bill is a little above budget.

Is there anyway I can exchange them for…say, get heavily involved with a political party precinct, get 'plugged in' to a very aggressive accountability program or basically worship my church leadership?

If not, I will work real hard to earn another 3 sins and come back at redemption time….or call in on my cell phone, whichever I can get to first.

animoniuos March 3rd, 2008

….Seriously…. if I only get 3 free sins, I better make 'em count….

George McFly March 3rd, 2008

I sinned on the couch. I sinned in the car. I sinned in the bathroom. I sinned at the bar. I sinned with Lorraine. I sinned at the Clock Tower. I sinned against Biff. And then I sinned again.

What is the topic again?

Ray March 12th, 2008

What ken said.