Paul October 18th, 2007

Steve, who are your theological enemies, since you mentioned you have theological enemies? It seems the theological world is full of ecumenical, mushy, scared-to-offend, intellectual pushovers these days. Nobody really takes a good, hard stand against theological error anymore, do they? Jesus did, and he wasn't afraid of offending the ones in error. The Apostles weren't afraid to offend, call a spade a spade, tell it like it is without fear of the repercussions. Call me a fundamentalist if you will, but I don't think it is wrong to proclaim what is right, know it is right, and defend the right from attack, from compromise and error. What about the God of the Old Testament, and the Jesus we see in the New Testament book of Revelation? Yes, to those who are saved, the elect, He is our loving and merciful Father, but to the wicked and the rest left on the earth He comes with vengeance and wrath, and even the saints under the altar in the book of Revelation cry out to God, asking Him when He will take vengeance. As for the lesbian atheist you mentioned above, nothing she says is worth listening to. Friendship with the world is enmity with God, and she is certainly a child of this world; and yes, I know you aren't personal friends with her, but if I were to laugh at a crude joke from a wicked person I become aligned with that wicked person and become a friend of that person because of agreement. Enough for now, I suppose. Too much preaching against sin and not enough "grace-filled" preaching.

Casey October 18th, 2007

I really needed this today. To be reminded that so much of what I read and see is a facade hiding insecurity and hurt; and that we're all a lot more alike than I would ever, ever want to admit.

blessings.

Christov October 19th, 2007

Sometimes the crude jokes are just funny, and the wicked people are just trying to get along and get through whatever's going on in their day just like I am, and if I laugh at the funny jokes, I become aligned with humor which is a good part of God's good creation. Sure, it's all been smashed up a bit by the fall, but it was pretty well made and continues to function, more or less, according to the designer's original intent. Friendship with the world differs from friendship with God's fallen image bearers. More importantly, being real in one's sitz im leben, as a Christian, radically trumps the contrived extra-biblical notion of being a "good witness." If you're Christ's, you're a witness. Bear witness to the reality of your life on earth in Christ, not what some theologue harangues you into pretending or striving that it ought to be.

$.02

Christov October 20th, 2007

Hey Steve, sorry to butt-in again, but now like Paul I am wondering who are your theological enemies?

Jeff October 20th, 2007

All this brings a song to mind that I sang at church, when I still went to church…
"Oh, the sufferin' soul, crying out for love in a world that seldom cares…
See the hungry heart, longing to be filled with much more than our prayers.
And a young girl sells herself on 7th Avenue.
Can you hear her crying out for help, My God what will we do?
Don't tell them Jesus loves them, until you're ready to love them to.
Until your heart breaks from the sorrow, and the pain they're going through.
WIth a life full of compassion, may we do what we must do…
But DON'T TELL THEM JESUS LOVES THEM, UNTIL YOU'RE READY TO LOVE THEM TO.
Paul, I hope the God of the Old Testament will visit you in your sleep tonight, and maybe you will find yourself saying with Isaiah, "Woe to me! I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unlean lips!" (Isaiah 6:5)

Paul October 22nd, 2007

Dear Jeff,

I am a man of unclean lips and yes, I do live among a people of unclean lips, but I am not satisfied to leave it that way, either myself or them. People often say, "God loves you just as you are" and then you hear some people say in reply, "Yes, but he cares to much to leave you that way". As a well informed reformed Christian and Presbyterian I can say, God doesn't love everyone, because He would not send anyone He loves to hell. (Jesus prayed not for the world, but those who belong to God, as is noted in John chp. 17). Those who He loves, not because of their personal merit but because of His election, He saved fully. I know that we, as Christians, are called to love our enemies, which would imply that we should love everyone, and we should, with the kind of love that pulls them out of the fire, the kind of love that cares enough to not leave them as they are, with a kind of love that offers the correction as offered in the Bible. We must love like this because we don't have the mind of God; we don't know who the elect are and we don't know who may be saved. Plus, loving others with a genuine care for them and not a mushy fake love is good for the Christian witness and the spread of the Kingdom of God on earth. Am I wrong anywhere in my statements? I don't think so; I think this is all in accord with the Scriptures.

Mark October 22nd, 2007

"…but if I were to laugh at a crude joke from a wicked person I become aligned with that wicked person and become a friend of that person because of agreement."

So is any agreement with a wicked person considered alignment with them, or just agreement about a crude joke?

Erik October 22nd, 2007

When talking to students preparing to be pastors, Steve tells them that if you're going to tell a questionable joke from the pulpit, make sure it's really funny. Because when the congregation laughs they're morally culpable and you're off the hook.

Paul K October 23rd, 2007

Paul,
I agree that we should love others "with the kind of love that pulls them out of the fire". My question to you is how does one accomplish that? Through a no strings attached genuine invitational love? Or a line drawing, finger-pointing, pressure inducing accusation? Invitation and the promise of love, or accusation and the pressure of fear? What are the means that God uses? How does He draw you?

It is true that God uses the law to make us aware of sin, yet even the Gentiles "show the work of the law written on their hearts." In my experience people need little help in feeling their guilt. What help they need is provided by God's spirit who "convicts the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." People "get" guilt what they don't get is unconditional love. This world is starving for it. We are all starving for it. I am starving for it. You are starving for it.

Jesus invited ALL who were weary and heavy laden. He invited them with promise, not fear. He appealed to our deep desire to know, hope against hope, that we really mattered. That our sin was not deeper than our value. That we were loved. "For God so loved the world.." Indeed God is sovereign and saves "not because of their personal merit but because of His election", but His motive was love for us. It's in the bible…read it. Of course no-one could ever "merit" or otherwise earn love, for such is the nature of love. But that fact does not make worthless the object of love, rather because it is loved it proves that it is indeed lovable and of great worth in the eyes of it's lover. Even despite our inability to ever measure up.

I may be reading you wrong but it seems to me that in your desire to make much of God you are making too little of people…people who despite their sin He valued enough to die for. How can you make much of Christ while devaluing what He deemed worth giving His life for?

He loves us and love is what he offered in Jesus. Could we ever doubt that? In my experience fear has never been a very good motivator for effecting real change in people. It might prompt empty obedience, but it could never lead a person to the free devotion of true love. Only His first love can do that.

"As a well informed reformed Christian and Presbyterian I can say, God doesn't love everyone, because He would not send anyone He loves to hell."

Are you sure about that? I'm not as sure as you seem to be. I think of Jesus who upon entering Jerusalem cried out with a loud voice to those who rejected Him, "How I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" And again in Genesis we read "And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." The thing that stands out to me here is that in both of these instances God is pronouncing judgment AND sorrow, even regret. He seems genuinely grieved at the loss of these people. My question is this. Who grieves the loss of that which they do not love?

Paul,I think you are zealous but hurting. God has made us ministers of grace, not law. Law kills but grace gives life. If you are under law, and I sense you are somewhat, I know you are dying inside. Trying so hard, feeling so angry, frightened, and failed. I just want to say to you Paul that He really loves you. You.

Erik October 23rd, 2007

Paul K,

Brilliant!!! I bow before you. I'm not worthy to be in your virtual presence. Great comment.

Man…I wish I wrote that. Can't wait to see the response.

George October 24th, 2007

Paul K and Paul,

"God is pronouncing judgment AND sorrow, even regret. He seems genuinely grieved at the loss of these people. My question is this. Who grieves the loss of that which they do not love?"

I agree. Have you ever thought of Hell as the greatest compliment God can pay to man? That he loves us so much, He will allow us to live apart from Him throughout all eternity if we choose. He loves us so much, He will let us go.

Love that is forced is no love at all.

He sent His son to die for us. He offers us all His love and acceptance into his family. But, He loves us enough not to force us.

I think his second greatest gift He gives us is the gift of "choice." We can choose.

Ephesians 1:18 says "I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,.."

Paul K October 24th, 2007

George,

"Have you ever thought of Hell as the greatest compliment God can pay to man? That he loves us so much, He will allow us to live apart from Him throughout all eternity if we choose. He loves us so much, He will let us go."

Isn't that a provocative thought? Hhmm. Seems pretty consistent with my understanding of scripture. One thing I am sure of is that God's judgment, even His anger and wrath, never compromise or contradict His love and mercy. It's not an (either-or) type thing. Something about the promise that with God "there is no variation or shadow of turning." (James 1:17) We do not serve a schizophrenic God. So we can say with confidence that His judgments are an expression of His love for all that He does is consistent with His nature.

"Love that is forced is no love at all."

That is an excellent point and if it's true, and you know that it is, then God could not force His love upon us, or force us to love in return, without violating the nature of love and thus violating His own nature as the God who is "Love". That being said God cannot but send some to hell, not despite His love, but because of His love. For to fail to do so would violate His own nature.

Paul K October 24th, 2007

Erik,

Thanks brother, I'll stick that in my ego bank to draw on the next time I get clobbered!

Paul K October 24th, 2007

Help! I'm trying to open my first blog but I'm not sure I am doing this right.

Paul K October 24th, 2007

Never mind!! I guess it worked. Cool. If you click on the up-link you won't find much as I just opened the thing. But, boy, you just wait! I have many prodigiously profuse profundities to propagate! And a few thoughts to share as well!

Paul October 25th, 2007

Wow, am I writing to a bunch of Arminians here? Let me say it again, GOD would not send ANYONE HE loves to hell! Those who He loves are those who He saved by sacrificing His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. I am NOT under law, I am under grace, but the law is always pointing me to Christ, and Christ is always pointing me to the law; and that is absolutely biblical. By knowing the law, I know I always fall short of it. We have no choice in the matter of salvation. That is awesome love. For God to chose some out of mankind and save them, and those He saved had nothing to do with it. And somebody in one of the previous posts said, probably the most obsurd thing I've ever heard, that God loves everyone so much that He ALLOWS them to chose hell. Do you have any scriptural basis for that comment? And, Paul K. Tear filled converts are the ones who are true converts, who are truly greatful for the sacrifice of Jesus. They are the ones who, after looking at themselves in the mirror of God's law, see how truly dispicable they are, they see that they have a disease called sin and that there is one remedy for this disease and that is Jesus Christ. If a man had cancer and he knew very well he was to die, and then a good doctor came with a cure and healed him that dying man who now lives will be greatful forever. People are happy in their sins. They don't know they are dying. They are entertained. Yes, maybe all their sinful desires and searching for love in peoples beds show that they are searching for what you called "unconditional love", but if you were a heathen before you became a Christian, as I was, you know very well that you were happy in your sins. I know I was. I had it all; freedom from guilt (no one was pointing out my sin disease), different women when I wanted them, I drank like a fish, played drums in a semi-famous metal band, had money and friends. UNTIL the fear of God came upon me. YES, I said the FEAR of God came upon me. The Proveb says that the FEAR of God is the beginning of wisdom. When I saw that I was heading for hell because of the sins I committed I was scared, then I heard of the love of Jesus Christ, that He died for me to COMPLETELY pay for my sins, and I was in love with Him instantly and began to become a new man. I was like a man who was happy, then realized I had deadly cancer, then a great physician gave me a cure.

Erik October 25th, 2007

Which semi-famous metal band did you drum for?

Mark October 25th, 2007

I hate tulips.

Christov October 25th, 2007

Paul said, "Tear filled converts are the ones who are true converts, who are truly greatful for the sacrifice of Jesus. They are the ones who, after looking at themselves in the mirror of God's law, see how truly dispicable they are, they see that they have a disease called sin and that there is one remedy for this disease and that is Jesus Christ."

Dude, what if you're just not emotional? Reckon there's always some human observable external manifestation of spiritual transformation? Personally, I don't think it is always so. While there is certainly a "sorrow that leads to repentence," the scripture does not state that repentance is always born of sorrow.

Proverbs 8:13 defines the fear of the Lord thus spoken by the female personification of wisdom who is apparently more than human, but less than God:
"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverted mouth, I hate."
As an aside, I think the Old Testament personification of wisdom is something like the Creation-Box's operating system. For the Christian, The apostle Paul, I think, somewhere says that Christ is the wisdom of God. An upgrade!

Anyway, guys, I think you're fooling yourselves if you think you can wrap your minds around even all of the revealed mind of God in the canonical scriptures of Old and New Testaments, determining what God will or won't, can or can't do generally and in specific cases (like the case operator in C++?). God is free, and he is not entirely contained in the theologies of Calvinists, Arminians, TV theotainers, or me.

I'll butt out now. Pax

Paul K October 26th, 2007

Paul,

Whoo-wee are we having fun now or what? I want to say I am really enjoying dialogging with you (and everyone else) and truly appreciate your willingness to respond. I'm glad to hear of your conversion and wouldn't doubt the validity of that experience for a minute. But I want to say first that, like Christov noted, not everyone's conversion experience is identical. Mine, like yours, was with great tears, but truly it had less to do with conviction of deep sin than it did an overwhelming awareness of my own hopelessness and powerlessness over a life that was spinning badly out of control. I was overcome by the loving-kindness, promise, and presence of God. I've never been the same.

"Wow, am I writing to a bunch of Arminians here?"

Hey now, I thought profanity wasn't permitted on these type of sites. Really, I mean, what if I was? It just so happens I am not. I was, in fact, for a long time. But I see that as no cause for shame. We will share eternity with many whose theological positions might now make us cringe. Dare I say there may even be some Catholics there? Maybe a democrat or two? Who knows.

"And somebody in one of the previous posts said, probably the most obsurd thing I've ever heard, that God loves everyone so much that He ALLOWS them to chose hell. Do you have any scriptural basis for that comment?"

I can see why you might think that affirming our free choice would suggest an Armenian view, but it is in fact consistent with reformed theology. Man's free choice is consistent with God's sovereignty in this way: the reprobate choose to reject God's love. God does not make them do it, rather He allows the them the freedom to do so. Their choice is a free choice. In the case of those who have been regenerated from among the world, salvation is this: they freely choose to accept God's love. Now here's the thing that is difficult to understand; though nobody would ever choose God in an unregenerate state, by regeneration God does not make them choose his love. Rather God, in regeneration, places a new heart and a new nature within people, with the result being that they now freely choose His love. At the core of the heart God literally transforms the nature so that rather than freely choosing to reject Him we now freely choose to accept Him. In both cases people are totally free to choose what they most want; it's just in the redeemed God has given them a new "want-er." Now this is deep stuff and those who rely excessively on logic are really going to get their brains in a bind here. In fact if this doctrine doesn't make you scratch your head your probably not thinking about it correctly. It's one of the bibles great antimonies.

"Let me say it again, GOD would not send ANYONE HE loves to hell!"

Again, I am not so sure about that. It would seem to me that it's not that God is withholding His love for the fallen:rather they are rejecting it. It's like He's saying, "Come on and let me love you. Let me hold you and heal you. I won't even count your treachery against me:simply come." And the unregenerate reply, "Crucify!!" He has not failed to love and welcome them, rather they fail to welcome and receive His love.

This position too is consistent with reformed doctrine:it just happens to be one of those highly contentious, unresolved, issues within the faith. But I think it should be made clear that neither you or I would somehow be less reformed or biblical for disagreeing on this point. Good, biblically grounded, and sincere folks have disagreed on this point for years. For an excellent and easy to understand treatment of these issues, both free choice and predestination, as well as God's love for those on whom His judgment falls, see R.C. Sproul's great little book; Essential Truths of the Christian Faith, pg. 165-6.

Finally, I want to say that it is because of my tremendous faith in God's sovereignty that I am free to simply love people as they are. Some in the Reformed camp seem to be saying that if God is
sovereign we need only speak to others sin and let God sort them out. In the same bane I am simply speaking of His invitational love and letting God sort them out. In the end are not those who come to Him those whom He calls? It's not as if by speaking of His grace and mercy too much we're going to accidentally draw some to God that he has not already effectually called. That just seems silly to me.

Jeff October 26th, 2007

I'm not much, so I'll let someone much wiser do my talking for me…
"Though Christ no longer visibly moves among us, we minister to Him in the ragamuffins within reach. Each encounter with a brother or sister is a mysterious encounter with Jesus Himself. 'Love one another as I have loved you.' To Peter on the beach along the sea of Tiberias He said, 'If you love me, Simon, tend my sheep.' Quite simply, our deep gratitude to Jesus Christ is manifested…in our deep and delicate respect for one another.
The ministry of evangelization is an extraordinary opportunity of showing gratitude to Jesus by passing on His gospel of grace to others. However, the 'coversion by concussion' method with one sledgehammer blow of the Bible after another betrays a basic disrespect for the dignity of the other and is utterly alien to the gospel imperative to bear witness. To evangelize a person is to say to him or her: 'you, too, are loved by God in the Lord Jesus.' And not only to say it, but to really think it and relate it to the man or woman so they can sense it. This is what it means to announce the Good News. But that becomes possible only by offering the person your friendship; a friendship that is real, unselfish, without condescension, full of confidence, and profound esteem."
Excerpt taken from "The Ragamuffin Gospel" by Brennan Manning

Paul October 26th, 2007

Jeff, Brennan Manning is a Roman Catholic, an ex-priest, and a preacher of false doctrine.

Paul K. Much of what you say is good, biblical. I get the idea, though, that you think we should just preach God's love and grace and let the chips fall where they may, and, though things become a mess, don't try to sort them out, or point out faults, because, afterall, God will save who He will anyway, huh?

Listen, I understand where you are coming from, you too Jeff, and I was once in that spot before I actually READ THE BIBLE and READ IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN. You must have a good mixture and an even kiel in the whole of the Scriptures. Love/hate, happiness/anger, hurting/healing. I know that what I say will not convince some of you, and neither will Scripture. But, I am going to put some Scripture up here and let you think about it.

Jesus calls for repentance from sin.

Luke 13:2-5 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Jesus and all heaven has joy when one repents, not when one "fills a love void in their heart." The love comes after the saving.

Luke 15:7 "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

What does Jesus say in the verses to follow? Is it, "And that grace and unconditional love should be preached in his name among all nations"??

Luke 24:45-47, "Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Hmm, the Apsotles preached a lot like John the Baptist and Jesus. I wonder why modern American, mushy love, afraid-to-offend, Christians don't follow this example?

Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."

If the following scenario were to happen in your church I'm sure your ragamuffin love would comfort Simon the Scorcerer and tell him that he's just a little confused for thinking that he can pay for the Holy Spirit, and then he would be assured that he already has the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:21-23, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

So much for cultural relevance and trying to be just like the world to draw the world in.

James 4:4, "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Notice below that compassion will make a difference to some, and others we must bring to salvation by FEAR. Under it all lies the hating of even the garment spotted by the flesh. So, you notice a sinner living in sin, you hate the sin (garment spotted by the flesh), you have compassion and show him or her the fear of God and pull them out of fire.

Jude 1:22-23, "And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

I have many, many, many, many more verses proving that Jesus did not preach a ragamuffin gospel, a soft, wattered down, no strings attached, friendship gospel. He always preached repentance to the proud, as well as the humble. He preached the law to those who were self righteous and He showed grace to those who were broken like the woman caught in adultery, the women who washed His feet, the theif on the cross. But to false teachers, He railed them. To the self righteous, He tore them apart. And He always preached repentance and turning. Turn or burn as they say. If you met me you'd see that I am a humble, soft spoken man. I am not a loud, proud Bible smacker. You don't have to be to preache the truth and know the truth. It's just that sooooo much of what I hear coming out of modern Christian's mouths is absolutely waterred down softy crap or no gospel at all.

I appologize for any spelling errors. I am in a hurry.

Paul

By the way, Paul K., I am also from Omaha.

Mark October 26th, 2007

Be careful, Paul. You may end up sitting next to a Roman Catholic or an ex-priest at the marriage feast of the lamb when all is said and done..or perhaps even an Arminian.

*gasp*

Jeff October 26th, 2007

Like I said, I'm not much. I grew up in a church that was ultra holiness, ultra conservative, and ultra legalistic. They condemned Catholics as heretics, Baptists as preachers of "false doctrine", because of the "once saved, always saved" theology, and any other denomination that held to a different belief system, as hell bound. They preached fear, and made God appear as someone a sinner would never feel he could come to for forgiveness. After living under such a system for most of my life, I see the damage it has done to me, and those around me. Perhaps this is why so many leave the faith, or never even come to believe. We readily condemn our own brothers and sisters, casting stones at people hurting and seaching. Why would anyone come to believe in a God whose people are so full of strife and anger? We can't even show love and respect to our own, so why would an unbeliever make any effort to find a God whose people show little love, and don't even follow Christ's commands to love? "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you love one another." This is why I left the church I knew as a child and young adult. A loveless god fosters a loveless people.
As for Brennan Manning, I will quote the late Rich Mullins and make the quote my own: "I have attended church regularly since I was less than a week old. I've listened to sermons about virtue, sermons agains vice. I have heard about money, time management, tithing, abstinence, and generosity. I've listened to thousands of sermons…but I could count on one hand the number that were a simple proclamation of the gospel of Christ. That proclamation is the message I heard that day."(from Brennan.)
He may not be right in all the he believes. He may have half of it wrong. But tell me, what denomination has it perfect? My denomination had most of it's theology right, but they had missed the Love. Paul said, "If I have the gift of prophecy, and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have the faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."(1 Corinth 13:2) Pretty strong words. We can have everything right, and think we know all the mysteries of God, and be correct in our "knowledge," but have not love, and we've missed the whole point of the gospel.
Michael Card, Max Lucado, Eugene Peterson, have all good things to say about Brennan. I guess they are all hell-bound though, as I probably am for trying to work through a loveless religion and find true Christianity. As a teen, and young adult, I read the Bible every, EVERY single day. I never missed a church service. So, I'm not someone who has no knowledge of what is right or wrong, or of God's holy law. But the "law" of God hangs on two commands. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-39.) So, without love, you can't even begin to obey the Law.
I am thankful that God has shown me more mercy than I find among his people. I'm grateful that God saved a sister of mine that most had given up as lost. If someone hadn't "loved" my sister, though, she would've never believed. It is only when someone came to her and shared true love and concern that a change, a CONVERSION, took place. She had been preached at all her life about God, his judgements, hell, and the coming horror of the tribulation. But this only hardened her heart. But God sent someone, (and I thank God for this person), that shared the true gospel..GOOD NEWS…God loves you! God has made a way for you!! God sees your sin, but is anxious and ready to forgive!! When she finally saw the LOVE of God, and not just his wrath, her heart melted before him. Maybe this is what I am looking for myself. I've known fear. I've known judgement. I've known religion, and I now I want to know the God John wrote about when he said, "There is no fear in love. But Perfect Love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18) And further…"If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother he is a liar." (1 John 4:20)
Why is it so hard for us to see that God loved US while we were his enemies? Yet, we can't love those who are OUR enemies? Who are we, that we can't love a sinner, when a HOLY GOD loved sinners so much he died to save them? Who among us has enough love in their hearts to DIE for our enemy today? Die?? We don't even want to befriend a lost soul. Send 'em on to hell! Let 'em get what they deserve! No wonder so many find it hard to believe that God is Love.
On a final note, John did give us a way to see if someone is preaching a false gospel. Here is his test…"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus, is not from God. (1 John 4:2-3) Simple test. So maybe there will be Catholics in Heaven. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Maybe there will be Baptists in Heaven. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Maybe there will be Pentecostals, Presbyterians, and Lutherans. Maybe even those who've condemned them will be there. After all, the Father loved the Elder son as much as he loved the Prodigal.
On that note, I will let those far wiser than I argue about who is right and who is wrong. As for me, I humbly say along with Job, "Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know." (Job 42:3)

Jeff October 26th, 2007

Just wanted to share a story I believe God helped me write recently when I needed some hope…and I will graciously bow out. It is a twist on the story of the good Samaritan. Maybe someone else lives under the same feeling of condemnation and hopelessness, and needs the God who sees every sparrow fall, and says, "The bruised reed I will not break, and a smoldering wick I will not snuff out…"(Matthew 12:20)

THE LEAST OF THE BRETHREN

Jesus said, "When you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me."

Walking along this road called life, one day I came upon a man lying in the ditch. He had been beaten. His clothes were torn and hanging, covered with blood. He didn't even have the strength to pull himself up out of the muck he had fallen in. He just lay there, ragged and bleeding. Walking over to the man, I asked, "Man, why are you lying there in the ditch? Get up! There is work to be done for God. Don't be lazy!"
"But," he stammered with barely enough strength to speak, "I was attacked and beaten by robbers. I am dying. Two men have already walked by without even saying anything to me. You are the first to speak. Please, help me good sir."
"Well, what were you doing traveling on this road? It is where sinners, thieves and robbers live and hide. You should have stayed on the straight and narrow road! Fool! God has sent me by to punish you for your stupid behavior! For the Bible says to 'abstain from the very appearance of evil,' and here you are traveling on the road for sinners!" With those words I kicked him fiercely in his side.
"But sir….."
"Shut up! God is angry with you. Why were you not prepared for the attack? The Bible says to ‘put on the whole armor of God', and here you are barely clothed! You are obviously lacking in your spiritual disciplines, and unprepared! You fool!" I placed another kick into his side, making sure it hurt worse than the first. He groaned and cried out in pain.
"But…sir…please…."
"And why are you still lying here? Are you so lazy? There is work to do! Get up out of that ditch! You stink! You are a horrible example, and a failure!" I proceeded to kick him repeatedly until he began to scream in pain. But he deserved this. He needed to be made aware of his mistakes. He needed to pay for his sin.
"Please…have mercy…I beg you." he managed to say between his sobs.
"Jesus suffered such a horrible death for you! And look how you repay him!! You vile sinner! You damnable, vile man!" More kicks. More cries. "You lazy, rebellious fool! Confess your sin!! Tell me what you have done!!"
The man proceeded to tell me as best he could between sobs, his weakness; His sins that led to his state of lying in a stench filled ditch, covered with mud. I was incredulous!
"My God, man, do you realize what you have done? Do you realize that for these sins the Law says you should be stoned to death? God has surely sent me to carry out this judgment!" I picked up the largest stone I could find and beat the man senseless; all the while I screamed that he was getting what he deserved for his sins.
Finally, growing weary of carrying out what I thought was righteous indignation; I dropped the boulder, and sat down to catch my breath.
The dying man cried. He sobbed like a child. Suddenly I felt something like pity for the man, but I quickly pushed it aside. After all he was only getting what he deserved. I was simply carrying out God's judgment. But, suddenly with his dying breaths he gasped to me…
"Sir, everything you say is true, and I am a sinner…worthy…of:death.
I offer no defense, and I accept my punishment as what…I…deserve." He wept and sobbed bitterly. "But…sir…" he choked, "Doesn't the Bible also say 'to love your neighbor as…'?"
"Oh no you don't!!" I cut in, "I'm not going to coddle your sin! I hate your kind; your sin disgusts me!! You are not my neighbor! You are a vile sinner, worthy of death, getting all that you deserve!! Who are you anyway? I want to look into the face of the man that would sin and treat God with such disdain!!"
I jerked his head up by his hair, sticky with the blood from my stoning. I wiped the mud away so I could see him clearly. I looked into his face. I was stunned. Shocked. Speechless.
"When you have done it unto the least of these………."
Looking into the tear filled eyes of this dying man, I found out that day the least of the brethren who needed my compassion, my forgiveness, and my love the most…the man I had, instead, beaten and stoned without mercy, was me.

Paul K October 27th, 2007

Jeff,

Hey, I can really relate to your post, and your story. Truth is some of us need no help beating ourselves down. We get guilt. We get self-loathing. But love? Me? As I am? Real Love? You've got to be kidding. Just leaves me speechless.

Paul,

I have found that it is in the context of real relationship that I can best address a persons sin and brokenness. I believe in being honest with people, I just make sure it is in a way that both respects their freedom and dignity. I speak the truth in love. Sometimes what we do speaks so loud that others can't hear a word that we're saying.

Also I totally recognize the ultimate need for repentance. Only I don't see it as a call to clean up our act but as a radical shift in what we are trusting for life. Repentance is a gift that can be best understood, in my opinion, as illustrated by the story of the prodigal son or the pearl of great price. In both of these examples that Jesus gave we see people coming, not because of intense guilt and shame, but because of need and the promise of something greater. "I have come that they might have life, and life to the fullest." That is the promise. Repentance is realizing that what we have been trusting in cannot provide life, that we cannot provide for ourselves life, and then responding with hope and trust to the invitation of God, " Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend money for what is not bread, and your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and let your soul delight itself in abundance.
Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you�"The sure mercies of David."- Isaiah 55:1-3

Anyway, I think you are right that we are not going to change each other's mind, and thats cool. Your entitled to your opinion. I'm sure you've come by it honestly enough. So, with that, I shall bow out from here forth. Perhaps we can all argue on another post? In the meantime God bless you all.

Paul October 27th, 2007

I shall bow out as well. But remember, the Bible does say, "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." The Christianity of today portrays a "needy" god, a god who has done all that he can, and now it's up to us. This is a lie from hell. We can do nothing and nothing is left up to us, because in ourselves we will only and always chose evil. The Psalm says there are none who do good, none who seek after God. And we never would, if God didn't make the move to place grace and faith in our hearts. I have a lot of brothers and sisters. I love them dearly. They are all lost, without Jesus in their lives. Some of them have been very wicked, some of them have horrible habbits. I don't get in their face and tell them that they are horrible sinners and on their way to hell. I do, however, show them simply what the Bible says, and that they will be lost if they don't trust in Jesus Christ to save them from their sins. Paul says, "such WERE some of you". Meaning they have turned away from their sinful lives and to Jesus Christ to live in love and righteousness. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Paul K., you previously said that I was hurting. I am not hurting, I am healed. However, you said that you were feeling guilty enough and that you were searching for unconditional love. That is hurting. I've never truly met a saved Christian that said they had a "void" in their heart because they were searching for an unconditional love from God. I am absolutely greatful for the love of Jesus, and I love Him and He loves me, and it makes me cry of happiness to think of that.

Mark, you said I will be sitting with Roman Catholics in heaven and all sorts of other people. Keep on that road and you'll begin to believe that Christians will be sitting with Muslims, Hindus and others in heaven too, just like the United Methodists say. Revelation says that whoever loves and believes a lie will not enter heaven. The gate is straight and NARROW is the WAY, and there are FEW who find it. Until judgement day comes, may God bless you and enlighten your mind to the true meaning of the Scriptures and stop your ears from hearing false teachers.

Jeff, I'm sorry for you having a hurtful religious past. It's a good thing you didn't come to America with those radical Puritan Pilgrims.

I belive that we must love one another. That verse means that Christians should love one another so that the world will see our unity and believe our God. We should love our enemies enough to tell them the hard truths and get them on the right and saving path. That is love. Do you know how much love and concern it takes to go up to a stranger, give them a gospel tract and tell them about Jesus? Do any of you here on this blog do that? When is the last time you shared your faith with a sinner? When have you been the agent of change in a persons life by witnessing to them? Try it, if you haven't. Go and preach the gospel to all people. That is love. That is love. That is love. C.H. Spurgeon said If you aren't concerned about the salvation of others and actively doing something about it I fear for your own salvation. Maybe you don't agree with Spurgeon in all things, but he is right about this issue.