Tracy November 6th, 2008

Holy cow! I'm glad I made it through the show. For a while I thought I was just going to have to stop because it was so annoying, but incredibly you started talking sensibly at the exact middle of the show. A few random points…

I'm glad you came back to the abortion issue after seeming to blow it off at the beginning of the show. We're sacrificing our children at the altar of convenience…how sad is that?!? More power to Tony in his attempts to change some minds within the Democrat party on that issue. How can you oppose murder and then make an exception for the most innocent and vulnerable? Really, if someone (Obama) doesn't know when life begins, shouldn't they err on the side of caution and assume it begins at conception, instead of supporting open season on the defenseless? Isn't that a little like Russian roulette?

American politics seems to have degenerated into a power grab by the two major political parties. After two elections of choosing the lessor of two evils, I finally decided to vote for a write-in this time.

I appreciate your opening this post with the term "comrade". It seems very appropriate considering that Obama and Biden each had a more liberal voting record last year than the only self-proclaimed socialist in the US Senate.

Perhaps the scariest part is that the Democrat party will have the presidency, the House, and the Senate.

Maybe Barak's election will show the naysayers (like MIchelle Obama) that this country isn't as bad as they think and that people really can rise above their circumstances (even being a racial minority). And, hopefully the less cynical will see that they don't have to be feel disadvantaged because of their race and will strive to do their best.

Erik, I'm glad for the impact Whitehead seems to be having on you. The election is over, and we need to be sure we don't lose focus on doing what's right–not expecting the government to fix it all for us.

Erik November 7th, 2008

Sorry for annoying you Tracy. I knew I was risking that by starting the podcast with praising God for our new president. Thanks for listening beyond that.

Erik November 7th, 2008

Have you seen this? I think it's worth taking the time to watch. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Tony Heringer November 7th, 2008

Thanks guys. I enjoyed your post-election talk. Erik, I had the same thought about God favoring the oppressed. The fact that many who suffered through the civil rights movement are alive to see this day is a great blessing. One elderly lady proclaimed here in the Atlanta local news a sentiment of many from that generation by saying "The Holy Ghost is moving!" When your read of the injustices and the brutality of that time and prior, I'd agree.

I think Obama will inspire a whole generation of young African American men to step up. The state of African American families is sad — something like 30 percent are two-parent. So, here's a guy who seems to be a thoughtful, loving father and husband. I pray the first family will heal this community and strengthen African American families.

As for the abortion issue, I'd say Republicans have done more pandering than "speaking truth to power."

The video was quite interesting and a good picture of Obama – a progressive, Christian. I may not agree with him on a systematic theological level but I'd affirm his love for Christ. Like you all said, it is important to hold him to this statement of faith.

I'd be curious to hear Steve's thoughts on it. Would this fit into the message he gave at Perimeter last year called "Church R Us" (which he blogged a few times on too)? That message has been a challenge to me this year to live out an orthodoxy of love.

Thanks for the link Erik. I'll pass it on.

Tracy November 7th, 2008

Ok, I watched (or at least listened to) the video. I'd heard bits and pieces of it before. It was actually quite disturbing. He makes very pejorative references to scripture, and implies that a literal interpretation of the Bible is folly. Have you read his 2004 interview with Cathleen Falsani (link pasted at end)?

I'm curious to know what Tony means by this: As for the abortion issue, I'd say Republicans have done more pandering than "speaking truth to power." Pandering is what many politicians do to gain votes, and it's my understanding that "speaking truth to power" is what religious leaders and/or non-politicians are supposed to do to try to get politicians to do what is right. So, I don't have a clue what's intended by that statement. Maybe I'm misunderstanding "speaking truth to power".

http://www.suntimes.com/news/falsani/726619,obamafalsani040504.article

Mike November 10th, 2008

I have listened for years, I have been having a harder time lately. This show was very difficult for me to get through but I did so that I would hopefully hear a big "just kidding" at the end. I didn't get to hear that. I know I represent the other half of the country right now that isn't thrilled with this election outcome. One thing I have never been able to figure out is how is it that christians can vote for a party that stands so against the principles that I see in the bible. I have democrat christian friends and they always turn hostile when I ask and I never get a real answer. The only deffense I ever hear is they help poor people. Ok, that's one thing. What else? Isn't it the job of the church to help the poor anyway, not the government. I was wondering what other reasons there are for a christian to vote democrat that outway allowing humans to accually live long enough to take there first breath, or even to live long enough to naturally take there last. I don't care what party wins, or what tone of skin the person has. The economic stuff is very low on the priority list. I'm not a single issue voter but I have a list and they are prioritized.

I was wondering if you guys might know the answer that I have been looking for without the hostilily that I typically get when I ask. I have been meaning to ask you guys for a while but this episode finally pushed me to it.

Erik November 10th, 2008

Mike,

I hear you man. As someone who may or may not have voted for Obama, the question you ask is the one I struggled with the most as I weighed my options this year.

As I talked to Christian Obama supports pre-election, the answer I got the most was along the lines of, "We elected Republicans on this issue and they had their chance to make progress regarding abortion, but didn't. I don't believe the president really can or will do much on this issue (Republicans are already saying their future party line will be to push the abortion issue to the states). As a result, there are other issues that are important to me and Obama speaks to those."

As to how Obama or Campolo, who both self-identify as Christian and obviously Democrat, deal with abortion rights in their own party, it seems Tony is pro-life and working to make changes to the platform and Obama recognizes that we live in a pluralistic society and seeks to find common ground (not necessarily based on religious beliefs) in order to reduce the number of abortions.

Let's talk more about it. You should call in. The really important thing is that you keep listening. Love me. ; )

Tracy November 10th, 2008

I've come to the conclusion that the pro-abortion crowd is mostly about a couple of things. The primary is the desire to escape the consequence of their actions. And, the second is money (abortion is a business). Because our political system has become more about party power and less about what's right, each party is basically locked into supporting their base. Again, more power to people like Tony Campolo who want to do what's right despite their base.

I am sick of abortion being pegged as a religious issue. It's no more a religious issue than murder. Because a human embryo is human (well, duh) and alive, there's no scientific basis for a distinction. The distinction is simply one of convenience.

Erik, I'm not sure what more you expect a president to do about abortion besides what Bush did (and McCain said he would do): appoint Supreme Court justices that are pro-life. Theoretically, congress could pass a constitutional amendment to ban abortion, but congress is not the president (again, duh).

I don't even want to get started on states' rights issues and the utterly unconstitutional state (no pun intended) of the federal government.

Erik, one thing that might result in more callers is consistency. I never know from day to day whether there will be a podcast. Shortly after you went to two days a week, it got really inconsistent. At one point, you were good about warning before hand that there wouldn't be a podcast, but you seemed to get away from that.

I'm ready to move on to something besides politics, but I'm willing to play along for a while longer if that's what folks want.

Don't worry Erik, we still love you…but don't push it.

Mike November 11th, 2008

I'm still listening. I do think the best solution would be for the Federal Government to get out of it and leave it to the states. Isn't that the intention of having state and federal governments?
I know Bush blew it his second term but I don't see going in the direction of Obama as any sort of option, even Hillary would have been prefered slightly.

I also like to keep my beliefs separated, I am a Christian and I'm an American, I try to keep those two from getting confused with each other. Hopefully when they conflict the Christian comes out ahead of the American.

I have thought about calling many times, but I don't listen live and I don't have net access at work which is where I am when you record. One day though it would be cool.

Thivai November 11th, 2008

I came to this site looking for Watching Theology episodes (highly recommended!) to use in my film courses and ended up browsing some of the episodes/posts to get a better feel for the host (before I would link up to you for student archives). I have long been impressed by the intellectual depth and openness of the Christian film scholars like Joe and Melissa (and I'm sad that they are no longer producing these wonderful shows–although Seattle's Jeffrey Alexander is another great Christian film critic)

Steve-I'm impressed to come across another thoughtful, open Christian. Thank you for opening up the dialogue.

As for your respondents here:

Tracy: How can you take a moral stance against abortion while supporting an administration that supports the torture of prisoners; that locks up people without their being able to access lawyers or allow them to know what they are imprisoned for; and actively sabotages social systems designed to alleviate the disadvantaged populations in America (does our obligation to these people end once they are born)?

Mike: Don't kid yourself… you are not the half that lost. Not even close… you need to answer your own question first:

"One thing I have never been able to figure out is how is it that christians can vote for a party that stands so against the principles that I see in the bible."

Your friends are probably stunned that you miss the board in your eye while trying to excise the speck in theirs….

Tracy and Mike–please revisit your Bible. It is vitally important that you have a good grasp/knowledge of what it actually says.

Peace

Tracy November 11th, 2008

Thivai,

Did I say I supported the current administration? My first post in this thread clearly states that I voted for a write-in candidate. While that doesn't speak directly to my support (or lack thereof) for the current administration, I would hope that it would give one pause before pigeon-holing me.

If you are not allowed to be born, what difference does any other issue make? That said, your first issue is a thorny one–assuming you are talking about the detainees held in Guantanamo Bay. First, they were not arrested by law enforcement on American soil, so it's not clear that the traditional lawyer bit applies. Secondly, I don't know enough about the Geneva Convention to know whether they would be covered there since this isn't a traditional declared war on another nation. That said, they're still human beings and should be afforded reasonable treatment. From what I've heard regarding the issue the current administration classifies "water boarding" as interrogation despite the advice of some (perhaps even within the administration itself) that it crosses the line into torture. Is there anything you would disagree with so far on that issue? Perhaps you know more about the Geneva Convention's provisions on POWs and can enlighten me there–if that might be useful to the discussion.

On the second issue, I have no idea what you're talking about. What social systems have they sabotaged, and how? Also, I don't know who "our" is in the parenthetical comment, but I'll give a somewhat preemptive response: the government absolutely has obligations to the born (as well as the unborn). If we don't see fit to protect born people from murder, then perhaps we may as well continue to allow the murder of the unborn.

Finally, I resent your questioning my knowledge of the Bible, especially since you are doing it from presumption. I have stated two political opinions in this thread, a moral one where the Bible clearly informs my decision (abortion) and a constitutional one (the state of our federal government versus the scope defined by the Constitution). I don't believe either of them demonstrate ignorance regarding the Bible. And, BTW, I do revisit the Bible daily.

Mike November 12th, 2008

That is a nice one. See what I meant about the hostility of the other side. I said in my other post that I have two different personas in this, the Christian one, and the American one. I try not to spend so much time deffending the American way of things, the laws the government system, things like that. I think this country has so far been the best system available. The absolute best in my opinion would be a monarchy but only with a good king. That never lasts long though cause the good king will die and be replaced with a bad king. So our system will do for now. I do see a huge difference between detaining prisoners of war and killing a baby before or after it has been allowed to draw its first breath. The things you are talking about denying the prisoners are things that are guaranteed to American citizens, not the rest of the world. If someone wants those rights they need to become a citizen before attacking us. There are plenty of things this government does that I dissaprove of, and I believe that Bible teaches against, I do my part to change those things by voting and having conversations about them with people who will talk instead of calling names. Even then this Nation is our best option so far. That doesn't mean it always will be, it may change in the future. What part of the Scritpture is it that I don't know? just curious. You really only need the basic commandment from Moses to see that Murder is prohibited, but I do have a broader understanding of the bible than that. Also as I said before the murder of babies is not the only issue that matters it is only the one at the top of my priority list. Without being allowed to live there are no other issues that apply to someone. They have to be alive to have any other rights. That is why I see that one as first priority. People seem to think it was wrong for the German government to allow the killing of millions of jews. What is different about the U.S. Government allowing the killing of millions of babies, isn't that age discrimination, which is also frowned upon my most. Maybe I'm wrong about that, I enjoy the discussion.

Erik November 12th, 2008

As I find out more about the power of the president to issue executive orders, I think its clear that presidents can do more on the issue of abortion than just appoint judges that may or may not overturn Roe vs. Wade.

Just read this about a Bush executive order that may be overturned by Obama…

U.S. State Department officials and family planning groups such as Planned Parenthood said they expect Obama to overturn the "Mexico City" policy, first instituted by the Reagan administration. The policy prevents taxpayer dollars from funding groups that perform or promote abortions overseas.

President Clinton dropped the order, but Bush re-implemented it and expanded the policy to ensure State Department funding does not go to family planning organizations that even counsel about abortion.

If you don't believe in abortion, but you voted for Obama, your money funding abortions is a tough one to swallow.

Mike November 12th, 2008

All I initially asked was for someone to please give me some justification for this way of believing. I typically am met with hostility and name calling with no explanation, just like this.

I assume people have reasons for believing what they believe I am just currious to know what they are.

again, not looking for a fight or argument just a friendly conversation.

Tracy November 12th, 2008

Good point Erik. I guess that didn't come to mind because the impact is somewhat indirect, but I'm grateful for any lives it might have saved.

That reminds me of another area I have appreciated Whitehead's commentary through SBE. He warned that one of Bush's Supreme Court Justice nominees–I think it was Roberts–leans toward being too statist.

Thanks

Marcia November 15th, 2008

I've had a rough year. I've been through some very painful stuff, and my faith has been hit so hard it has pretty much gone away.

I've been listening to these podcasts with a glimmer of hope that it might come back, because you all seem to be real people with true belief. I've even dipped my toe into the SBE community pool with a few comments here and there.

After this one, though, I'll never be back.

I am still shaking from listening to this podcast last night. I lost my first grandchild to abortion earlier this year, very much against my will and in spite of all the support I tried to give, and I am grief-stricken.

Imagine being me, then, and hearing Erik say that what people need to do is raise their families right so that their sons won't be the kind of person to get a girl pregnant.

Erik, you don't know me, and you don't know my family. That is one of the most presumptuous, arrogant, and most of all, hurtful things you could say to a parent–that this horrible thing that happened is mine and my husband's fault. Did you give even a moment's thought that there might be listeners who have been devastated by abortion, and that just maybe you should tread carefully?

I was raised by the most loving, morally upright Christian parents one could ask for. And guess what?

I'M STILL A SINNER. As is my son.

If I had been looking for a sanctimonious podcast to heap guilt upon my grieving soul, I could have turned to Grace to You. I expected better here.

I want to tell you to go to hell, but as I no longer believe in it, it's a somewhat empty retort. Perhaps kiss my ass would be a better one.

I'm out. Good luck raising your children to be sinless. Hopefully, if they do sin, no one will throw it in your face.

Erik November 15th, 2008

Marcia,

I'm so sorry for your loss. And I apologize that my careless words caused you additional pain.

I doubt this will help at all, but I have to explain. I never intended to intimate that it was possible to mold our children to perfection. I was trying to express my belief that individual good and loving people bring change to a country, not governments, and that we vote our conscience, but after that we can't sit back and wait for the president to be our salvation. Admittedly, I did that poorly. Again, I sincerely apologize.

Marcia November 16th, 2008

Thanks for the apology. I was probably too hard on you, but keep in mind that the emotions surrounding this issue are sometimes, well, raw.

Mike November 21st, 2008

Erik I feel so bad for you getting chewed, I know how guilty you feel most times anyway. I understand the point you were trying to make but who would have thought that someone in that accuall position would be listening? I say stuff all the time and get in trouble for it when someone in the room is ,unbeknownst to me, going through the thing I commented on or has in the past. To be totally safe I only talk about fat white men that have been punished with 3 babies, cause I am one of them so I think that means i'm allowed.

I hope….

Mike M. November 22nd, 2008

So Mike…"Left wing liberal Christians". I'm gonna give it my best shot…It's not an oxy-moron, I promise. Abortion. Gay Rights. Prayer in school. Evolution in school. I grew up on those political talking points. That's what Christians were supposed to stand for, politically. My sisters went to abortion protests and all that. How those issues ended up synonomous with "capitalism"/"free market" slash "personal responsibility"/"its-not-the-secular-governments-job-to-care-for-the-poor-and-underprivledged" is beyond me. Jesus' #1 Message and instructions to his believers on this earth was to care for the poor and the fatherless and the widow. When God through the prophets spoke out against the people of Israel it was because they did not care for the poor and widow, and fatherless, and took advantage of them. There is NOTHING "free market" about the gospel. Lend money and get paid back with interest is about as far from the message of Christ as you can get. But we don't live in a perfect world. So, whatever. That being said, I do not like abortion. I am opposed to it ideologically. But I will not vote on it, because those who run on that platform do well to keep it in suspension, for as long as they do, they ensure that they will have all those votes to count on at re-election time. And those men, honestly, could give a rat's ___. They don't cry or lose sleep over murdered babies. Do they care and feel that way? Sure. But that is NOT what they spend there days on the job legislating on or about. If Roe Vs. Wade is over-turned, they will lose that voting block, because then those voters will vote on issues that may or may not agree with their domestic policy/foreign policy/emmigration/economic/social/heathcare/defense/tax/whatever positions. Can you be a Hispanic person voting for softer emmigration laws, or a Black person voting for better social programs in their neighborhoods, or a White union member voting for pro-labor laws, or a pacifist voting against a war (any war mind you) and be a Christian, and love Christ? OF COURSE you can. Unfortunately those issues historically lay on the opposite side of the religious right's positions. I anyway, do not think that all of those should be mutually exclusive from each other. But as long as they are separated, it is politically expedient for alot of people. So, there's my attempt Mike. What do you think? hi erik.

Mike November 23rd, 2008

That was really good. I agree that those other things are important I just don't see how they are less important than allowing humans to live. I suppose in God's view of things all 10 commandments are equal. I just don't see what good it is to have imigration rights, or better social programs if you don't first have the right to live beyond birth.
It also does seem to make sense that these guys have neglected there opportunity to do something about abortion in our land. I just don't know what other option there is, the other side promises to increase the availability of abortions to everyone.
I would like to see the government stay out of it and see the doctors uphold there oaths to never do harm, and care about there patients enough to be concerned for not only the life of the patients that they kill but also the health of the mothers.
I guesse it is just a bad system we have here, humans have the desire to sin and we all will continue to do it till we die.
It is just very sad to sit and watch and feel like there is nothing we can do to help.
Thanks a bunch for the calm and rational reply, it is the first I have gotten of that type. I guesse we all have different things on the top of our priority list.

Marcia November 24th, 2008

Mike, don't feel too bad for Erik; we have, if not kissed, then at least made up.

The thing is, when I used to blog, I was quite proud of writing a post that merited an Internet Monk mention.

(http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/tim-hardaway-and-the-sin-we-love-to-hate)

I don't have the blog up any more, but the gist of it was that I felt there were other things that Christians should be focusing on.

Funny how you can change your mind when it happens to you.