Ken September 18th, 2009

Tonight's show is amazing. I love that there are Christian's who are not afraid to embrace science and its laws. They are as unchanging as God, and if science and nature is God's creations we should be able to find His signature there.

Bruce Szwast September 19th, 2009

My card is in the mail. I am speachless for now, and so perpexled at your unbelief in what God hath said. Jason Lisle of Answers In Genesis should be your next guest. ASAP. Before Jesus comes back to find us in our unbelief.

Christians, Evolution, Young Earth Creationism… « adventures in mercy September 19th, 2009

[...] about this very subject that prompted this blog post—Christians and Evolution. Not sure what Hugh Ross is going to say, but I do remember that my Hovind days viewed Dr. Ross as a dangerous man.  That means Ross is [...]

mike September 22nd, 2009

I wanna go to dinner!!!

Chemical Erik September 24th, 2009

Bruce – This isn't unbelief in what GOD said. It is starting only with what is stated in the bible and observed in nature and making logical conclusions and speculations. On top of that, the very logic that is used for analysis is the very logic GOD uses in the bible. We are all human and will make mistakes, so I'm certain Dr. Ross isn't 100% correct in what he says, but neither is Jason Lisle. I would hope that we could discuss the more specific issues you disagree about rather than claiming this is a form of unbelief.

Bruce Szwast September 25th, 2009

Somewhat less 'speachless'. Thanks Erik (good producing, yet) for being willing to discuss this; we need this; rather than establishing our strongholds. My challenge to etc was for = time. Ross and Lisle talk at a higher level; possibly too much so; but we can glean some differences. I do not contend that L is always right; both are human. My contention is that L starts from the Bible; R starts from science; L is reconciling science & the Bible; R is squeezing science into the Bible (yea, my opinion). I hope this text fits into an unknown size box! Predestination is so uncertain; will of the creature, you know.
My Christian experience has been one of moving from unbelief to belief. Is God real; is the Bible true; is Jesus really God; was Jesus really here; did He die for me; was He really resurrected; is that my hope (in the twinkling). Message to the world: Yea or Nay. Does it matter that 'today' 51 % (at least) of voters believe that abortion, climate rescue, and all other kinds of irresponsible behavior are needed to save our universe; or is it God's universe? 6013 years (soon) shows God to be relevant. Liberal thought is poking holes in the Bible; the underpinnings of humanism – the devil's playground.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/archive/special-webcast/dr-jason-lisle-dr-hugh-ross-debate

Leon Goodenough September 25th, 2009

Thanks Steve for having Dr Ross on your show! So many believers are threatened by his perspectives because they think the bible clearly teaches the idea that yom = 24 hr day. Quite similar to the day when believers were threatened by the idea the earth is not the (physical) center of the universe. Not wise to tie your faith to an idea based on faulty assumptions about the clear meaning of scripture. Makes for a passionate fight when Jesus prayed we would be united. Dr Ross's ministry is bearing much fruit, unlike the cemented disdain for all thing Christian borne by the young earth zealots.

Chemical Erik September 25th, 2009

I'll have to check out that debate when I'm home, my connection at work won't let me access audio or video files on the net.
I agree Lisle starts with the Bible. I believe he than adds the interpretations from his traditions, then tries to make sense of the natural word presupposing the first two.
I disagree about Ross starting with science. Ross starts with the bible and natural observation on equal footing. Ross than uses scientific methods and logic to make sense and draw conclusions from the starting presuppositions of the bible and natural observation.
I find the difference come in Lisle using the interpretations from his tradition where Ross uses observation of nature. As nature is a way GOD communicates with us and human interpretation is not from GOD, I believe Ross has the more appropriate method. In both cases, the bible is a presupposition which I think we agree is critical.

Another note, I'm not the Erik who produces the program. Sorry if sharing a first name with him caused any confusion.

Erik September 25th, 2009

Dang it! You were saying such good things I was enjoying taking credit.

Bruce Szwast September 26th, 2009

Oh 2 Eriks. Erik #2 needs to come out of his shell anyway. Thanks Erik #1 for being thoughtful enough to 'follow the link'. I saw parts of another Ross/Lisle debate, a video version, which was basically the same, but the radio link was better (a year older maybe, same issues, but Ross is recently promoting material evolution?). I could focus on issues and not expressions, and I actually could listen to it all (5am today). The calls were great – we can learn from each other. If only I could get Erik #2 to accept the challenge of giving Lisle equal time on etc; not another debate; at least not yet. The Reformed community needs to hear both sides.

Your 'tradition' comment about Lisle confused me. Lisle is of the reformed tradition, I believe; too bad he is not allowed in reformed churches (DJ Kennedy's hosting was the first and last as far as I know). But the real issues are his scientific credentials and research. Much of AIG are of the same category. Check out some of their findings. They basically have discredited biological evolution; next is cosmic or maybe material evolution – the last stand for many; mark my words.

And I can sympathize with Ross's intentions to reach out. I have a coworker, well versed in evolutionary science. We have debated (discussed) the issue (10 years) from soup (primordial Larry) to nuts (young earth creationist Bruce – we do have a sense of humor). The end of each discussion seems to revolve around faith in Christ for salvation. The response has been: not the answer I was looking for, or why does God not make it clear? I still have hope but I will not compromise – he respects that. And I respect him for keeping a rational dialogue. I have learned a lot from Larry.

Now what about the 'elephant in the middle of the room'? Neither of you commented on my second thought – the current cultural chaos. Where did we lose control; how do we get it back? I see where Germany is holding national elections on Sunday. I am not strict about Sunday, but worship and a quiet day works for me – where did a once 'Christian Europe', a beacon for the world, succumb to darkness. Their governments are hostile towards Christianity, and even home schooling: "we must have evolution taught to have an efficient society". If America turns out the lights, who is next, China? Evolution in our schools, cheapens life, and diminishes God for a lifetime – do we dare compromise?

As for Leon, welcome. As for your comment: if you will check your history, the church of Copernicus's day was apostate. Even Martin Luther was not sure; not enough young earther's, I suppose. They were buying into current secular science. Does that sound familiar? And did anyone have dinner with Mike? Breakfast, in the beginning, of a day, is more important, at least it was, in my day.

ps Erik #2 – what is the record for number of comments on a program?

Bruce Szwast September 26th, 2009

Another PS. My wife reminded me of this one after reading our responses. About, Breakfast that is: Yom, Yom.

Chemical Erik September 28th, 2009

In terms of control, we never had it. GOD is the one in control and he allowed us a brief rest from the typical tyrannical governments that have dominated throughout world history. All we can do now is pray and vote.

In terms of AIG on SBE, I don't have a problem with the idea. I don't think the AIG guys are as interesting radio, at least in terms of repeated shows. But, that's a decision for the SBE and AIG people.

Finally, the biggest (though not only) cultural issue I was referring to is the interpretation of a Genesis 1 "day". Despite the claims from AIG, I don't think the appropriate definition is clear in the text. Literal interpretations read "there was rising and there was setting, the X th day". Not, "a rising" and "a setting" which would be clear, but simply rising and setting.

Finally, AFAIK RTB has never supported evolutionism. They recognize microevolution (changes within a species) and recognize that the bible leaves room for more than commonly thought by defining kinds, instead of the modern definition of species. The key is that a king reproduces in kind. That is one kind and never change (or evolve or devolve) into another kind, but many changes can occur within a kind.

Bruce Szwast September 28th, 2009

Thanks Erik #1 for your explanation about RTB. Maybe we are closer than we think.

If I could summarize my viewpoint, and this may not be typical for young earthers, but: God created a mature universe; and it is increasing in immaturity; faster than we may realize. God knows the last day; but He has also calibrated the days according to our carelessness, A lot of understanding can be gained from this basic viewpoint.

Deuteronomy 4

40. Keep his decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live long in the land the LORD your God gives you for all time.

Finally, Exodus
8. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
9. Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10. but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
11. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

God Bless

Chemical Erik September 29th, 2009

Thanks for the Deuteronomy quote. I know I need to hear it.

I think your viewpoint is consistent with other intellectually honest young-earthers.

Now that I've listened to the whole debate, I do see Ross and Lisle being very close on biblical issues, with the key difference being the YOM definition we've already discussed. I wish the audio quality was better, as the content of the discussion was a good basic level discussion I think would help familiarize many people with the issue.

Bruce Szwast September 29th, 2009

Thanks Erik #1. I am so relieved we can end this session on a positive note. We just have to get Erik #2 on the phone to AIG ((859) 727-2222) to get a 'quality' equal time session. Maybe even a debate (er discussion) later.
Take care.

Eric October 7th, 2009

Equal time for AIG? American Christian pop and church culture is saturated, across the board and up & down the line, with books, preachers, radio programs, and even songs (e.g., remember the line from Geoff Moore's mid-1990's CCM hit "Evolution": "Big-Bang fiction that we factualize"?) espousing young-earth creationism — often rabidly so. YEC representatives have publicly raked Dr. Ross over the coals as a "heretic" or "apostate," despite the fact the clear passion of his heart and of his ministry RTB is pointing people to Jesus Christ; yet in over 18 years of following and supporting his ministry, I have never heard him respond in kind to these vicious attacks. Dr. Ross, were he less humble, might justifiably borrow a line from Rush Limbaugh: "I AM equal time!"

Eric October 7th, 2009

A couple of clarifications…(1) I am yet a THIRD Eric (different spelling), in addition to the 2 Eriks who have contributed above; and (2) I don't mean to imply that Geoff Moore's espousal of young-earth creationism is "rabid"…I may disagree with him on this non-essential issue, but I have utmost respect for Geoff as a gentle, gracious, godly man…

Hurk October 7th, 2009

So 3 Eriks walk into a bar…

Erik October 7th, 2009

Ha!

Chemical Erik October 7th, 2009

"So 3 Eriks walk into a bar…"
Then Hurk ducks!

You think we'd learn from each other.

The Universe is Really Really REALLY Big! November 22nd, 2009

[...] we were assigned to read A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawkins and after hearing Hugh Ross on Steve Brown, etc I decided to read one of his books to get his perspective on the universe as a Christian. I would [...]