Hurk March 8th, 2011

Galli's take on this topic was a breath of fresh air.

Erik Guzman March 8th, 2011

Probably helps that he actually read the damned book before giving us his take!

Rectagon March 8th, 2011

Go ahead, tell us that the "the neo-Reformed truth squad" is Mark Driscoll and John Piper. We want names named! LOL

KDC March 8th, 2011

A couple Sundays ago, the pastor of our church interrupted a conversation I was having with his wife about hair styles of all things to tell her that he'd just heard that Rob Bell wrote a book proving that a loving God would never send anyone to hell. He then went on to explain that he had been warning people about this heretic for a long time. I just sort of nodded and smiled, then came home and Googled the whole thing only to find out the book wasn't even out yet. Uggh! Needless to say, I really appreciate what you guys do here. Thank you!!

G-Rock March 9th, 2011

Here's an interesting review put up recently by someone who HAS read the book.

http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/love-wins-a-review-of-rob-bells-new-book

A few quotes that stood out to me from his review:

"Questions matter. They can help you to grow deeper in your knowledge of the truth and your love for God–especially when you're dealing with the harder doctrines of the Christian faith. But questions can also be used to obscure the truth. They can be used to lead away just as easily as they can be used to lead toward. Ask Eve."

"Does Rob Bell deny the existence of hell? He would say no. We would say yes. He affirms, but only after redefining. And that's just a clever form of denial."

I'm somewhere in the middle of all this. I'm a young dude myself (33), and I feel like the new wave of "hip emergents" are so obsessed with the "questions", that the questions have almost become like a god to them. It's to the point now that whenever I hear someone talking about the "questions" I have this reaction to want to vomit. We have rode the "questions" to death. You wonder at some point if they're even interested in getting "answers". I guess I would consider myself in the stream of inclusivists like CS Lewis, etc. In other words, you don't get heaven unless you want to. Tim Keller has a GREAT chapter on hell in "The Reason For God". Universalism makes absolutely no sense to me. Yet, I still hold out hope that God's love does really win and I shall be surprised when we get home.

For the record, I wouldn't consider myself in line w/ most evangelical stuff going on these days. And on the other extreme, I don't buy the flower child Christian movement. Must be all those years of Catholic school embedded in me!

Bruce Szwast March 10th, 2011

I must confess that I am an old white guy too. That is the way God made me. Old comes with the territory, and after 66 years in this existence, and yet still closer to the next existence, I do find myself looking more and more not to my future so much, but more to my past and what have I accomplished. Reflection is sometimes encouraging and sometimes it is downright depressing. But reflection should lead us to, what is next?

I grew up in the 50's with a lot of discipline around me, telling me, well, to behave myself and to listen to my elders. In the 60's I started working, got drafted, survived, and kept on working. Fifty years I have been working, and God has blessed me with an environment that has told me to behave myself and listen to my elders.

In the 70's I became a Christian and became involved in a church that told me to behave myself and listen to my elders. In the 80's I got my current job, a ground floor opportunity in personal computers, and a boss who would tell me 'I just sold this project, find out what they need and give it to them'. A chance to establish my own discipline, and a real adventure! By the way, in the 90's I got married, and my wife reminded me to behave myself, and listen to your elders. Another adventure and another story.

Don't get me wrong, this was not a fairy tale existence, and I was aware of a counter culture (and affected by it) developing since the 60's. A culture that said 'we do not care what has happened before, and we will find our own way'. Now look where we are: economic, social, and spiritual chaos. No absolutes and no fear of God. The time is right for false messiahs and antichrists.

Even at work I now have to deal with a mentality that the company comes first, and not the customer. Even in the Church, I have to deal with a mentality that says we have to find something new. We have to blend everything; we need more books, more tapes, better theology. What is next?

In the 00's (or Oh Oh years) I have been learning to defend the Bible from a historical perspective (never could get the hang of theology). Especially Genesis 1, a six day creation, 6000 years, etc. Hey, if I could defend this, I could defend almost anything. Maybe that is why God gave us Genesis 1; a discipline that supports all other Bible concepts.

I know, many tell us that a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 is not 'that' important, but God seemed to think it was important, and many of my elders seemed to think so.

But, maybe you will just have to find out for yourself, and someday have to reflect on 'what did I accomplish and what is next'?

Obed March 10th, 2011

When I first became aware of this latest Rob Bell controversy, I was pointed toward Galli's article. Galli seems to often be a lone voice of sanity in a sea of polemical shouting-matches. Like Erik said, it probably helps that he read the book! Here's a great quote from the Galli article:

"This is not to suggest that frank, honest, theological exchange should not take place. It should! But traditionalists need to marshal arguments and not ad hominems. The same goes for the innovators."

G-Rock March 10th, 2011

another review for "Love Wins" by someone that read it:

http://thetenthleper.com/2011/03/01/review-love-wins-by-rob-bell-part-i-some-introductory-thoughts/

Mark Graham March 11th, 2011

Bruce – there is absolutely (count on this absolute) no way to know how old the earth and universe is. I can easily defend that – logically. But if the earth is about 10,000 years old then that brings God uncomfortably close. And then makes us seem rather important. And then what we do becomes to feel important. And if that is true – then that jives with what Jesus said in his death and resurrection on our behalf. And then that would mean that we can have hope.

If the earth is 4.6 billion years old and we have a human written history of it in just the past 7000 years…then. Wait! How is that possible? Was there like a world-wide flood that trashed all human history before that? I don't know…but I find it hard to imagine another explaination. And even then the earth can be 4.6 billion years old – no problem. But this flood thing would jive with the Bible. And if that is true – oh no, maybe other things are true in that book that explains some things.

But then Jesus never felt it important to nail down the number of years for us either. But he did talk about a lot of stuff. Quite a personality, a good man, a good teacher. He had a 3 year ministry that was very popular. In fact, really popular for a guy in sandals just wandering around…for 3 years. If you took the impact of his little venture and weigh it against all the great leaders, wars, and movements in human history grouped together….he wins…big. Wait! No one person could do that….unless he was……

Bruce Szwast March 12th, 2011

Thank you Mark for being so willing to engage on the subject of a 6015 (+/-1) year universe. I normally do not receive anything but ridicule when I mention it.

And I do appreciate having this format of etc to express an opinion in a thoughtful and honest dialogue which really needs time to develop. You reason and you talk, and I reason and I talk. This eliminates the tendency to use debating skills to cloud or overwhelm the truth. We only become overweight and die shamefully when we eat another's lunch.

I also believe in this format we can consult Scripture rather than depend on past ideas we grew up with and most likely came from distortions imposed on us by so many media sources that just keep us from 'discerning the truth' about God and His purposes. More and more of these people are 'the devil's own disciples'.

Isn't it interesting that the more evolution infects our society, the more of them there are? And the more that vote the 'progressive or socialist agenda'? The Church of the first resurrection (54-1054 ad) was blessed with persecution, numbers, and influence, and a 1000 year victory. I think we should go for 1001!

These same media sources will have a field day with the Japan earthquake citing that in addition to funding solutions for global warming, we also need to fund solutions for earthquakes, tsunamis, and out of control nuclear power plants, not to mention the economic impact of so many disasters.

Surviving our prenatal life (abortion – this is where the millions number belongs) and getting old (nursing home or euthanize them) are disasters also. A cradle to grave reality that should scare us all to death or at best to Jesus of Nazareth (all things were created by him and for him – Col 1:16).

Mark, do you know where the 10,000 year universe comes from? There is an alternative copy of Genesis which includes about 4000 more years of genealogy. The early Church dismissed this version because of so many inaccuracies. The early Church was also very much aware of:

*** Rev 20: 18. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. ***

These verses scare me to death, and should scare anyone who comments on Scripture. Take a deep breath…

You know on Friday's ETC, Steve was dying to know about how Noah got so many animals to sign up for the cruise – what happened after the break? Was it censored, or did we just forget to pursue it.

I thought it was very important to understand that the 'various kinds' of animals were (God)smart enough to come to the Ark for salvation, and would go a long way in understanding the meaning of the flood, why there will only be one, and that our disasters today are just the aftershocks from the Big Earthquake and the really Big Tsunami.

And I believe etc is right about not teaching theology to children. Maybe we should take them to (and support) your local (or not so local Creation Museum) to see and understand the Wonders of God's Perfect Six Day Creation (which is really de-evolving) instead of letting them fall prey to our very local public school's curriculum that teaches what precipitated the Big Flood to begin with.

Now that is a TSUNAMI that the world fears and yet desperately needs to hear.

Hope to talk more Mark and I do have a 6000 year computer cd that demonstrates Bible Chronology and if you give the 'ever improving Erik#2' your address, I will gladly mail it to you, first class, of course.

Mark Graham March 12th, 2011

Thanks Bruce – love to have it. But don't know wo Erik 2 is. If you let me know I will pass on the address. Sometimes I think some crazy things. Let me list a few and then tell you why I think they are important. This list will fall under 'informed speculation.'

Same time range – reformation, printing press

Same time range – King James, sun never sets on the Bristish Empire – American revivals

Same time range – American missionary expeditions, WWII (someone in the spiritual realm figured out that Isreal was about to come about…can't fill an Isreal with Jews if there aren't any – what the war was really about) note: much like when they killed children knowing that Moses was somewhere on the scene. Much like when they killed a bunch of kids knowing that Jesus was on the scene. There is a time-line.

For the final installment of time…no one knows. I expect no one anywhere knows including the spiritual realm. Matt. 24 and Mark 10…gives things to watch for. Today we don't know for certainty if we are seeing these things or just way over-informed on global matters.

Anyway, here is the thing. God has always been in control. And He only gave us one thing to call our own. We can keep it or give it back to Him…trust. It is the ultimate act of worship and the ultimate power to live.

Bruce Szwast March 13th, 2011

Thanks Mark for your interest and sorry, Erik#2 is the guy at ETC, who they keep locked in a little glass booth. How he maintains a family life if beyond me.

But if you forward an email thru Contact above to Erik, I am sure he will forward it to me. I don't think he is so bad.

Have to run, SS is about Acts 2 and these verses do help to highlight your thoughts on Church History. A perfect example of how God's foreknowledge is so vital to His Sovereignty, in the midst of Chaos:

21. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
22. "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
23. This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
24. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.