Anthony Ward March 28th, 2011

When it comes to christians (preachers in particular) bashing one another I'd almost rather live under an "ecclesial rock" as you put it. Ignorant to all the media.

One of the best lines you wrote was that they are "people on the same team". That's what Jesus said when the disciples were whining. If they're not against us they're for us, we're on the same team.

I cheer when John Piper hits a home run and I also cheer when Rob Bell turns a double play. I do have to admit I get a bit disappointed when some preachers seem to strike out every time they open their cakehole. But hey, they are still on the team so I'm not going to put them down in front of the rest of the team.

Be blessed

bill March 29th, 2011

Susan,

I really appreciated the article. I think the most interesting thing about this whole debate is that people are now interested. John Stott said a similar thing years ago, and I don't remember much being said about him, but anyway here are my two issues with your article:

1) It wasn't the Pharisee's, Sadducee's, etc talking about hell…it was Jesus. He mentions hell even more than Piper. I believe one reason He was so filled with grief and passion for the lost wasn't that people were drunks and prostitutes and needed to be on the straight and narrow but because he new the torments of hell.

2) I know you weren't siding with either Piper or Bell but saying that, what fool would go to a cross, be brutally scourged, etc if it didn't really matter in the end what someone believes. Excuse my irony, but when someone says something like what Bell did, I want to ask what the hell was the cross for?

Susan, I love your writing and love when your on the radio with the "Old White Guy"…I definitely side with you on how Piper reacted. I just don't have a lot of sympathy for Bell's new theology.

Bill

Susan March 29th, 2011

Anthony: Amen and Amen. Bill: Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. If Bell does minimize the Cross in his book, then I totally agree. But I haven't read it yet. When I watched the promo video, I didn't think he was ignoring the cross; I thought he was introducing the dramatic question of the book: it was like a movie trailer: all the questions weren't asked, let alone answered. Still I can understand why the video provoked such a reaction. Have you read it Bell's book yet? I may wait until it's at the library .

I do apologize if by bringing in the Pharisees and Sadducees you thought I was addressing the issue of Hell. I meant that the Pharisees seemed too legalistic and the Sadducees too worldly. Jesus was very clear about eternal torment. As Scot McKnight said, we're talking about people's eternal fate here.

CS Lewis wondered the same thing: ONLY Christ can save you, but might it be possible to be saved by Christ without knowing it was Christ who was doing the saving? Lewis alludes to it in the Last Battle. Jesus spoke to the matter in Matthew 25:31-46.

'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'"

At any rate, I'm glad you recognize I wasn't siding with either Piper or Bell, but you are right to point out that Hell is not an issue to dismiss, nor is the cross.

Steve Boone March 29th, 2011

Susan,
You are braver than I am. Getting involved in this spat is like trying to break up a fight between brothers or spouses, if you have to then you are going to get hurt. Maybe we should just spray them with the hose.

Mark Graham March 29th, 2011

Great article. First – it is obvious that there should be a 5 day waiting period before getting a Twitter account. Second – I am currently selling my first novel and terrified now that I will have to learn Twitter…and buy one of those new facny phones to go with it.

This article got me to thinking. Hell is really kind of 'academic' and not something people worry about much I don't think. But it does present a kind of social paradox. In the video Mr. Bell presents a question (which is awesome – the freedom to do that) of 'how can God be good and send billions to hell.' But he comes at it from the position that good, or his example of 'renoun', people being acceptable to God. Well, maybe, but that ignores the reality of good and evil. Lets say you have a 'good' on one side – and an 'evil' on the other side. Now replace that with 'heaven' on one side and 'hell' on the other side. Now you place Jesus betwen the two. What you have is an 'answer' to the question of good and evil. A reconcilliation…in the flesh.

Paradox: everyone plays out this good vs. evil…discuss heaven and hell. When what is required is faith. And for Mr. Piper, rightly theologically repulsed (in my view), requires more faith in God than in the errors of man. (I understand this from personal experience

So his questions are great. And I think worthy of discussion in and out of the church. Mr. Piper should applaud his brother for motivating folks to think and talk about God. If that is his heart (God knows) then he can be used greatly to lead people to the answer.

When I was 30 I just finished a book that produced so many questions as to lead the reader to an almost certainty that life was meaningless.(Hume: On Human Understanding). Not 5 minutes later a young pastor knocked on my apartment door to tell me his church was near by, "come visit", left a pamphlet. 3 months later I got an answer…to my dismal but honest question.

Susan March 30th, 2011

Steve: fire hose. Great idea. We are talking about a lake of fire, after all.

Mark: Yes, you will have to do twitter. But don't get an iPhone. Not on AT&T anyway. Or you will learn the real meaning of "Hell starts now."

Bruce Szwast March 30th, 2011

Boy, this is going to be a tough one to unravel. Each time I think about the subject of 'Eternal Security' I think about Mel Brook's movie 'High Anxiety'. I have seen only parts of the movie because I just cannot handle the atmosphere and maybe the attitude of Mel's movies.

Nevertheless, I feel 'high anxiety' each time I view our news sources about all that is going on in the world today. When I first 'turned to Christ' back some 30 years ago, it was mainly because I felt the world was not giving me much hope.

I started going to different Churches then (and today) and frankly, I felt more anxiety. I could not get enough of Bible reading and each sermon or point of view caused me to go to the Scriptures to get an accurate picture of what I was supposed to believe.

Fortunately, then (or in God's Providence) I had an elderly Presbyterian woman friend who invited me to her Church. At the time there were two 'old seminary professors' alternately giving up their Sunday Mornings to be at this Church and teach us (me) Bible History, Old and New Testament. Boy, I was in History Hog Heaven – I could not get enough.

Some of our Baptist and Charismatic friends would pressure me by saying I should be 'dunked' and that I have to study Premil Theology (I am milpre now) and I could not possibly believe in Predestination. Boy was I getting confused and anxious, but Bible History helped keep my feet on the ground.

You may ask, how does Bible History help me with my feet or walk with the Lord? To be brief, it helps me to see the Bible in context and ultimately feel secure that God's Spirit will supply answers in due time. Basically, with every pretext there is a context that we must look for which helps explain any dilemma.

In those 30 years I have also learned enough of Bible, world, and Church History, none of which am I an expert in (thankfully), but I have learned enough to tell me that all theologies are somehow the Bible out of context. That is why we have 'high anxiety'. That is why we all bicker.

And today I sense a movement to 'blend' differing theologies together. Wow, talk about Pot Puree Piper. A few years ago I discovered a 1610 document called the '5 Articles of the Remonstrance' which summarized the work of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). This work has sadly been condemned from 'here to eternity and back to Creation' and badly misinterpreted.

The main concept of this document is 'grace is not cheap, nor is it limited, BUT it is cooperative. No where in the Bible does it say 'the just shall live by grace (it is by faith) and no where does it say 'no one wants God (it is no one seeks after God, and He does pursue, and that is security).

I believe I have defined 'my faith here', after that we have the 'practice issue' to deal with, and I suppose we would want to bicker over that too, but why go there, faith should unite us behind some of Jesus' last words on earth:

John 14: 23. Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25. "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."

Wow, another Trinity verse, let me write that down. Also, if anyone hears of a First Arminian Church here in town, let me know. I will even settle for the Second.

Steve in GA April 2nd, 2011

Hmmm as the first (and only?) poster on this forum who has actually read Rob's book let me offer this. The most fascinating thing about this issue is how angry some Christians get about the idea that God may not actually torture people endlessly. Regardless of whether it's true or not… why does this idea make so many Christians mad?

Do we think that "those guys" deserve punishment and "We deserve grace" Do we really think we earned something here… is that why people get mad?…… Hello…. "We" don't deserve any of God's blessings. Puzzling really.

Rob's book is a very easy read on the subject and there are many others that deal with the same subject matter in a much more academic tone. I encourage you to read it.

1Ti 4:9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance

1Ti 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
NIV

…. man I hate it when stuff like this is in the bible…

David April 3rd, 2011

Susan, thanks for connecting the Matthew 25 passage; it does appear that Jesus can save whomever He wants to save, even without their knowledge. One would think that would please a Calvinist. Re: CS Lewis–In The Last Battle, the talking animals who saw Aslan and loved him could be with him; those that saw him and were terrified lost their souls. (By the way, my Unitarian Universalist friend started reading the Chronicles of Narnia after seeing the first movie, and she loved them. That is, until she read The Last Battle. She hated it, and I think it was because she finally got the point of the other books.) For another interesting point of view about people choosing Hell, Lewis' "The Great Divorce" is terrific.

Bruce: Methodists are supposed to be Arminians, I think. Someone will correct me if this is wrong.

Susan April 3rd, 2011

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies. There are other sites where the comments (by Christians) have become so insulting and malevolent, I despair ANYONE will make it to heaven. I have not read the book yet, but will HAVE TO. From what I have deduced in other reviews, I'm going to disagree with Bell on points and be outright annoyed by some of them. However, as Bill pointed out in his comment above, ti's good just that people are thinking again about their beliefs.

I think it's important for us to stop and examine where our concepts of Hell came from: what have we derived from medieval ideas, or European / American folklore? Are they correct?

David: re the Last Battle, one of my favorite sections was with the fate of Emeth, the Calormene soldier who was devoted to Tash; not Aslan. http://narnia.wikia.com/wiki/Emeth
Emeth was a righteous man and a true believer, but had been deceived into thinking Tash was the real God. When he encounters Aslan in the real Narnia, he thinks he's going to be destroyed. But Aslan welcomes his as a son. This feels like an illustration of Matthew 25. "Man looks at the appearance, but God looks at the heart."

Bruce Szwast April 4th, 2011

Hear'say David? What Methodists are supposed to be and what they actually are can be two different things. I appreciate the suggestion, and I have heard it before, and I have been to Methodist Churches in my lifetime, and I came away with the feeling that whatever they are or once were depends on their careful study and exposition of the Scriptures. And to be honest I do not find a careful and contextual study and exposition of the Scriptures at enough of the Churches I have attended over time and especially recently.

I was going to comment this morning on the latest etc program about 'what is a man to be, what is a woman to be, and what should our children be learning'. I believe this is a proper understanding of what I heard on this program. Zach certainly posed the million dollar question when he asked 'what do we do with the young men who do not seem to be motivated'. I believe the author/guest suggested we need another book about this.

My comment was going to be that the Apostle Paul wrote a few good books that are Most Worthy of consideration when talking about all of our roles in God's Kingdom. And Hebrews 11 certainly is a good place to find practical examples of heroes and role models for all of us. The Old Testament is a gold mine of lifetime experiences. Sorry, theologies and more books are a poor substitute (if not contradictory), helpful for maintaining some balance, but a poor substitute for God's Word.

My 'tongue in cheek' lament about finding a true Arminian Church is Most Likely a 'pipe dream – sorry Steve'. And I do believe that 'cooperative grace' represents a church without walls or ecclesiastical structure. Again, hearsay would say that this point of view represents a works mentality that leads to universalism. Yet on the other hand we have the naysayers that would promote a concept that leads to exclusive'ism (or Pharisee'ism) and somehow works represent your dutiful obedience.

Salvation begins in Genesis 3 where God, in Mercy, provides an animal sacrifice (or the first death) as covering for Adam and Eve's disobedience. Abel in response brought sacrifices with a willing, contrite, and obedient heart. Cain's attitude proves this by representing the antithesis and martyring Abel. Nothing has changed since, except the willing and obedient sacrifice and suffering of Christ in His own death which made Perfect the original sacrifice.

To say that Jesus only died for some select few is an affront to God's Justice and Rationality, and there is No Way In …. that I am going to say on Judgment Day 'boy I am sure glad I did not have to make the Big Decision' to One who calls me friend and brother, if you love Me? That would be an affront to God's Beauty and Character. And you think about that!

To say that I cooperated does not mean that it was my idea or that I knew all the right things to do or to say. I am just glad that I have God's Word to instruct me in all areas of life. But, I have to admit, God sure has been very, very merciful – praise be to that!

And I still like John 14:23-27, always worth repeating: 'anyone' or 'whosoever' with a promise, and did you ever think that being Chosen means that God The Father is pleased with our decision to love Christ His Son, and obey His teaching and His Spirit?

John 14: 23. Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25. "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."