Bruce Szwast September 11th, 2011

Two gators walk into this bar see, and after a few stiff ones (a dead chicken bar), one gator says, over a cup of coffee, “what do you get when you cross a Liberal with a Calvinist?" The second gator meditates for a time and responds with “an Arminian”?

The first gator at first says NO, but then thinks, maybe that is not a bad answer, but then insists “no, the answer is, you have a group of Christians who are able to ‘plan a trip’ over 12 to 16 lanes of rush hour traffic on multiple DC Beltways to deliver a supply of food to a needy population in the inner city, and then return the same way, and then do it again and again with the remaining survivors”.

The second gator then says “that is impossible and you know it”. But the first gator replies, “but that is no more impossible than what the early Christians did after the death and resurrection of Jesus, when they obeyed the Great Commission:
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Mt 28:18. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
———-
The first gator continues: of course the early disciples where not saddled with bags of food but carried with them the Good News of Jesus, the Bread of Life. Who knows how many and how far they travelled, but there are many historical accounts of their perilous journeys that cost many life and limb.

And I am sure that many carried with them some needed agricultural and business skills, but the message they brought was one of hope and one with the Authority of another promised Comforter, The Holy Spirit of God.

But many people forget the political groundwork laid by the Apostle Paul in all of his trials and tribulations to Christianize the Roman Empire, you know the force that changed the Pax Romana to Pax Christos, and virtually conquered the entire known world for Christ:
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Acts 9:15. But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.
———-
Not that all where Christians, but at least Christianity ruled. What happened to the Church of the Blessed First Resurrection, or the first 1000 years? Did they become complacent and succumb to the terrorists of their day?

And what ever happened to the Church of the Second Resurrection or the Reformation, who relit the flame of learning, technology, and Christian thought in Europe and missionary endeavors throughout the world? Did they become complacent and succumb to the terrorists of their day?

Today we seem to have the Christians to do the legwork, but maybe what we really need is to send more Pauls’ (not Rons') to Washington to penetrate the Beltway Mentality and restore Law and Order to our government and our nation (not to mention the drivers there).

I see that JFK’s Peace Corp is still an entity, but seems like they have become complacent and are succumbing to the terrorists of our day.

How about after we establish Law and Order here, we beef up the Peace Corps with our excess, overpaid, and overzealous OSHA, EPA, and Interior people, environmentalists, community and union organizers, as well as many ex out of work soldiers as policemen and instructors to places like Tanzania.

The wife and I have sponsored 20 years of children through World Vision, losing some to death, or age limit, or moving on. My big concern is what they are moving on to.

I sent a football (ultra deflated, with a needle) to one boy and received a picture of him in a football jersey throwing it. Priceless.

I suspect that 9/11 is really a reminder from God that we do not have to succumb to terrorist activity, either here and abroad. And what an unemployment solver, getting busy for God in a very needy world.

Bill Chickering September 14th, 2011

The church is gone. Long gone. Just get out there, not because anyone told you to do it, but because it's simply the right thing to do.
This talk of Calvinists and Arminians is ridiculous. Seems that the simple teachings of Jesus aren't enough for us (after all, we're complicated individuals), so we codify them into Institutes and doctrines. I've never understood that, never will. Christ was unequivocal and clear, no interpretation needed.

I do volunteer GED teaching 15 hours a week in inner city St. Paul.
This doesn't make me a special anything. And it's a far more spiritual experience than anything I ever got in a church. Christ was clear about what needs to be done. You don't need to be a Calvinist or an Arminian to figure it out.

And terrorism is not the enemy, as the legendary cartoon charactier Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Mark Graham September 14th, 2011

I'm no scholar or even academic or theologian. But I did a study once of the verses in Matt. 28 that support the Great Commission. For what it is worth – this is my results and they have not yet changed from what I can tell. The context was that of finding some of his disciples doubting. In response to this problem he told them to go. That is, that they would increase their faith by excercise. They would see God work in the lives of others. So – the purpose, in terms of their command to go, it seems to me was for the edification and health of the church that existed. Not for the church to grow – that was just a by-product of the activity locally and globaly (referenced in the text). God made the Christians, they would make disciples. Their individual faith would grow as well…first locally where it was and then greater as they went (as analogy..not that it is a purposed analogy…just using it here). It was personal intent…for His church…not for the lost.
Not an edict…not a great commission. God is self-sufficient, needing nothing. We need everything…air, water, sun, faith, Him.

Bruce Szwast September 15th, 2011

Two ostriches walk into this ‘raw oyster bar’ in Cocoa Beach see, and are offended by a group of gators and crocodiles debating if this is a Gator nation or a Seminole nation and degrades to a point where the debate is about whose tail tastes more like ‘chicken’.

Just then a flotilla of Somali pirates, being frustrated and chased by the US Navy, appears just beyond the surf and is heading for the oyster bar. The intellectual gators come up with a game plan and the ruff house crocks agree that ‘we have a plan’.

The gators bait the pirates towards the beach while the crocks submerge beneath the waves to attack the pirates from behind. After a terrific struggle, with many pirates walking the plank, the Coast Guard, National Guard, and police show up to finish the job.

The triumphant gators and crocks return to the bar and begin debating whether it was brains or brawn that won the victory.

And of course the two ostriches, with a lot of sand on their foreheads, also return to the bar, and discuss how grateful they were that someone took care of that problem.

Seriously gentlemen, we do need all kinds of people to fight a war. And we do need a plan and we do need to educate ourselves.

And our planning and education has to be based on the Scriptures, and unfortunately from some theology (we do need a cohesive understanding) and not from the funny papers, personal opinion, or the CBS Evening News.

Jesus speaking from John 17: 20.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21. that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23. I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Bill Chickering September 15th, 2011

That's funny, Bruce. You say we don't need personal opinion, yet most all that's on here is personal opinion, yours, mine, and others. And you're right, we probably, don't need cartoon characters. And we definitely don't need what passes for the news these days. We probably also don't need theology attached to another version of a "two guys walked into a bar" joke.

Most of the Jacks and Jills I know are working stiffs with kids and probably are just too damn tired to sit down at the end of the day and develop a cohesive understanding of theology. They're watching their wages get frozen, or in some cases even going backwards, while their expenses continue to rise. They're tired and beat. I can only imagine that when they walk throught the doors on Sunday morning that they want to hear the message of a simple Jewish carpenter who had a simple message. Some theology is fine, some theology. The message of Christ was simple–love me, love others, feed my sheep. Maybe developing a cohesive understanding or a deeper understanding of theology
might you feel more important or on top of things, but I don't think it adds a gnats worth of weight to the verses you quote above.

Mark Graham September 15th, 2011

True. I guess I can say that I completed 60 hours of graduate work at a major theological seminary. And I suppose I know a bit of this or that, a couple ancient languages (well, can read them), etc. What I do not recall from those years is any mention of the orphan or the widow. And there was one giant building with large shiny brass building name across the top of the pillars, 'The Center for the Great Commission Studies.' What impressed me most was courses of the Old Testament from a narrative perspective. This allows for a deeper view of the periscope in question in terms of context. A kind of contextual-theology. In the case of Matthew 28 I see no mention in the Greek of the 'great commission' and not context for an edict or command as such. Just Jesus telling the truth…and probably prophetic. Though not without its specific application in the moment to address the 'doubting.' So then – if the 'great commission' is a man-made construct (though well-meaning) it is hardly a good starting point from which to operate. Jesus is the appropriate starting point….and any venturing beyond. This is just to clarify . Personally, I believe this 'program' is misdirected….putting the cart before the horse. People running around like chickens aspiring to the approval of man and burdened with a completion of a 'task' they were not designed to accomplish. Evangelism is a team sport….everyone plays their position with Jesus. He makes touchdowns and scores points. For us…its just about more Jesus and really nothing else. Everything else takes care of itself – He is trustworthy. BUT as they say in Ukraine, "this is life." Some independent thinking is a good thing…freedom instead of bondage. There are traps with shackles all over the place.

Bruce Szwast September 16th, 2011

These three donkeys walk into a Church see, and hear a sermon that asks the question: what does it mean to glorify God and enjoy Him forever?

Afterwards, the three donkeys go down to the beach and swim out to a sand bar to discuss the answer to the question just posed to them.

When I listened to Tony a self proclaimed liberal whose theology says we should do this and do that for the poor without reservation, and then I hear Steve a self proclaimed Calvinist whose theology says that you are probably wasting your time (I would hope that Steve meant, there is a better way), I too get upset over theology.

Theology is what divides us. That is why I quoted John 17 concerning unity.

And when I quoted Matthew 28 about the Great Commission (not the SoSo Commission, that is as bad as the 10 Suggestions) my intent was to focus on the one thing that should unite us and motivate us. Now that is a good theology.

And I am a ‘working stiff’ also. I have been working for 50 years, not only to pay my bills and my taxes, but to help others to improve the quality of life in this country. And believe it or not, what happens in this country does not stay in this country, and what happens in the rest of the world, does not stay in the rest of the world.

The government we currently have is a liberal government, intent on giving to the poor without expecting any personal responsibility (also to stay in power). And there are many who want a Calvinist government that says ‘we got ours, let us keep it here’.

But as history has shown, if you have something materially good, then 'there are terrorists' who want to take it from you, and then we need war to defend ourselves. Borders and fences and oceans don’t work like they used to.

Jesus gave us the best defense, a good offense:
——–
Mt 28:18. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
——–
Ps Donkeys are interesting characters. One took Jesus to the place of His birth, and another took him to the place of His death. And of course, there is the one donkey that God spoke through to get Balaam to bless God’s people and not curse them.
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Numbers 24:
1. Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not resort to sorcery as at other times, but turned his face toward the desert.
2. When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him
3. and he uttered his oracle: "The oracle of Balaam son of Beor, the oracle of one whose eye sees clearly,
4. the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened:
5. "How beautiful are your tents, O Jacob, your dwelling places, O Israel!
6. "Like valleys they spread out, like gardens beside a river, like aloes planted by the LORD, like cedars beside the waters.
7. Water will flow from their buckets; their seed will have abundant water. "Their king will be greater than Agag; their kingdom will be exalted.
8. "God brought them out of Egypt; they have the strength of a wild ox. They devour hostile nations and break their bones in pieces; with their arrows they pierce them.
9. Like a lion they crouch and lie down, like a lioness–who dares to rouse them? "May those who bless you be blessed and those who curse you be cursed!"

Mark Graham September 16th, 2011

Bruce. From my experience – theology can never unify us. Only Jesus can. Theology divides us because it starts with man. Jesus unites us because of who he is and who we are in him. For me, I see no reason to divorce the verses of Mtthew sited above from their context. The context has Jesus and his authority as a basis for an 'individual' whom he has a relationship with (ie, the disciples) by which they can increase their faith (counter their doubt sited in the context of the text). The whole scene was very personal, and meant to be personal to us. The Great Commission then is a theology, a man-mad contruct, platform and program. Which is fine with me (it will always be here like Social Security…the desire for it being so strong – "hey, I paid into it – I expect my dividends!" And I would not call it a watered-down theology….but worse. Because it works to lead one away from the motivation of the cross, personal responsibility (turns it corporate instead), and enjoyment and fullfilment in their life in Christ and faith. As to the 'Chief end of man…" I come back to God being self-sufficient, needing nothing. Though we might bring him glory through Christ…he does not need it. Enjoy Him forever – that is the hope. I'm aware that we understand eachother completely…and spent quite some time on our conclusions regarding faith, theology, and the verse above. I am more than happy to be wrong in heaven though – and will buy you a beer when we get there to make up for my dribble.

Bruce Szwast September 17th, 2011

Thanks Mark I always look forward to a Newcastle after a tough struggle, especially with a friend. Maybe Bill will join us also.

And you are right, we were expressing the same thought in two different ways. Coming to a consensus is tough but we do or can learn from it.

I think my/our frustration comes from what we see as a world that is or still is in a state of chaos and is quickly heading for judgment, and contrary to some ‘theologies’, will drag us into the consequences of that judgment.

This is particularly true for Christians in other parts of the world who do not have our Constitutional protections (for now anyway) who suffer from oppressive and hostile forces.

As I look back on my life I remember a time when Christian thought, if not so visible, was at the center of daily life and resolving issues. I believe we all benefited from the saints of the past who founded churches, missions, universities, hospitals, and other social service agencies in the name of Christ.

Today, we cannot speak the name of God in many of these places. Of course the name of God has to be obliterated because of all the humanistic thought, procedures, and influence in those places.

I suppose a lot of the problem has come with the advent of mass media which is really controlling the agenda and promoting humanism or ‘life without God’. I do see some Christian mass media that claims Scriptural foundations, but it does not seem to have much Authority behind it.

This may be because of the lack of personal involvement in that media like we would have in a neighborhood Church. I am still looking for one. Maybe after I retire, I will start the 1st Arminian Church or 'Cooperative Grace to the hilt'.

I just cannot seem to stay out of trouble. And maybe some Scripture would be a good place to hide behind and maybe a better place to start:

Deut 28:

9. The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways.

10. Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you.

11. The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity–in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground–in the land he swore to your forefathers to give you.

12. The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.

13. The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.

14. Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.

15. However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

16. You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

Mark Graham September 17th, 2011

Good stuff Bruce. Thanks. I like the church names. One came to mind – Corporate American Community Church. With finance programs to teach how to spend money in order to persoanly avoid Jesus. Just give X-amount to some mission, local or otherwise and take the rest to party with your pagan neighbor like its 1999. I am thinking its all okay though, and expected. No clue why I have not been swept up in it all in depth…I think its because I don't have money is all. Jesus has got it and working, no problems. But like Paul was bothered by blindness in the Jews…I think we can get that way for our countrymen.

Dan September 17th, 2011

I like Tony Campolo and I think he has a lot of good things to say. I like what I've heard about Shane Claiborne too but after listening to much of what both of these two men have to say I still have the same question bouncing around inside me, "so, am I really free or not?". I'm told I'm far to black and white and that's probably true since it seems an inescapable condition of the simple minded. My point is that I see the same tendency for works playing out here and loading my backpack full of should-do's and ought-to's. I know it's very self focused of me and that I'm probably coming across as a real weeine but am I not free to be a weenie too? I had a not-yet-Christian friend challenge me the other day by asking me why I don't sell everything I have and give it too the poor…in essence to do it like Jesus and His disciples did. He said if I were really a Christian then that's what I SHOULD do. Well, I told him that Jesus made me free and that it's not about what I do or don't do it's about what He has done and continues to do in and through me. It's simple but I find that when God and I are close together in the center of my life, the action spokes in the wheel of my life work the way they're supposed to. When I start obsessing about one of my spokes the hub gets out of balance and then the rest is obvious. Do we have a responsibility to act? Sure, I think so but be ever vigilant that the works do not become the focus but rather a supernatural outpouring from Him. I don't know about you but I struggle with this alot.

Mark Graham September 17th, 2011

Takes one to know one. That is what I came to in response to the same question one day from a non-Christian friend. Came to that on reflection – not on time, sadly. But I'm ready for the next bozo that says that mess to me!

A non-Christian is arrogant enough to demand that his perception of Christianity be your standard for living?? And uses a Bible verse he does not understand?

You love that guy…your kicking but in the kingdom, my man! If you don't love that guy….makes sense. Try another day. You got eternity in the bag either way. Maybe that guy senses that…and doesn't want YOU to believe it. Not on purpose…but non-Christians have a father too.

Dallas Willard once said if he had one word to describe Jesus it would be…'relaxed'. So…relax. Jesus tells you to sell all your crap…you'll do it, trust me.

Bruce Szwast September 19th, 2011

Hello Dan. Did you have a good day off? Boy I did and I needed it. Was your pastor’s sermon,,, And thanks for bringing this conversation down to ground level where it belongs. Theory is one thing, but practice, practice, practice is what makes it all happen.

I also have a friend who comes up with those trick questions that makes me really scratch my head. And I like your answer, Jesus paid it all. Remember that Hymn?

But my friend is really sophisticated and is hostile to Jews and Christianity, and I do try to give him a deeper answer. Deeper answers satisfy my curiosity also.

My friend, out the proverbial blue, said to me that Joseph, a typical Jew, stole grain from the Egyptians and then a few years later sold it back to them at exorbitant prices. Of course my friend did not know the Scriptural story, just a perceived and targeted concept.

I think it was the Holy Spirit and maybe my faith in Joseph’s character, but I said to him “Joseph merely invented the grain futures market!” My friend is heavy into the Market and has made a lot of money off of others people’s mistakes. That sort of silenced the moment.

But later I decided to really investigate the story myself. What I found was that God used Joseph to preserve probably millions of lives during what sounds like one of the most severe famines of all time.

And Joseph’s basic plan was to gather up all available grain in times of plenty since basic human nature is not so practical. When the time came to ‘sell the grain’ to all, it was with the intent to teach basic human nature a lesson. In other words we all do need to learn personal responsibility.

Joseph’s actions also resulted in a basic model for human government. Eventually everything belonged to the state, the people worked the land, and paid twenty percent back to the government, to pay for things like infrastructure, police, fire, trash pickup, common defense and all that. All were allowed to prosper. And Israel sounds like they really did under Joseph’s leadership.

After Joseph’s death, an unscrupulous Pharaoh decided that those rich people in Goshen should be paying more of their fair share (and more for himself). He influenced public opinion with ideas like ‘separation of church and state’ and ‘class warfare’ and eventually sent the army to Goshen to confiscate their goods and turn the people into slaves.

I guess the rest is history, but I wonder if Goshen would have developed a standing army, they could have marched into Canaan and avoided all that pain and suffering. Oh basic human nature I suppose.

Anyway, I would question your friend about Chapter and Verse. My gut feel would be that if we all gave all we had to the poor, we would be the poor (and also our families) and we would be hoping and praying for the returned favor. Lots of luck with that one.

And other than the Rich Young Ruler, which was a targeted request toward an impossible response, I cannot think of a case where God actually says to give it all away, some for sure, but life and families are ongoing propositions.

And so is our mission to ‘go into all the world…’, even if it is next door, or even Washington, the court room, our school, our workplace, the driving range, whatever.

Bill Chickering September 19th, 2011

Been away from the computer all weekend. My, my, what a hodgepodge we have here. And, Bruce, thanks for the offer of the Newcastle. Since I'm a recovering alcoholic, I'd probably join you for a tonic water with lime, straight up. When it comes to taking Tony or Steve's position, I'm with Tony. Sure, some will be irresponsible, but does that mean we have to conduct something like a "Poor Person Responsibility Litmus Test" before we do anything? That's ridiculous. Jesus did not say to help the poor, heal the sick, visit those in prison, and make sure you only help those who behave responsibly. If he gave a disclaimer in , I haven't heard it.

And I've been out there working for 46 years, so don't give me that I've been out there for 50 years stuff. It's wasted on me. You go out there and do it. You don't say "Well, Jesus said 'the poor you will always have with you' " and then sit on your ass.

Bruce Szwast September 22nd, 2011

When you want to ‘raise the bar’ concerning a conversation, it is appropriate to attempt to be thoughtful.

Bill, I have been thinking about your last comments, but as a ‘working stiff’ I did not want too much distraction from ‘my life’s calling’ from God. I also have been thinking that I can celebrate an occasion with a real coffee.

And since I have four years seniority, I feel it is appropriate to ‘raise the bar’ a bit more.

You know, my early exposure to John Calvin’s writings concerned his views on ‘our work’ in society and how as Christians we should be ‘good citizens’. Of course he was commenting on Paul’s writings about these things. Things like praying for those in authority and submitting to those authorities except when they violate the Word of God.

A lot of that happening lately, don’t you think? Vote, vote, vote.

Another exposure I had to John Calvin concerned his commentary on Romans, and in particular Romans 9. He was writing as he thought and read and when he got to Jacob and Esau and then Moses and Pharaoh, John sort of reluctantly said “everything must be God’s will”.

I read somewhere, I know secular history is prone to error, but the first commentary printed of John Calvin’s was his commentary on Romans. Yipes, if that is true, what a dumb place to start.

If they had started in the Beginning (go for it Hugh, Gen 1 that is), and helped us to understand the story behind the story, things may have turned out a lot differently. I know, above my pay grade.

But, maybe that is where we get the idea ‘that God is responsible for everything’, and we kind of get ineffective. The contrast here would be to cite a quote from a liberal lady co-worker: “Jesus was a liberal, and we should try and do everything even if it does not work, Jesus may be watching us”. Good grief.

We know that Jesus is watching us, and I believe we could please Him most by being scripturally thoughtful as we go through our activities, interactions, and even our ‘life’s calling’.

Could I tell another donkey story? Good.

On judgment day, all us donkeys were standing in line waiting for our interview with Jesus. We could see some of those ahead of us going one way with sad faces mumbling “I never knew you?”, and then see some others go the other way jumping and leaping for joy.

As we are waiting our turn, we are all thinking of all the jackass things we said and did, but then we try to think of all the burdens we carried for Jesus.

When it is our turn, oh my, we look into His face with indescribable feelings, and He says to us “Did you love me?” And we blurt out “YES”.

And Jesus says, “Well done good and faithful servant”. Amen and Amen.

Bill Chickering September 22nd, 2011

Yes, Bruce, I drink real coffee. Lots of it. I think your liberal coworker friend might have phrased thiings differently by saying "we should do what we can. Some of it might fail." And another thing–chalk me up as one of those people who is tired of hearing the word liberal being used as a borderline swear word in commentaries and in the media.

I think also of a comment I heard Tony Campolo make some years ago when speaking of Mother Theresa and her work. I obviously don't have it word for word, but it went something like,"People come up to me and say, but Tony not everyone can do what a Mother Theresa does." And Campolo replied, "You know, that's not a bad idea." I agree with him. Jesus said if someone asks you to go one mile with him, go the extra one. If a man asks for your coat, give him your cloak also. This is very radical stuff, which is why most people, myself included, don't get anywhere near it. It's too damn hard. And it's just as much a command as anything else Jesus said.

And please accept my apology for getting a bit testy. But please, don't use that "above my pay grade." My testy comment in my previous post had nothing to do with that at all.

Bruce Szwast September 22nd, 2011

Thanks Bill and sorry for all the historical and theological info, I guess it fascinates my worldview. I am wierd that way.

And sorry for the cliche, but it has been a long time since I had a raise. Erik gets them all the time.

And 'liberal' has and still can mean a good thing.

But I will not apologize for my scripture references, maybe for my attempts at parables though. Jesus did it best.

Back to work here, and take care.