joshua potter October 1st, 2009

I read this article last night and got very agitated about the yuppie christian comments and how yuppie christian parents realized it was a load of crap. Then it proceeded to say that I am not knocking biblical christianity but, …..but rather the pretty, shiny Churchianity where all questions are answered, every conflict ends in an altar call, everyone votes Republican, and y’all live your Best Life Now. Those two shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath. It's either christianity or it's not. Now, at that time before I got comments that Susan was talking about the prosperity gospel, which I don't know what part of that talks about voting republican, and where all questions are answered. I think there were some broad strokes which I commented about on my blog in response to two comments people left me. So going back and reading the rest of the article for the second part, I can agree with what Susan says, just didn't think the first part was necessary or even correct, but that's my opinion. The reason this is so frustrating to me is because this could have been a great thoughtful article without the jabs at yuppie christians and their parents as well as the biblical christianity compared to prosperity gospel which wasn't even a great analysis of that, so that is what I commented on. Some things are just better left unsaid. Maybe "there were some things I misunderstood that were being taught in the church or things that were being taught in the church that were mistaught rather than the way it was done. That is what I was referring to. We all do it. It's the whole going off on someone for what they did wrong, while we are doing something wrong in our approach as well. I am guilty. God bless

Susan October 1st, 2009

Joshua: I know what it's like to read something quickly and get upset, which prompted you to flame me on twitter. I get it. You're a pastor and you're sick of people trashing the church. I am totally with you. But I think you probably are accustomed to reading criticisms of the church and you read those comments in a literalist way; where I wrote that string for comedic effect. Maybe the Republican line was a bad choice: But that was me: I was that yuppie christian who thought everything was going to end happily and who voted republican and was waiting for my best life now. If you want to defend simplistic Christianity then go ahead and get mad. But I don't think that's really what's in your heart.

I would disagree with your statement, that "some things are better left unsaid." I think that it's only by speaking out we get to see where we are wrong and where others are right. And vice versa. I appreciate you taking the time to write back. And it's OK if you blocked me on twitter. I have nothing against you and I am glad you care so much about the church.

Greg Wilson October 4th, 2009

Very few things are best left unsaid, at least when it comes to evaluating the church. As a former pastor who came out of the Jesus Movement and has thus witnessed most of the varieties of church growth over the past 35 years or so, I obviously have a take on all of this. First, nobody has reached church nirvana yet, nobody has gotten it all right. There are manifestations in all the Christian traditions which bring something to the table, but most keep their piece of the puzzle spiritually copyrighted, thus bringing into question anyone who wants to take the enthusiasm of the Pentecostals into the same room as the bookish approach of the Reformed churches or even the more iconoclastic Orthodox. Not that nobody has tried, but no one has figured out how to get long-term traction from any movement which is hard to define. My experience has been that while we have all come a long way in attempting to do a better job of at least acknowledging the need for meeting the physical needs of those who hurt, there is still far to much use of fear and manipulation going on in our churches. Factor in we are dealing with a human institution which has been trying to self destruct for 2,000 years, and you still have a strange stew brewing as far as those who are either outside the fold or who have been wounded in some way by those of us in the fold are concerned. Whether we package it in a liturgical robe, sharkskin suit and silk necktie, or a uber-hip pair of jeans and t-shirt, the message is still being tossed out there. Some of it sticks and some of it does not, but a lot of that is really not up to us if it is delivered in a place of love and safety where people are not afraid to voice their concerns and questions, and are connected in some way beyond doing something for the church. Over the years I have interviewed the big boys in this, including Willow and Saddleback, and the leadership agreed that finding ways for this authentic connection remains elusive to any formula. Home groups wax and wane, occasionally finding some connection, but more often not. Other forms of ministry, segregated by sex, age, addiction, marital status, etc, all offer a long of front doors to churches that have vast resources, but early reports are not great, though granted it is a bit soon to make a final judgment. I find great hope in Bill Hybels' public declaration, which he boldly called repentance, that despite all their programs and vision casting, that Willow had failed to "teach their people to feed themselves," a courageous statement given Willow likely had done more to engage and educate their congregation than any other anywhere near its size. I suppose we all continue to wrestle with the Great Commission. Evangelicals by and large see it as "get people saved and let God do the rest." That approach manifests itself in Sunday services aimed mostly at producing "decisions to follow Christ" and/or baptisms. Not a bad goal, but it seems to leave a awful lot of folks who hear such a message and respond stranded in a new wilderness, one where they are not supposed to be children of God but have no clue what to do when the world around them does not exactly applaud or embrace their new worldview. Sadly many will pretty much blindly follow and believe any teacher/leader who says they are Christian and either never get past that stage or give up altogether. Across the spectrum I have witnessed varying forms of subtle manipulation which is tacitly teaching works salvation. All of us share the blame, from old Jesus freaks to brillcream prophets to priests to the cool preacher de jeur. It has to be either all grace or no grace. If it has a hook in it, it is bait not grace. Susan has experienced some of this Joshua, and as a church leader you don't have to buy into all of her conclusions but know they are authentic and that she is no where near alone in her views. This is already too long, so I will stop.