Charles Curtis May 21st, 2008

For here and Europe, I don't think those books are as prophetic as Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, anything by Sinclair Lewis or even movies like For Your Consideration. Unlike other parts of the world, we are ruled by the tyranny of the majority, rather than the tyranny of a military leader, Mullah or gangsta.

Speaking of Aldous, I think these quotes by him are far more relevant than Orwell's:

"An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex."

"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted."

"Death … It’s the only thing we haven’t succeeded in completely vulgarizing."

The way to control us is not through force, but through our bellies. You give us more goodies and we'll bark, roll over and fetch all day long and believe nearly anything you tell us. I heard on the news the other day that the effect global warming has had on polar bears has caused gas prices to rise, case in point.

Not that I am into the conspiracy stuff too much, but being from the Midwest, I do remember television reporters interviewing people on the street about the hold up in Waco back in 1993. Nearly all of them were tired of watching and hearing about the nearly 3 month old drama and ready for it to end. It was annoying to most. They got their wish. It seemed as if the Justice Department heard our cries and acted accordingly. What the people interviewed failed to realize is that the person asking them the question was more responsible for the media deluge, than the people held up in the compound who ended up dead.

I don't see a fear of 1984 coming about, but more of Huxley's view of the future. Big corporations are in control, but only because they crank out stuff for us to consume. If they didn't keep doing that, they would vanish. We would see to it. The Romans had bread and circuses. Things really haven't changed much.

Thomas May 21st, 2008

My uncle is a retired army capt. and upon retirement went on to a successful career in the oil industry and worked in Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries.. I never thought much of his career choice until this whole fiasco jumped off in Iraq and upon closer inspection realized that many former officers are working for multinational corporations that usually center around those countries natural resources. The reality is many wars and foreign policies that provoke such wars, are shaped by these "corporate warriors" who have close ties to our department of defense, executive branch and congress. I think if you look at Cofer Black who runs Blackwater (a military contracting firm in Iraq) security and look at his resume, you will understand what I mean. When I talk to fellow Christians about this kind of institutional depravity the general reaction is disbelief and I'm usually looked at as a conspiritoriolist. I think American Christians are susceptible to being naive when it comes to corruption at the government level. The reasons are numerous but I'll just narrow it to two. 1) We have a "manifest destiny" outlook when it comes to our national role in the world and therefore we think we are Gods right hand when dispensing democracy and justice to third world "barbaric" countries. 2) We think corruption and evil only come from one party (democrats, liberals) and the left wing supreme court ( we need an Republican in office to appoint a conservative to overturn roe vs. wade by golly! ) Because of these two very narrow reasons we lose our salt and distinctiveness and we end up sounding like unsaved mid westerners. Our Christian world views are so diluted that we cannot distinguish between nationalist, patriotic fervor or fear and insecurity. As a result of our mindsets we are prime pickings for Big brother - or how about calling him "the world". We need a Kingdom ethic that is dominated by love to re orientate our thinking and give us the mind of Christ. This is the only way we can see our country for what it is and be of any use…. Big props to Steve Brown for having the moral courage to create the platform for a rarely discussed issue!!

Charles Curtis May 22nd, 2008

I agree that Christians are naive, but that means we are just like everybody else. People are well fed, comfortable and very naive….me included. The problem isn't so much our naivete but the fact you can't tell the difference.

I agree with the points about big corporations too. But they were given and are given power by us. We vote with our disposable income. I think we stopped being a savings country and began being a debt country around the early to mid 1970's.

Your points about Christians being about manifest destiny and one party over the other….true…but again, liberals are no different. If I go to a conservative SBC church and say that I don't believe in the Trinity (I do, btw), someone would ask me to leave because a command to 'come out and be separate' from my likes. If I move on down the road to the UCC Sunday School service and say I do believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, I will get similar treatment with different excuses.

It's too easy to buy into the media fed belief that the problem is one political worldview over and against another. That's a lie. We are all pretty messed up. For every Hannity there is a Combs. For every Ted Nugent, there is a Whoopi Goldberg. And we all watch and believe that we have to decide to be crips or bloods

I don't agree with manifest destiny. That is an old idea. Powers in control realized that real estate doesn't have to be invaded in order to be exploited. Just look at how we dealt with Iraq prior to the invasion.

Thomas May 22nd, 2008

Charles I'm not going to even try to convince you that your position is wrong but I want to just respond to two aspects of your critique. I pulled the definition of manifest destiny from the Internet and hear it is" A policy of imperialistic expansion defended as necessary or benevolent".
" Manifest Destiny The 19th-century doctrine that the United States had the right and duty to expand throughout the North American continent" I think the IDEA of manifest destiny is absolutely applicable, even in the case of the Iraqi invasion… Secondly, you don't know me or where I come from so for you to make the assessment that I have always been well fed and comfortable as you put it, borders on typical American know it all hubris. As typified by your post you are only aware of your own context and you think that all others must fall in line with your perspectives. But guess what? There's a big world out there and your just a small part of it… My original post was not in any way meant as a critique of your post I was just voicing my opinion, so let's just let it end right here and not go back and forth.

Charles Curtis May 27th, 2008

I'm a last word freak, so….:)

That wasn't aimed at you personally…it simply describes nearly all of us in the US. We are the richest, most well fed and entertained people in the cosmos. It wasn't meant to be a personal description of you.

Sorry it sounded too contrare. My main point is that the conservative-liberal political positions in the country are skewed, not meant to provide truth, but to support the party. Watch Hannity and Combs ….you will probably never get down to reality, but watch a boxing match between two political lackeys, with expensive advertising for Viagra and XBOX in between (pick any news channel–not picking on FOX).

Manifest destiny isn't just a white man's desire, but a desire shared by nearly all races and cultures, at one time or another. History of Native Americans reveal this to be the case. After all, what was the cause of wars between Algonquins and Powhatans…or between any other tribes, but property, expansion and control? Look up Captian Phillip's War as a case in point. Check out history of Islam to see imperialism at its best. Also, consider tribal conflicts in Africa throughout the 20th century.

Our history is stained with blood too. My point is that it is really naive to think this is a white Christian issue.

As far as Iraq, Carter, Reagan, Bush I and Clinton exploited Iraq as well. And the exploitation was mutual. My view is that an organized government older than 10 minutes old, is corrupt and capable of whatever it can get away with. But what alternative do we have? We can vote, but historically, ~92% of incumbents get relelected. We have the power to 'throw out the rascals' as was the cry in 1824….but somehow, we must like the rascals…on both sides of the aisle.

Charles May 27th, 2008

….and my personal opinion is that manifest destiny, whether it was Creeks, Algonquins, Arabs or Americans is wrong. After all that, I never really came out with my view of the topic.

But manifest destiny isn't just real estate. It's also a desire to expand and control assets, information, beliefs, etc. You can 'own' a country and never set a single troop across the border.

Ok, that's all. Again, not meaning any of this about you personally. I am opinionated

Thomas May 27th, 2008

My beef is not so much with the unsaved liberals, republicans and the like, it's with Christians who buy into worldviews that are so un-Christian (manifest destiny) and think that it somehow has Christian connotations- now to me that is the epitome of being naive, but after all Jesus did use the adjective 'sheep' to describe us!….. Also you use a scarecrow method in your argument by using other nationalities and political parties who have propagated a manifest idea. They are not who we were talking about, of course the unregenerate are going to implement a 'will to power' there not saved! White Christians need to man up and stop crying about other people groups and the dirt that they indulge in, and just focus on themselves. Getting back to the Orwell deal, I just think it's important to have a strong Christological theology that is others centered if we are to survive as a Church in a time of economical and societal crisis. If not we could very well end up like the Church in Germany during WW2… The protestant church was weak and ineffective because they did not acknowledge any of the evil that the nazi regime engaged in. The Church, focused on the business of the Church and considered the killing of Jews and other minorities a political issue that was none of their business. I personally think that the American Church is so co-opted by both political parties that if something were to jump off here in America we will enthusiastically help the government achieve it's aims.

Charles May 28th, 2008

Very true.

I have a theory that goes back to our 'humble' beginnings….we have Unitarians and Universalists because we had Puritans. The Massachusetts Bay Colony was a nightmare for anyone who looked, spoke or thought with any deviation from either the Westminster Confession or John Winthrop's POV (Winthrop as a proto-type to Big Brother). Homes were burned, ears cut off and nailed up for public view, drownings, hangings, stillborns dug up and described as demonic half-breeds. We saw a mass exodus away from Biblical Christianity because of Biblical Christians who thought they were very conservative but were acting as distant from Scripture as they possibly could.

Even though Reverend Big Brother has been softened by the heretics of history (Unitarians, universalists, etc.) and doesn't lop off ears or drown anymore, he or she still attacks from the same state of the heart….and are the true theological liberals and heretics of our age. (Matthew 5:21-24, Luke 14:25-38, John 13)