Sean from Michigan October 29th, 2007

There is certainly a catholic church. You can find Christians in communist China, so I suspect you can find them in Texas, too. Just kidding. Your point is well made and appreciated. However, I still disagree with Osteen.

Free in Christ,
Sean

Paul K October 29th, 2007

You know it my brother! Hey, I'm glad the church is so screwed up…or I'd be all alone!

You know how polished people have a way of making others uncomfortable? I don't think Jesus was polished. He made screwed up people feel loved and valuable. Screwed up people should fit right in at His house.

And you know what? It is only screwed up people that have been able to minister grace to me and only screwed up people that have enabled me to minister to others. Steve, you mentioned the joy of hearing from Erik those beautiful words "You too?" Nothing can touch the soul like a soul that has similarly touched.

Doesn't the scripture say that "By His wounds we are healed.."? Well, we are his body and it is by the woundedness of His body that we are healed. Thank God for the broken, the sinful, and the needy in the church!

And He called us "the light of the world." Unbelievable.

Christov October 29th, 2007

Nah, Steve, you're not crazy. I think you're right on.

But you guys are still wrong about one thing, and you've improperly emphasized another. You are the cool kids, and worst thing about Piper is he cannot write a readable sentence.

One thing I'll ask you, what about the laity?

Church R Us « re-dreaming the dream October 30th, 2007

[…] much mirrors the podcast. I sincerely hope that you will take advantage of both the entire post (here) and the podcast (here). Okay, now let me tell you what I said at the seminary the other night. You […]

MikeMcK October 30th, 2007

I believe that we should love Tony Campolo and Joel Osteen, but is it really loving to turn a blind eye at their sin and their heresy?

In the Bible (you do remember the Bible, don't you, Steve?), we're told that if we support false teachers, then God will consider us "partakers with them in their evil deeds".

And yet, you want us to welcome these wolves in with open arms.

Steve, you claim to love Tony Campolo. When was the last time you pleaded with him to repent and put his faith in Christ alone and His atonement on the cross alone, for his salvation?

When was the last time you wept over the countless people who are going to Hell because Joel Osteen withheld the Biblical Gospel from them, preferring, instead, to teach the Gospel of "me-ism"?

Do you plead with sinners to repent before they stand before God to face His wrath? Or do you encourage them to further incur His wrath by offering them "three free sins"?

As offensive as it may be to your emergent chuch sensibilities, the church is for the body of Christ, not the unsaved. It is for those who hold to sound Biblical doctrine, not false teachers.

Those false teachers who refuse to repent should be run out of the church on a rail.

And those who are living a lifestyle of sin should be counseled and given a chance to repent. If they don't, then they need to be put out of the church, not only for their own good, but so that their lifestyle of disobedience does not cause weaker brothers and sisters to stumble.

Sean from Michigan October 31st, 2007

I am a business man. Yesterday, I traveled for 6 hours with a Chinese communist. I witnessed Christ to her. Perhaps you could call her a humanist. She wants good things to happen to people and to the world. She thinks we should try our best to always do what is good for humankind. She sounds like a caring and decent person. But, she says there is no way she could ever believe in God, let alone Jesus Christ. She does not care what may happen when she dies and has no idea why anyone would believe in Christ. She thinks it's OK to believe in God, since it can help humankind and there are a lot of "nice" Christians. AND! She thinks Osteen is pretty nice and she likes listening to him. What's with that? Is it because he does NOT mention Christ much, or is Osteen being used by the Holy Spirit to get to people who are humanist? Which is it?

MikeMcK October 31st, 2007

Given what Jesus said in John 3 about sinners and how they rebel against the light of the Gospel, I'd have to say that it's probably because she knows when she hears him that she's not going to come under any kind of conviction.

I don't see how Osteen can "reach" people for Christ, when he won't preach the Gospel.

He has this personality cult that follows him around because he makes them feel good by telling them what they want to hear.

All he does is to tell a couple of folksy stories and spout a couple of bumper sticker phrases and they're hooked.

The "this is my Bible" thing is particularly annoying. The Bible is not a self help book or a life enhancement program.

It isn't a means to an Earthly end, but is God's holy word and should be revered as such.

I know that a lot of the liberals here (which, from what I read on the message boards is pretty much everybody) will be horrified at this but, in my church, we actually stand out of respect when the Bible is read because it is the word of God.

Osteen and the others like him will have their place along with the rest of the false teachers when Jesus comes back.

dynamicjim November 1st, 2007

Steve,
If I understand what you are saying, your point is not that you agree with or support the "false teachers" among us, as MikeMck suggests, but that you love them in the sense that Christ loves and wants to see them come to a full understanding of the Gospel and that your heart aches for those who don't have that understanding. Is this correct? If so, then you ARE a spiritual giant, because I get really hacked and judgemental towards such people. The fine line seems to be do we love those who are lost, yet think they are found, or do we exercise sound judgement on those within the church who teach false doctrine? That having been said, if we tossed all who the teachers, leaders, and preachers who live it differently than they teach, we would be a memberless church. As I understand grace, it is not about performance, but desire. A desire to please The Savior, regardless of how poorly we do it. Seems to me it is not up to us, but "He who began a good work will see it to completion." No, this is not license to give up our desire, only our pathetic attempts at doing it on our own, under our own strength. We work out, not for our salvation. Finding the balance between loving the lost among our ranks and judging those within the church is not easy, but I know my heart could use a bigger dose of love and grace for others. Keep encouraging others to exercise that kind of love and grace - I need to hear it often! By the way, can I have some more free sins - I am overdrawn, and need to hack off a few more people! Be sure to keep some for yourself!

MikeMcK November 1st, 2007

Jim, Jesus does love the false teacher and the unrepentant sinner. However, His love for them doesn't negate His command to remove them from the church.

And, for the record, those "three free sins" aren't free at all. They cost the Son of God His life.

thatagirl November 1st, 2007

Yes, the "three free sins" weren't free for the Son of God, who by the way, you are not. They were free for us. So let's lighten up a little.

MikeMcK November 1st, 2007

No, I'm not the Son of God, but I am a son of God and I don't take what it cost to make me a son of God lightly.

You say "lighten up" as if sin is a trivial thing. Do you really not realize how serious the Bible says sin is?

Erik November 2nd, 2007

Mike,

Do you sin? I bet you have a secret…or two.

MikeMcK November 2nd, 2007

Yes, I sin.

We all sin. That doesn't mean that we should take sin lightly or be frivolous about it.

Erik November 2nd, 2007

If you sin, you're the one who is taking sin lightly.

How could you willingly disobey after the great price Jesus paid for your sin? God must be really mad at you for choosing to heap more sin on Jesus and increasing his pain on the cross.

Maybe if you go around talking about how mad God is about sin, he won't be as ticked at you for being a sinner. Then, in some small humble way, you can pay for your own sins instead of having Jesus do it for you.

Who needs Jesus when you can do all the great work you're doing for him on our website?

Mark November 2nd, 2007

I believe sin is very serious. I think God's Grace made manifest through the atoning work of Jesus on the cross is bigger than my sin. It doesn't excuse my sin, and it doesn't completly stop me from sinning. Jesus' work on the cross just gives me something much bigger to look at than myself and my foolish sins - Him and His perfect love. I'm far from perfect and screw it up more times than I seem to get it right. I just know that when I am focused on Jesus, the sin in my life that I struggle with seems a whole lot smaller. However, when I focus on my sin (by trying to get it right and not sin), I fall flat on my face time and time again.

MikeMcK November 2nd, 2007

So, Erik, are you always this snotty?

I would think that somebody telling me how uptight and judgemental I am would be a little more Christlike.

MikeMcK November 2nd, 2007

Mark, how do you strive for holiness in your life?

Erik November 2nd, 2007

Your attempt to make me feel guilty won't work.

I never claimed to be perfect, just loved by God despite my admitted imperfections. That's all any of us sinners have, the righteousness of Christ in exchange for "snotty."

You on the other hand are a self-righteous hypocrite, always talking about how serious sin is while sinning right in God's face.

You get on here and tell people to repent, while you're the one in need of repentance.

I've repented of my sin. You're so blind by your self-righteousness that you don't even know how "snotty" you are.

But in the spirit of this post, I will say this… I love you as a member of the body of Christ…even if that member is the ass.

MikeMcK November 2nd, 2007

Wow. I guess I struck more of a nerve than I realized. What a wonderful representative you are for Steve Brown.

I'm praying for you, Erik. God will take that hostility away if you'll ask Him to.

Erik November 2nd, 2007

And I pray he'll take away your passive aggressiveness and self-righteousness.

Erik November 2nd, 2007

See, now we're having church. We're praying for each other. This is good. Next step, maybe you'll even get saved Mike!

MikeMcK November 2nd, 2007

Erik, I know that it's a common tactic among liberals to try to demonize their enemies by name calling and false accusations, but nothing I've said here is "self-righteous".

I've been very clear that my righteousness doesn't come from anything I've done, but only by what Christ has done on my behalf and the righteousness that God has graciously imputed to me.

I'm glad that you're praying, but before you pray for me, I think maybe you should spend a little time asking if the way you're treating me is consistent with the attitude you want to take before the Lord.

Cathy Wyatt November 2nd, 2007

Wow!!

I'm sort of overwhelmed reading your comments on Church R Us!!
Seems to me like you are having trouble accepting God's forgiveness at face value without attaching some strings, Mike! It's sort of like if you keep trying harder to be more sorry for your sins, God will forgive you more and better. Wouldn't that make your forgiveness dependent on you? If Jesus' death really was the ultimate sacrifice for sin, and it was; and God really does see us through the blood of His Son and He does, then we're accepted! It's not about us or anything that we do! That's pretty amazing stuff!!!

Erik November 2nd, 2007

It's all before the Lord sweetheart.

greg from canada November 2nd, 2007

I am kind of confused by you Mike. You say you have been listening to Steve for 15 years and it seems from the posts you dont agree with anything he says. I wonder why you have listened this long, unless you havent had your ears open while you were listening. It seems to be the same on this web site, it seems you look at the titles but dont read the content.

Steves explaination of the 3 free sins explains everything. He isnt taking sin lightly. Jesus has given us unlimited free sins really, every sin we will ever do has been forgiven. He has paid the price. We no longer have to go to the temple to sacrifice an animal to atone for our sin. He was the perfect sacrifice, and becasue he loved us so much its free to us for all who believe. We are flawed individuals who can never be perfect and will sin. God knows that, thats why he sent Jesus to die on the cross. The 3 free sins is a time to reflect on what Jesus has done for us, thank him for dying for us, reflect on Gods love for us. The idea is to do this every time you sin. So that you become more focused on God. Have a closer relationship with him. While doing this you will sin less since you become closer to God.

George November 2nd, 2007

Mike,

Jesus said in John 8:7 "…If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

I think that is the point. None of us are without sin. We are all under the love and grace of God. Let's all take a lesson from Galatians 6:1-5

Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.

and John 13:34-35
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Love supports, encourages and restores gently. We all still sin. If we get caught up in the trap of "being perfect" by men's standards then we are under the law again.

Mark November 2nd, 2007

Prayer and understanding the scriptures have helped me shoot for holiness, but holiness is a tricky thing. On one hand, I have already been made perfect (sanctified) and completely holy by Jesus. So in that respect, I can never be a more holy saint than I am right now. On the other hand, the bible is pretty clear that holiness is something that a Christian still needs to strive for, and a simple introspective look at myself tells me that in many ways, I am not holy. I struggle with sin. But the best thing that has happened to me in my life's struggle toward holiness is the realization and understanding that God will never pull away his Son from me. He's not out to get me. Because of the cross, he will never be angry. If I never get any "better" than I am today, God will still love me as much as ever.

Understanding that has been instrumental in helping me to grow closer to Jesus. My problem before was that I was so inwardly focused on trying to get it right, I never looked up to Him. It is His Grace that has sanctified me; and His Grace continues to sanctify me.

George November 2nd, 2007

Mark,

I agree. When I came to the point that I realized that I could never live up to God's standards was when I started to experience God's love and grace. The next step was to realize that God did not expect me to be perfect and still loved me when I wasn't perfect (which is most of the time).

That love motivated me to love God more and to want to please him with my life. I love the "3 free sins" because it flys in the face of the belief that "I must be perfect for God to accept me" thinking.

When we realize that we are ALL as sick and depraved and wrong as Campolo, Osteen, Bakker, Erik, and ME (who is chief among sinners), then we can relax, crawl in Gods lap and let Him love us and in turn love and encourage and support each other as brothers and sister in Christ.

G-Rock November 2nd, 2007

sounds like the "doctrinally correct" visitor here has been a student of kirk cameron's "way of the master" program (i.e. "the cult of mike seaver")..

kirk would be proud!

Mark November 2nd, 2007

Show me that smile again…

G-Rock November 2nd, 2007

"Show me that smile again…"

mark i believe the theme song now starts off with, "show me that tract againnnnn…."

Casey November 2nd, 2007

Just wanted to say I love Steve and this post rocked my world.

Daniel November 2nd, 2007

God stuff, I think the comments on this post exemplify exactly what Steve's original post said….we are the church (assuming all who have posted on here are saved)…so no we shouldn't take sin lightly we shouldn't focus on that…that is just another form of self-righteousness…if we focus on Him and His work we wouldn't have time to worry about sin…Martin luther said to "Sin Boldly", or like erik said by sinning we are taking it lightly (That was good). Essentialy we are going to sin, which is why we need a messiah, so instead of focusing on the inevitable, we should focus on God. What is the saying…doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity…

Daniel November 2nd, 2007

that should have been "good" stuff, but God stuff works too I guess…

STEVE PACIELLO November 2nd, 2007

It is amazing how many different views christians have. I think God must chuckle. None of us have all the answers. In fact about the only thing God made completely clear in his word is that no one can be saved apart from Christ.

Walking in love is probably still the best way to go about it.
Love never fails. We need each other but Christ most of all.

Charles November 5th, 2007

Absolutely wonderful article!

Sometimes I eschew the J. MacArthur's till I am confronted by a charismatic that chaps my hide. Then I decide to eschew those who believe Christianity means taking your head off and laying on a hat rack, till I am confronted by an Christian apologist who's a rude idiot. I rant against 'seeker sensitive emergents' till I read a terrible, scathing article from an idiot brother or sister who can't seem to think for themselves.

All of it to show inner parts of my own heart I would never have ventured till I was challenged both God placing someone else in my path or me in theirs. Also, it's a hard lesson about who I should really follow and trust. Seems like there is nobody out there who's a safe harbor to latch onto….actually there is One but old habits die hard and if they talk and walk Christianese, they are idol potential.

Since we are getting honest…I believe alot of us talk about "The Gospel" as something better than chocolate cake…but deep down, pretend it is better and aren't really that sure what's so good about it and desparately afraid to ask or to be discovered. I think those are the ones that make the obscene noises during prayer when someone hits a high note, or when someone talks about a great song or book and annoyingly reminded about Jesus and the Bible, as if it somehow went off the radar screen.

That was me til recently. It is good. Actually, it is much better than chocolate cake….but I found out through alot of pain, rather than a great seminary class or some syndicated Pastoral ministry. I found the good of Him through embarrasment, humiliation, disappointment and loss.

Go figure.

But everytime I meet someone who always has to plug another "Gospel is so needed…" speech, I pray that they get knocked down to realize what they are saying is actually more true than words can communicate. I would prefer to just tell them but unfortunately, from my own experience, I couldn't be taught any other way. When the options to go hard or easy are available, my nature is for it always to go hard.

After spending enough time with family, I realize I am far from being alone in that regard.

Daniel November 5th, 2007

Amen charles…so true

mybigGod November 6th, 2007

It is what it is, either these things are regulated or not, its not for us to decide. We just a messenger.

eva November 6th, 2007

I am so thankfull that Jesus is the judge and not me. I want to know the truth, I seek the truth. But honestly, this is one messed up church and I am so glad that HE is in charge. He will reign, he will be on the throne and he will judge. He knows our hearts. We do all sin, but as he asked Peter, "Do you love me?", I have to always ask that of myself. Are all of my actions and words coming out of my love for Christ? I must be a truth seeker and a lover, and let Him be the judge.

Charles November 6th, 2007

Christians are like people with pneumonia. There are those who pretend to be well and refuse treatment (and die) and those who recognize it and seek out healing. Unfortunately, the former always try to treat the latter, which makes Christian life a tragic comedy.

Maybe God has Wes Anderson's sense of humor? It's better to laugh about it to keep from letting the contempt at bay.

Charles November 6th, 2007

"keeping the contempt at bay…"

Sorry…

Roxanne November 6th, 2007

I echo the previous sentiment…WOW!
Reading all these comments nearly gave me hives. I can't believe that we are so vehement about hitting each other over the head to make our point. No wonder unbelievers run the other way when they see how we act–half the time I don't want to be a part of the church myself!
I am thankful God is the one who is in charge of choosing who He wants as His own…I know I wouldn't stand a chance if some of my brothers and sisters were in charge (and to be honest, I'd probably leave a few people out in the cold if I were in the one in charge, so it's good that I wasn't appointed)

I loved the post Steve, as always you speak to my heart and help me stand up a little straigher while you remind me that I too 'do it with dirty fingers' (yep, just listened to the part 2 in the Esther series)

Renee November 9th, 2007

I love this!!! Yes, we are to love, and , we can't unless He helps us.
my sin is my sin, yours is yours, but , in the end, love covers all (for those who are in Christ Jesus)..does that mean I do not love those who don't YET know Him? I hope and pray not. I would love to be able to see others as He sees them. There are no US/THEM..llet's look at "them" as soon or going to be eventually, "us"! Halleluia!

Daniel November 9th, 2007

is it me or did half of this thread disappear?

George November 9th, 2007

Renne,

Good point. God's love covers our sin. Not his anger.

Jason November 9th, 2007

I don't really understand the whole "don't focus on sin, focus on God" thing. Maybe I'm just not there yet. How would we know what sin is apart from the Law God gave us? While that Law does not bring us any closer to God, it is a reflection of His perfect love. Remember, God's Law did in fact come from God.

Think for a moment about the 10 commandments, for example. When you break one, someone else is hurt. God's law is good, as is stated in both Old and New Testaments. I can't willing hurt someone (myself included) and then claim to be focusing on God…

At any rate, I heard Steve preach at Perimeter Church in ATL. He is amazing and I know God is using him. Thanks for getting us all to use our heads a little bit!

Erik November 9th, 2007

is it me or did half of this thread disappear?

The comments or the post?

Daniel November 11th, 2007

comments…

Charles November 12th, 2007

Jason,

The law is good. We're not. The law kills…always does. Jesus gives us life back. After that, it never leaves our brains because He lives within us. But sometimes, we get neurotic about it (because we are messed up) and before long, make it into something it isn't and use it like a three year old handling a colt .45.

The law isn't ever broken, we are broken up against it and if its purpose isn't to drive us closer to Jesus (as well as the sin the law condemns) then we are not looking at the law the way God intended it.

The reason you should focus on Him rather than sin is because if you know Him, you don't need anyone to help you remember about sin and the law. Believers do just fine with that. In fact, our weakness is that we are neurotic about it and, more than anything else, we need to remember Jesus and the freedom He won for us by removing that curse, rather than dabbling in sadistic (and deadly) religious sentimentality.

Easy way to remember is that the act of condemnation is levied more on me than the one I target with it. My pride in avoiding homosexuality is worse than the sin of homosexuality, regardless of what Sean Hannity says. And without His freedom and grace, I might as well do what the character in Pink Floyd's "The Wall" did…after obsessing about my inability to escape the curse, the pain of dissapointment, shave my eyebrows, put on a cheap suit, heavily spray my hair, bleach the teeth, and work on becoming the most horrible guy I can possibly become so I can share the pain liberally.

Unfortunately, I think alot of ministries get started that way….but then I am still overcoming the sin of cynicism

George November 13th, 2007

I was reading in Galatians this morning and wanted to share this with you all. God Bless

Galatians 2:12-21 (The Message)

Have some of you noticed that we are not yet perfect? (No great surprise, right?) And are you ready to make the accusation that since people like me, who go through Christ in order to get things right with God, aren't perfectly virtuous, Christ must therefore be an accessory to sin? The accusation is frivolous. If I was "trying to be good," I would be rebuilding the same old barn that I tore down. I would be acting as a charlatan.

What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work. So I quit being a "law man" so that I could be God's man. Christ's life showed me how, and enabled me to do it. I identified myself completely with him. Indeed, I have been crucified with Christ. My ego is no longer central. It is no longer important that I appear righteous before you or have your good opinion, and I am no longer driven to impress God. Christ lives in me. The life you see me living is not "mine," but it is lived by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not going to go back on that.

Is it not clear to you that to go back to that old rule-keeping, peer-pleasing religion would be an abandonment of everything personal and free in my relationship with God? I refuse to do that, to repudiate God's grace. If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily.

Justin December 6th, 2007

Steve, I don't believe you really love all of those people.

But I believe you're trying to.

I am too.

Newman January 24th, 2008

http://ntrminblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/defending-faith-against-those-who.html To: MikeMcK I was led to this site and forum by the above link which applauded your stand for our LORD CHRIST THE KING. It grieves me so to see so many who claim the Most Holy Most High Sovereign as their God so quick to trample upon His Holy Name with such absurd and dis-honoring(to honor is to make heavy and to dis-honor is to make light according to the Hebrew words literal meaning) remarks. I followed the comments in this thread and must say that you honored Christ as the others attempted to revile you and your plain speech which this generation cannot tolerate. One here,of all who commented,should surely have known better than to speak against you. I speak of Greg from Canada. He runs a website with a forum. I should have expected it though as Greg allowed a couple of false prophets to prophesy falsely for months and cause a great stir. Afterwards,when nothing they spoke came to pass,Greg and his friends immediately offered them a warm embrace and consoling words upon their apparent repentance. I say apparent because I nor they may see as God sees. I'd have just cautioned all to have used a bit more discretion then they did. My desire is that they have Godly sorrow and true repentance has been wrought in them by God's grace. Years ago I listened to Steve B. but found him to be light-hearted and soft on sin. Such ought not be in an elder. Among other qualities elders ought to possess according to Christ's Word is that of being sober and grave. He does not strike me as being so and I believe he is disqualified for this and other serious flaws such as not guarding the flock from wolves but rather befriending the wolves. Soft preaching produces hard hearts as seen above with Erik and others,while hard preaching produces soft hearts. Keep on preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, Mike. But prepare yourself for much opposition from the religious world. You will be hated as Christ said. Remember God's Prophets,John Baptist,the Apostles and early believers. What did they meet with in their time. Should we expect less in our time. I'd recommend the brother,Eric,who runs the site I linked above. Hated by the world… Bless God, Newman

Erik January 24th, 2008

Newman,

I'm glad you posted here since the blog to which you refer doesn't allow comments. The post there simply slammed us while praising MikeMcK without allowing discussion, and without reading MikeMcK's other comments on this site. Comments like…

mikemck | December 21st, 2007 on Homosexuals and the Church

"Oh. "Sparky". That's really bright. Did your sister give you that one while you were banging her?"

And then there was this gem…

mikemck | December 21st, 2007 on Homosexuals and the Church

"No. You go on and quit fucking your sister and go to your inbreeding anonymous recovery meeting yourself."

Now, I'm no stranger to colorful language and I've made my share of cruel comments. I don't quote MikeMcK here to excuse my behavior (of which i have repented and apologized). Also, I don't quote him because I hold anything against him.

However, you and the blogger to which you linked should have more facts before you go around passing judgment on us or MikeMcK.

Erik January 24th, 2008

Actually, you may want to give up on passing judgment altogether.

greg from canada January 24th, 2008

What forum do I run??? This is news to me….

Mark January 24th, 2008

Congrats on the new web site, Greg! Although I really think you should have know better, dude.

greg from canada January 24th, 2008

I maybe should have known better. But I probably wont learn from my mistakes now that I see how easy it was for me to make the website. I may actually make that blog I have been debating about doing now becasue of this

Newman January 24th, 2008

Erik, I merely commented upon the remarks made here on this thread by Mike. I then encouraged him to continue to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom. What I read here by Mike was very honoring to God. If the case be such that such comments were made by him elsewhere as the ones you have written then I'd certainly take issue with him on those. What I have posted regarding Steve B. remains as their is more than solid evidence to conclude that such is the truth. He ought to repent and then return with the solemn words of the apostles to his hearers all tempered with grace as our LORD has brought us grace and truth. Greg from Canada, My error in mixing you up with another who'd be known by the same name. Yet,if you know our LORD you ought to know better than to exhibit light-heartedness re: SIN. Men such as J. Osteen ought to be marked,avoided and called down. They ought to be commanded to repent. As false prophets and false teachers increase we can expect J. Osteen to rise in acclaim and fame. "An appalling and horrible thing has happened in the land:
The prophets prophesy falsely,and the priests rule on their own authority;and My people love it so! But what will you do at the end of it?" Jer.5:30,31

By His Grace, one of the few

Christov January 24th, 2008

greg from canada,

I didn't know you were Judge Reinhold! Nice picture. Congrats on the film, er, career, um, yeah. And the blog.

C.

Brian January 24th, 2008

Newman…..You are precisely correct. Funny how we are both stating the same issue. I call it the "Neo Grace Movement". These folks don't even know they are propagating heresy, so it's good to know there are others who actually think biblically. I will post what I posted earlier today on today's gang tackle red alert call to shut down the "damage control" happening at the Homosexual Blog due to one of my last posts. Well, I can't take full credit. Not much was ever happening outreach wise by any of the minions here anyway. Hey check out some of these peoples personal blog websites….they are absolutely full of themselves….and well, not an independent thinker in any one of them. Here's my take on Brown…and his minions.

Ok Greg….thanks for clearing all of this up. So he was responding to??? There was no dialogue taking place at the time of that comment between anyone else. But anyway, let's move on shall we??….the responses of many folks on this "blog" are the result of the teachings from Steve Brown which lack affirmation in God's Word as an absolute authority over one's "experience" dealing with repentance and forgiveness. Offering "3 free sins" when Jesus says "Go and sin no more" is an all out abomination. Steve's coarse jesting support of Neo Grace obstructs true biblical repentance in an attempt to make it sound archaeic and out of date and offers an existential approach in it's place bordering on Universalism.

Placing a greater "Authority" on "feeling and experience" than on the Scriptures themselves cannot possbily result in "biblcal repentance" and is therefor no different than any charasmatic or clever guru sprinkling anecdotes instead of Scripture to foster their causes, in this case, the Neo Grace agenda. He routinely denounces others adherance to "biblical authority" and states,

"Whenever religion becomes leverage, it ceases to be the religion of Jesus. The gospel of God's grace takes away the leverage."

Does it take it away?? Does not the Gospel of Grace then become the leverage?? Is Grace all there is to the Gospel?? Why stop there?? Universalists would also be in hearty agreement!! Were we saved just to "experience" (there's that word again) forgiveness?? Or rather isn't this just a part of biblical sanctification involving repentance, the working out of that salvation you've received, and the living out of a life passionately resonating and making a difference with that faith in a steadfast obedience to Scripture. Neo Grace says not! It says you are entitled to feel forgiven without true repentance, that God is "crazy about you" when in fact the "unrepentant" sinner grieves the Holy Spirit and may still be actually be unsaved and under the wrath of God! No where in Scripture do we see a God who states that He loves us "unconditionally". This is why it borders on Universalism. It absolutely promotes and creates a comfort zone where sin can be president, as well as resident, and thus allowing one to create an attitude of thinking that God is never offended by the sin of a believer…so one needn't be too concerned about it….sin get's tossed and joked about so flipantly and callously as if it's not really that important anymore on the "Blog". Repentance and obedience are soon left in the dust and replaced with a narcisistic and even egotistical reactionary response toward the traditional reformed views of repentance and obedience…which at some point, will may result in a theological "shift" in changing our understanding of the character of God..and turns it more into a "caracature"….or cartoon version of the Gospel.

Steve also states,

"You see, if I'm forgiven without condition, you can't make me feel guilty. If God loves me, you can't manipulate me by threatening to take away your love. If God knows my secrets and doesn't condemn me, my secrets can't be used as blackmail. If you have power and threaten to use it against me and I don't care, your power is no longer real power."

Let's examine this. This might be true…..if God's Word didn't say in Ephesians 4:30: " And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". If it is possible to grieve God, then what Steve is saying cannot be true. This also causes one to negate even having to think about I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and rightous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightousness". Why would God write this to "believers" if He no longer wanted us to think we could never offend Him with our sin as Steve states??

Let's take the next point where Steve writes,
" If God loves me, you can't manipulate me by threatening to take away your love".

God's love is not something we should take for granted either, which is just as manipulating as God would be to threaten to take it back! (although He would have every right!!) This again, is reactionary. It's a dangerous thing to create a doctrine on a hyperbole. Having God's love doesn't mean we ever had the "right" to it. It's still Christ's rightousness applied which makes us get along at all with God. If we take sin lightly, we certainly have it coming from others who will and should be offended by it, and perhaps expecting they should "just forgive" so freely is taking advantage and just as manipulative??

Thirdly, Steve states,

" If you have power and threaten to use it against me and I don't care, your power is no longer real power."

Ok, what about the case of those spending eternity in Hell , even their apathetic attutude does not invalidate the REAL power of God! In terms of relation to others, many of those in power also don't care, and any amount of apathy you can muster won't make a difference to them one bit. It only serves to feed one's own pride, serving as though a way to strike back with a stiff upper lip without any effectual cause at all.

Yes, There is a shift in Theology in Reformed Circles, and this is one in which you should all be aware. It's very reactionary….and not revolutionary. If Sarcasm is the hallmark of our Gospel campaign, then it's sin that attracts those who find solice in such whinery. Love without reason is not love at all, and it is a real shame what takes place here. What is supposed to be cutting edge in an attempt to strenghthen believers in their faith, only serves to make those who follow this Neo Grace Movement empowered….and for all the wrong reasons.

Christov January 24th, 2008

Jesus wasn't that grave a guy, which is to say he didn't remain one. He told at least one funny story that I know of.

Remember that parable about the rich man or king who threw a dinner party? At the appointed time his guests sent excuses. The first said something like, "I've just bought a piece of land, and have to go out and look at it." The second said, "I've just purchased a yoke of oxen, and I've got to go try them out." But the third, the third guy said, "I've just acquired a wife, and for that reason cannot attend." Which is to say, the third guy's excuse was greater than but like unto a combination of the first two. I thought it was pretty risque.

Brian January 25th, 2008

Newman,
You state, "Years ago I listened to Steve B. but found him to be light-hearted and soft on sin. Such ought not be in an elder. Among other qualities elders ought to possess according to Christ's Word is that of being sober and grave."

I coudn't agree more!! It's easier to win people over when they don't have to repent of anything. The guidelines set in Scripture are clear for being an Elder, and one must agree that those in "authority"…especially who's "business" it is to oversee and "undertake" the maturity of other believers, should be less comfortable granting "freedom" to sin, serve, and do whatever one feels so freely astounds me. This is what is scandalous!! I am thankful for the early reformers who banded together to champion vs. the heresies of their day by "calling out the sin" of those experimenting with their own anecdotal pop culture theories, which proved NOT to stand up vs. test of Scripture. Neo Grace advocates would rather stay clear of confrontation of sin….boy am I glad Calvin, Luther, Edwards stood up to face the world when called to do so by confronting sin head on in their culture. It resulted in the blessing of freedoms every protestant enjoys today! Instead of the Apostle Paul describing his call to God a "Scandalous Freedom", he more humbly recognized his role as a bond-servant "slave" to God. The only "scandalous freedom" really taking place are those who's lost souls have yet to be saved!!…….and yet when they discover they can still have their mammon plus Jesus too, skipping over their call to repentance creates the very "scandalous freedoms" that Paul calls out in Corinth, "Remove the wicked one from among you", he says!! Even In attempt to be understanding to a bruised and beat up world which does have value, the sinner must at some point be confronted with a call to change. The Church in America doesn't need more freedom….it needs less freedom, a call to discipline ,repentance, and purification that will unite those who are His by those in Christian authority and leadership….while we settle in for Dr. Phil and Oprah style outreach.

Mark January 25th, 2008

Brian - I may strongly disagree with you on many things, but I admire your passion and zeal. You feel strongly that Steve Brown's teaching is astray, and you have expressed that well. I'm glad that you are a brother, and I'm glad God doesn't make us agree on everything before putting us in the same family. Who would you suggest for others to read that might give the opposite point of view from Steve?

Mr. Rogers January 25th, 2008

After being around many Christians with good intentions, I've come to the conclusion alot of them worship Zeus.

MikeMcK January 25th, 2008

[quote]Who would you suggest for others to read that might give the opposite point of view from Steve?[/quote]

Pretty much all of the Bible.

Brian January 25th, 2008

Mark,

In our attempt to witness the Gospel making a difference and form an eminating desire to be involved in that difference….we have "dumbed down" the Gospel message. Pointing to a Jesus who had the advantage of knowing a person's heart and having the power to forgive and pronounce "on the spot salvation" is often used as examples to "prove" how easy believism can actually work!! I can't think of a greater time than now for the Church to make scriptural distinctions between those who are and aren't "on board". We are guilty (ooopss theres that word that doesn't really exist) of preaching a message which accepts the unbeliever with open arms, and allows them to remain in that state without ever a call to arms….ie. picking up their cross to follow Christ…ie physical evidence of a changed life!! We've stressed "Grace alone by faith" so much that we've negated the true life of a christian is filled with passionate action, sacrifice, labor, ridicule, rejection, and hatred from the world. What about the deep inner sacrifices and hard work which actually provide evidence of our salvation (We are saved by Christs works albeit). We've reacted to this b/c so many in the church don't commit to a discipline of "radical change" and instead want to add a synthetic Jesus to their mammon, "just in case". We;ve stopped at the point of "Grace" to forget pressing ahead for Christ in "unison". Just look at the discipline of the Mormons, JW's, and other cults….we are reactionary to their "works" just to show how the Christian faith is uniquely "not by works", especially the "reformed faith" and we've grown proud and complacent. Yes, we have the truth, but it isn't making much of a difference b/c we're too busy argueing about how "little" (actually nothing) one must do to become saved, so that nothing ever much goes beyond that to further the kingdom..what non christian wouldn't want a theology like that???

Daniel January 25th, 2008

I don't understand why everyone can't get along. For one thing Steve Brown often says that what he speaks is for the believer, not the unbeliever, one of his goals is to help existing christians see that by-laws, denominaton, and theology don't matter to God, only that you love the Lord your God, and your neighbor. He has helped me get in a much more healthy relationship with God and I thank him for that.

That is not to say a little fire and brimstone is bad, but it is a means to an end, not the end itself.

This bickering over things within out own family really breaks my heart, I can only imagine what Christ must think.

Ultimately though none of this will matter becasue we will open our eyes in heaven one day and embrace one another as bretheren, and spend eternity with our master.

I will leave this verse, it seemed appropriate to me but take it for what its worth…

I love you all in Christ and truly look forward to the day when we all meet in heaven…

1 Peter 2:1-3
1Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Brian January 25th, 2008

Daniel,
We're not proposing Fire and Brimstone….we just expect biblical "action" and repentance "after" Grace has been applied as an acknowledgment of what Christ has done! Expecting the "Neo no change" to take place and saying "everybody" sins so what's the big deal shows an irreverance to the Holiness of God. There must be a change or else Christ has not made a redemptive difference. Neo Grace is heresy. It rejects the bibilcal standard of repentance for a universalistic "hey…I'm under grace so no one can judge me" attitude which clearly removes authority from all church leadership and accountablility. We are also deeply concerned about our "Christian" leadership and the way they feel they can use their clever anecdotes to "scrutinize" those for scrutinizing over the rampant sin which is statistically no different than the world on any moral issue. For ex….if I told you to stop confronting believers about their sin…..Isn't it I who is actually doing the confronting over those expecting true repentance to take place?? It is neither more noble nor correct to "antinomianize" how a christian should respond to the real grace received than it would to expect a non-believer to repent "before" being saved!

Daniel,
I think you really do understand why "everyone" doesn't get along. Theology does matter….perhaps we'd all be shinnig the Pope's shoes about now singing hymns in Latin and hoping those evil Protestants never gain the upper hand if theology didn't matter. There are many ways in which to interprete meaning from Scripture….but not all of them can be correct….in fact, all are incorrect to some degree, yet aren't we still called to "correctly divide the Word to "our Utmost for His highest". That's what this is about….especially when it matters the most and not just for the sake of arguing. Paul argued in the Temple…..so did Jesus. Paul also had disagreements with other Apostles…even sent one away who he deemed was a detrement to the ministry. I see an exhorter in Paul which I don't see in public ministry today …calling those to follow Christ and to expect they will actually do it!! It's not about the Milk….it's about the meat…..time to start expecting growth from all these folks with all the "Grace".

Daniel January 25th, 2008

Hey Brian,

Maybe I minced words a little, I didn't mean "fire and brimstone" in the Johnathan Edwards sort of way…I just couldn't think of another word at the time…perhaps I meant "more orthodox"…

and I also agree that theology is important, if you've ever ventured into the other foums you'd see I'm pretty opinionated…

and for the most part I agree with what you are saying, it just seems to get hostile around here sometimes (no fault on any person), and I try to stay neutral…

I agree often the message gets "dumbed down" as well I agree that God often gets "merketed" into a neat little package. I guess in my walk right now I'm not sure what to do about it.

Perhaps it is a balancing act with grace and legalism, you don't want to have too much in one spot…in my opinion there is a fine line between reveling in grace and trampling on the cross…

I think we feel similar we just have different MOs…

anyway sorry for the ramble Im just thinking "outloud"

Shalom

Daniel January 25th, 2008

that should have been "marketed"…not "merketed"

Daniel January 25th, 2008

oh yeah, the "can't we all get a long" was somewhat tounge-in-cheek

Brian January 25th, 2008

I would agree Daniel….it's a balance. I am certainly not proposing we establish a works style Gospel of legalism….we can leave that to the Arminians who cheapen grace by making it something "attainable" apart from the Grace of God. It is by Grace we have been saved throuigh faith…..a faith which is bestowed to us at conversion (not even something we muster)…it's all God!! But after this takes place….we should be on a road toward sactification very much involving the work of the newly transformed believer (not adding to salvation, since it's already taken place). We have become so deeply enamoured in this grace, it has become an "idol" of reformed thinking. Isn't time to move on?? While we enjoy the benefits of this new life, we have not made any real significant changes in discipline within our weak, fat, lazy reformed body…which resembles much of the way Christianlty in America is as a whole. If it's true grace from God we have, where's the real follow through??

Daniel January 25th, 2008

I agree 100%, or at least 99.9%

Newman January 25th, 2008

Hi Brian, I am thankful to God for you and your articulation of the issues at hand. I type very slowly so it takes me very long to write just a little. I couldn't have said it much better than you in the posts above. Just one place I'd disagree was when you stated,"No where in Scripture do we see a God who states that He loves us "unconditionally".The usual meaning of the word unconditional is "without conditions or reservations; absolute." We may agree after all.You decide. I do not meet any conditions that qualify me for God's love. Christ met those conditions and therefore I am loved in Christ. Those outside of Christ,as those outside the ark in Noah's day,are under the just wrath of God. And nothing shall seperate us from THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST. All those given to Christ by the Father are both loved by the Father and the Son. The bride alone is the object of His love,not because she was lovable and met any conditions but because He set His love upon her and gave her the promise of the covenant made between the Father and the Son. If our marriage to the Son was dependent upon our keeping our end of the covenant it'd been rendered null and void long ago,even as that of Israel's was as it resulted in a lawful divorce by God in the O.T. The Father and Son covenanted and we His bride are the beneficiaries of His love,protection,care and eternal provision. He loved us and gave Himself for us while we were yet His enemies. He chose to love us unconditionally as He did the same with Noah,Abraham and others. And all to the praise of His glorious grace. I am loved with an everlasting love IN CHRIST. So His love is conditional in that He Himself insured His love for us by making and meeting those conditions Himself and graciously making us the recipients of such privilege and inheritance. All Praise be to God. MARK - If you're interested you may want to give Paul Washer an ear sometime. So much of what he says is what I believe the Bible clearly teaches. One of his powerful messages is "Examine Yourself ". This link may take you to that message: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=5220621750 Coarse jesting and light-heartedness is certainly not what you will hear coming from this man's mouth. He has a burden for the LORD and His sheep,as well as the lost who have not yet come in to the fold. Thanks be to God for His Faithfulness. Ambassador Newman

Brian January 26th, 2008

Hey Newman,

I would agree in the most literal sense that God's Grace is always effectual and everlasting with regard to salvation. The relationship is secure…even if only on God;s end. However, one's obedience (or lack thereof) certainly has conditions (preceptively) for us to remain in a state of "growth" and good fellowship with God. Would you agree that one can fall out of fellowship with God? Yes, ofcourse. It would be so much easier if God would interact with each of us specifically just as He did Jonah when we rebel vs. His lead (ie, Holy Spirit convictions and scriptural obedience) but that isn't what takes place. We can "resist" and "grieve" the work of the Holy Spirit (in our saved state, preceptively) This is where scripture study, discipleship, church discipline, wisdom from others acts as the vital source of keeping in close fellowship with God. Man's choice to obey in a redeemed state certainly is "conditional" for this to take place. Since we are writing to Christians here, this was the context of my point. It is also true that we never see the phrase "unconditionally loved" used, however I think you can tell from my prior posts that I would never mean to infer that God's Grace for "Salvation" is conditional upon man….It is purely a choice from God before the foundation of the World that had no bearing upon the actions of man. There are verses who's paranthetical warnings indicate a 'mixed" group within the church, some of who's calling is suspect…indicative of a life of faithlessness "after" a profession. We do very little to account for these types, due to a propagation of Neo Grace which isn' too concerned about the accountability of sin to the believer. Sure the "Church" is off our backs…..whew….but now we've gone to the other extreme!

Now that we are past the regenerate state, we have been enabled to obey God, responsible for our obedience since our faculties have been fully restored to keep "fellowship" with God strong. Saying that God didn't truly accomplish a complete work in it's entirety (salvifically speaking) and is "still" working on it, won't fly and is heresy….Catholic salvation, merit by works, would clearly be an example of this.

Ok, that being said….here's something to ponder. Those Scriptures which contain examples of folks warranting paranthetical warnings are missing from our Reformed message. There are people who think they're saved, but are truly not. These people not only do irreparable harm to the flock, they can take down a church, altar theological perceptions, throw off the balance of Biblical teaching…..and I think we have arrived at a pinnacle point where teachers need to be examined by the Word, and held accountable for what they say. We see the warnings everywhere in almost everybook in the NT!! Take the popular church ministires in America…..Joel Osteen, all the Health Wealth Prosperity False Teachers, even our very own reformed camp could do a much better job of rightly dividing the Word and denouncing false teachers, and Politicians, than they are doing! Mammon has a hold on this country….and I see less and less people speaking up about it….lest we lose a few members and stray from the "positve" style message which keeps many of the newbies in our reformed churches from walking away when the meat is preached. We've sold out truth and trusted our own understanding to grow the church sythetically, and substituted Pauline style teaching and preaching for a watered down palatable worldly feel good message!! No wonder the Church isn't strong right now. Who cares if it's not growing in numbers, that's not our concern,….we need to educate, and strengthen the faith of those we already have….stop this relaxed Neo Grace nonsense, and start expecting more trom the involvment of our congregations.

Maybe we shouldn't be comparing so much to these other dynamic and false examples of God "working" so that we feel the need to create our own versions? I say to hell with it. Preach the pure Word, feed the sheep, regardless of how many people want to give $ and become members……don't dumb it down. The true biblical reformed message is actually withering within our own churches. So "few" people want the true Biblcial message, it alarms me how unconcerned those of our highly influential reformed thinkers of our day don't see this happening, you guys out of touch?? Just wanna leave it to "grace" to work itself out?? It won't….it hasn't….and history tells us this.

Daniel February 28th, 2008

I understand "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"

but I also unserstand "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword"
Was this sword for atheists and cults only? never to strike the carnal, luke warm or Doctrinally deficient Christians?

And Who are the ones that told Jesus "did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?" were they just the cults? Or are they the same ones you want us to embrace as "Brothers?"
How did Jesus embrace them?

Are "Mature Christians" merely Saints who fought so long, that they are tired of the battle and the persecution, and now look for the common grounds to avoid the labor of the purpose?
Are they the ones Jesus tells say “You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first"

If in OT times under the law, the Pharisees and Sadducees were two legitimate divisions of worshipers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, should they have been left alone and embraced as brothers who just worship differently?
If no, than how is that any different than not embracing all divisions of Christianity?
If yes, than why did Jesus go off on them calling them vipers, white washed tombs and children of the devil?

Brian March 2nd, 2008

Great points Daniel!! Sounds to me like you also have a balanced approach to Grace and Truth. The Scriptures are full of both…..so we are not at liberty to dumb down either one without the danger of teaching heresy. It's a sad thing that this can happen to anyone who teaches Scripture as a "profession". I don't think it is that hard to balance these for application in Christian living. There will always be those who over emphasize one or the other, and it really bugs me, b/c they should know better. Those who know the Scriptures well absolutely know better, and look on (or listen on) in disbelief at the compromise of interaction at the expense of the Gospel. Jesus was "controversial" as well……but for much different reasons. Radical Grace should also be "biblical" and not change so as to include those who think it's ok to live in a homosexual lifestyle and be "radically accepted" or go unchallenged as Steve Brown has done. He even went on to confirm and acknowledge a person in this lifestye as having "understood" Grace over those who need it and "don't get it. Note to Steve, I don't think they get it…..and shame on you for failing to state otherwise. If this is radical grace…..it's not what Jesus is offering.

Brian March 2nd, 2008

Living out this type of lifestyle feeling comfortably accepted in the Grace of God is nothing more than living a lie…..to confirm such a person without challenging them, is a clear sign of condoning it. The temptation with a "grace" message is to make it sound "new" so that others will "latch on" and truly find it. But that isn't what happens if these folks are "blessed" and "Christened" for their lifestyle. It's one thing to struggle with it, than to be at peace with it…..and this is the Christian difference. Everyone struggles with sin…..it's those who practice it and don't think it's wrong are what's wrong with a Grace that's bigger than the Grace that Jesus offers with truth to accompany. Otherwise, Oprah and Dr. Phil won't "judge you" like Jesus will…..their grace is bigger than the one God offers…..and that is a danger for those who are desparate to "win" folks over to one's ministry. I'll take what Jesus offers and not add or take away.

Christov March 2nd, 2008

Today I heard one of the best sermons I've ever heard preached about judgment, from, I think it was Isaiah 8. The guy in the pulpit didn't teach grace from the passage because the passage didn't teach grace. He was able to find application to what passes for the church. At the end, the guy advised the congregation to ask God for mercy, not justice. And he wasn't even wearing that special hat I've been talking about. Man, I love it when a preacher tells the truth of scripture as it's written. I wish you could have listened in on AM WJIG Loathsome Stepford, Tennessee.

Brian March 2nd, 2008

Amen!! Preach it Brother. No special hats, just the truth, in love, side by side, joined at the hip, just as it is in Scripture. No questions asked here!

Christov March 3rd, 2008

I meant Isaiah 9, latter part, through 10, first part.

One of the things that irks me in the shoebox is when the pulpit guy "exigetes" (sp?) a passage of scripture that's a difficult passage containing an unsettling message, and the guy tries to "soften the blow" by trying to explain why the message both implicit and explicit in the text a. is a historical curiosity, thus has no applicability to the people of God today; b. does not really mean what a rendering into English by a plain translation from the original languages and sources state it says before you in print on the page; c. several references to other passages that say something different so the hearers won't think God's a monster and won't feel uncomfortable. The thing is, if God's not talking about it at this point in scripture, into the circumstances in which the message was originally received, why's the pulpit-guy talking about it.

The larger picture contains the narrow gate of redemption, grace, mercy (not necessarily in that order), but the backdrop is one of fallen, broken creation shot through with the fissures of and mucked up with the stinking rubble left over from the fall contained, as it were, in a basket of judgment and wrath. Against that, the good news of justification by faith, mercy of God toward those who turn Godward of every tribe, tongue, nation, incarnation of Christ and saving contact with the Living God through him - well, the message of the gospel stands out in stark, glaring relief.

I think sticking to the text and what it contains is a pulpit-guy discipline neglected too often by too many, and it leads to muddy theology. It doesn't take an advanced degree or special club membership or a special hat to practice that discipline. Maybe that's why it's not practiced - it brings no glory to its practitioner.

Guy named Nottle, I think, wrote a good book about the OT law called Grace in the End, if I recall correctly.

I gotta quit going off-topic.

Pax

Doc April 15th, 2008

Yeah, well ,,,, and I love you too. And you better love me back 'cause you're going to have to spend an eternity with me.

I can just hear us now, "JESUS, oh JESUSSSSS, Steve said something stupid, are You going to wash his mouth out this time, like You promised???"

tommy May 15th, 2008

Didn't Paul say something to the effect that the good that I would do, I don't; but, the evil that I would not, that I do. Isn't it the two natures of man: spirit and flesh? Who will rescue me-Praise Christ! Won't we all be fighting this battle 'till the last breath?

MikeMcK May 16th, 2008

That would be Romans 7:19