Lance May 10th, 2007

I find that my orientation as a gay man usually tests the limits of the 'radical grace' theology in Christian circles.

But I'm also aware that at my stoning, as Jesus is bending down to write something on the ground, 'the old white guy' would be the first one to walk away.

Being gay, I've had to dig deep to explain the two main differences in attitude among Christians about gays.

I find a satisfactory answer in the allegory of Hagar and Sarah (Galatians 4:21-31)

"The story of Hagar and Sarah is symbolic and has a deeper meaning than first appears. The two women represent two covenants: Hagar the covenant of the law and Sarah the covenant of grace. The covenant of the law given at Mt Sinai produced slavery; thus Hagar, a slave girl, fitted that covenant. Hagar represents Jerusalem (vs 25), the center for unsaved Israelites who were still seeking to obtain righteousness by keeping the law. For Paul to link unbelieving Israelites with Hagar rather than with Sarah was a stinging characterization. True believers are born of God and faith in Jesus (vs 28) but they will often be persecuted and mocked by those born of the flesh, just as Ishmael mocked Isaac (vs 29). Paul goes on to encourage the Galatians to listen to the verdict of scripture (vs 30) that it is impossible to inherit God's blessings on the basis of human merit or effort; furthermore, those who trust in Christ have no connection with the law as a means of obtaining divine favor. They (and we) are the children of Sarah, the free woman."

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Bible/Gal7A.htm

I think the passage in Galatians makes it clear that there will ALWAYS be this type of division in the church, because there will always be sons of the law, and sons of faith…worshipping side by side.

What's important, is that the sons of faith need not be intimidated by the sons of the law, into watering down the good news of the message of justification through grace and faith.

Sons of the Promise will never convince the sons of the law to see it their way…and sons of the law will never get the 'grace' thing..(except for themselves).

We understand that grace and mercy by their very nature are undeserved.

Ummm…at this point though, I will stop before I break out into three rounds of "If I had a hammer."

I've been listening to Steve Brown etc for more than a year….and am proud to be the show's token gay Aussie listener.

Lance White
Perth, Australia.

Steve Brown May 10th, 2007

Hi Gay Friend,

Great comments! You "get it" and so few do.

I used to wonder why so few did. Your comments on Galatians are quite sobering. You may be right.

Yeah! The sons of faith need not be intimidated by the sons of the law into watering down the good news of the message of grace. It's always a temptation for me. A friend of mine says that anybody who makes their living at religion is going to lose one or the other. I have this unfortunate habit of eating and sometimes water the message down and visit stonings.

I repent.

Hey, the best thing you said was that when they gathered to stone you the "Old White Guy" would be the first one to walk away when Jesus talked about the sinless one throwing the first stone. I hope I wouldn't be there. But, if I was, I wouldn't stay long if Jesus made that kind of comment.

He always messes up a good stoning.

Geoduck Joe May 10th, 2007

I'm sure there are tons of reasons teaching a reformational view of grace is infuriating. It strikes me that a big one has nothing to do with who you're letting in to the party (i.e. folks like Lance or me), but rather that you're lowering the standards. You're taking away the motivational speech factor of preaching, which makes the thirty-minute life application sermons much more difficult.

The Law is a tricky thing, but it seems that most of us secretly believe it can be kept - at least mostly. The forgiveness of Jesus lets us start over when it isn't kept. And that's what gets preached, "Try your hardest because the more you try the less you'll sin, and if you sin remember you're not Catholic and can be forgiven… just don't do it again."

The doctrine of grace requires us to really get the Law - this impossible statement by God - a truly extreme and despair-inducing bunch of ideas that run contrary to us. I've heard, too many times, "God wouldn't require us to do something we can't do." Really?

So when it comes to "Be holy as I am holy," people think it's possible apart from imputed righteousness. People think it's a command from God and God wouldn't say it if we couldn't do it. So rather than drive us to despair, which then drives us to the cross, it drives us to work harder, to read more books, to attend more conferences and retreats. No one wants to be the guy to say, "Hey, I can't do it," because he thinks everyone else will say, "Then you may really want to consider whether you're actually a Christian. Read this book, fast and pray harder."

Steve, I think the people who hate the preaching of grace are primarily those who don't think the Law is impossible. Grace is perceived as telling someone to give up early. Too often it's viewed only as a safety net, so when someone comes along and says, "Jump up and down on the highwire," "Run back and forth on the highwire," they say, "Careful up there. I'm sure the net works, but no sense pushing your luck."

Steve Brown May 11th, 2007

Really great comments, Joe.

Lewis once said that the only people who think that "being good" is easy are people who haven't tried very hard to be good.

I would go a lot further than Lewis, I think, by saying that people who think that being good is even possible, are people who are either living in denial or haven't tried. And not only that, I would add that those who think that living by the law is possible don't understand the extreme and impossible demands that are made by the law.

Someone who is "antinomian" (and I'm often accused of being that) says that the law doesn't matter. I, on the other hand, think that it not only matters but that the law of God should be taught with clarity and power. It is only there that we discover who we are, come to the end of ourselves and run to Jesus who may or may not make us better but who will always accept us and give us his righteousness.

There is an old sermon illustration about a man who is standing before Peter who, to the man's shock, says, "You have to have earned a thousands points to be admitted to heaven. What have you done to earn your points and to be admitted?"

"I never heard that before: but I think I'll do alright. I was raised in a Christian home and have always been a part of the church. I have Sunday school attendance pins that go down the floor. I went to a Christian college and graduate school and have probably led hundreds of people to Christ. I'm now an elder in my church and am quite supportive of what the people of God do. I have three children, two boys and a girl. My oldest boy is a pastor and the younger is a staff person with a ministry to the poor. My daughter and her husband are missionaries. I have always tithed and am now giving well over 30% of my income to God's work. I'm a bank executive and work with the poor in our city trying to get low income mortgages. I also:

: uh, how am I doing?"

"That's one point," Peter said. "What else have you done?"

"Good God!" the man said in frustration. "Have mercy."

"You've got it!" Peter said. "Welcome home."

Teach the law. The Psalmist called it "perfect."

Teach it until people are sick of it and cry out for mercy.

Mercy always "comes running."

kantian May 11th, 2007

I am a Catholic and I see some of the same problems in our community. I see it emerging in the judgmental attitudes of my fellow parishioners. They know they are not supposed to be judgmental but they don't know how to stop being judgmental. Behind that is the belief that people ought to be good and behave well in order to be good Catholics. And part of that belief is very likely the assumption that our goodness is something we have to bring about by our actions and that means implicitly we have to work for our salvation, or at least for our worthiness. So, I think this problem is a very universal problem.
I have also attended a Methodist church where the preaching was very moralistic. And behind that I got the message that I just needed to do the right things and I would be worthy. I found the people in that church to be very judgmental too!
It seems like there is a close association between believing one must earn one's salvation and being a self-righteous person who is very judgmental. So, no wonder Steve gets so much grief. He is challenging the people who are most self-righteous and judgmental!
What I have come to see though is that their belief that they must earn their salvation is not a conscious belief. It is so pervasive that it is basically unconscious. If you would ask them if you can earn salvation they would deny they believe it. But then that is exactly how they act.
So the question is: how can these people really come to see the gift of grace. How can they stop being so judgmental and driven to earn their salvation? They even see their judgmental attitudes as something they must work to get better at not doing!
I think Steve's emphasis on "running to Jesus" is so good because it says in a very literal and pictoral way that we need to establish a relationship with Jesus. It tells me to have a friendship with Jesus. Friends don't tell each other what to do, they just enjoy each others company. They just enjoy being with each other and accept each other as they are. They don't judge each other (although sometimes they exhort each other). But the greatest thing they do is spend time with each other - and that is not just in prayer but also in being with fellow human beings as a friend who cares. Friends see each other from the inside, not from the outside. They understand why they do what they do and as a result don't need to judge the other from the outside. If more people understood Steve from the inside they would know that his heart is pure and one of love and that he wants so much for people to become free and experience God's love and grace for themselves in a real and experiential way.
Someday maybe they will. I hope so. God bless.

Dave June 5th, 2007

A Tale of Two Grandsons

On alternating Saturdays Bill and Fred take their Grandmother to lunch at her favorite restaurant. Each one opens the car door for her, seats her at the table, asks about her week, listens attentively to her stories, makes sure she gets what she wants and spends the afternoon with her.
Bill is interested in his Grandmother. He takes her to lunch out of this interest. He fixes things about her house out of this interest. He checks in with her often out of this interest.
Fred is interested in his Grandmother. He takes her to lunch out of this interest. He fixes things about her house out of this interest. He checks in with her often out of this interest.
What is the difference? In their actions, not a thing, in their motives, everything. Bill loves his Grammy, she is dear to his heart, he will be heartbroken when she passes. Fred loves his Grandmother's money, it is dear to his heart, he will act heartbroken when she passes.

Those who live under grace live in God's love and mercy. Those who live under the law live in fear of the law and its causal judgement. Yet, both obey the God's law as best they can.

One might wish to consider that God is more perceptive than anyone's Grandmother.

Vicki September 7th, 2007

I have thought about writing for several years now to the ministry, but have never taken the time. Anyway, the first time I heard Steve say that the whole foundation of his ministry is, "God is not mad at you," I was amazed. That was at least eight years ago, and I'm still amazed. It hasn't quite sunken(?) in, but it's getting there!

I read 90 Minutes In Heaven about three years ago, two months after my youngest son was killed in a motorcycle accident. Afterwards, I wondered if it were all theologically accurate, then I thought, "I don't care." Either way, it was something that God used to comfort me to the core. I will always miss my son, and I love him deeply, but I know he's okay, that he feels warmly cared for, and that I will see him again and we will have a lot to catch up on.

Thanks so much for your ministry.

Brian March 8th, 2008

Subject: Concerned Wife
A pastor asked if anyone in the congregation would
like to express Praise for answered prayers. A lady
stood and walked to the podium. She said, 'I have a
Praise.

Two months ago, my husband, Jim, had a terrible
bicycle wreck and his scrotum was completely crushed.
The pain was excruciating and the doctors didn't know
if they could help him.'

You could hear an audible gasp from the men in the
congregation as they imagined the pain that poor Jim
experienced.

She continued, 'Jim was unable to hold me or the
children and every move caused him terrible pain. We
prayed as the doctors performed a delicate operation .
They were able to piece together the crushed remnants
of Jim's scrotum and wrap wire around it to hold it in
place.'

Again, the men in the Congregation squirmed
uncomfortably as they imagined the horrible surgery
performed on Jim.

She continued, 'Now, Jim is out of the hospital and
the doctor's say, with time, his scrotum should
recover completely.' All the men sighed with relief.

The pastor rose and tentatively asked if any one else
had anything to say. A man rose and walked slowly to
the podium.

He said, 'I'm Jim and I want to tell my wife, the word
is sternum.'

Alan Waggoner June 6th, 2008

Really good stuff Steve. I agree, grace is not "earned". We are justified simply by believing. Where sin abounds, grace superexceeds. Where we need to be careful is found in Paul's next verses.

"Should I sin more that grace will increase"
NO!

We should not embrace sin simply because of grace.

This is from a commentary by AE Knoch on part of Romans 5 & 6.
I think you'll enjoy it.

Romans 5:20 Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin so that it became an offense. Just as Adam's sin was against God's expressed command, and thus was a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head, so those under the law, by sinning against light, greatly increased the sinfulness of sin. Obedience to the law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced their power. But grace not only exceeds the effects of sin, but superexceeds the offenses of those under law, so that now, Grace has dethroned sin.

Romans 6:1 The absolute despotism of Grace is set forth in the startling suggestion that if we should be persisting in sin, grace would increase.. While the following argument is against persistence in sin, it confirms the sovereignty of grace. Let us not deny this marvelous doctrine. It will give us rich, exultant liberty, ridding us of the thralldom of Sin, and giving us power to avoid the very sins which unnatural logic supposes we would eagerly follow, now that there is no condemnation even if we should sin.

6:2 This and the following chapter are a digression, discussing the effects of the reign of grace, first without, and then with, law. Deliverance from sin comes, not through victory over it, but through death to it. It is useless to struggle against sin, or to fight with its practices. Rather we should acknowledge its force and reckon ourselves as dead through it and to it, yet alive in resurrection, where sin has no place.

6:3 The spiritual values of baptism into the death (Lu.12:50) and entombment with Christ, as shown in this chapter, indicate that spirit baptism is in view here (cf lCor.12:13). "For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body."

6:8 As we did not die, but Christ was crucified for us, we may reckon His death as ours, fully finishing our connection with sin, and His resurrection as ours also, for in Him we enjoy an unclouded life in the presence of God.

Romans 6:12-7:12

Conciliation—Individual

6:12 A realization of our death to sin and life in Christ will give us power to cope with sin, always remembering that sin cannot bring us into disfavor because of the superexceeding grace.

6:14 Law, as we shall see in the next chapter, not only cannot deliver from Sin, but actually forges the fetters of Sin, and makes Sin's bondage more cruel and galling.

6:15 The law said, "Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the Scroll of the Law, to do them." Grace says, Blessed are you, whatever you may do, for Christ has justified you and not one dare bring anything against you. The fallacious logic of the old humanity in immediately imagines that this gives license and encouragement to sin. But its actual effect is quite the opposite. Grace, not law, has power to deter us from sinning. No one who has an actual experience of grace, reasons that because there is immunity, therefore he will sin. The offender against law flies in the face of law. Its austere threats do not hinder him. But the offender against grace feels the heinousness of his offense and flies from it.