Brian March 5th, 2008

Steve, Here's another side to Barack you haven't seen….

Obama: Sermon on the Mount Supports Same-sex Unions

On the campaign trail yesterday, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) defended his support of abortion and same-sex unions. In response to a question at a stop at Hocking College in Nelsonville, Ohio, Obama said he does not support calling same-sex unions marriage, but thinks same-sex couples should be given the recognition and benefits granted to married couples. "I think that it is a legal right that they [homosexuals] should have that is recognized by the state. If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans." Jesus teaches on a number of issues central to the Christian life in the Sermon on the Mount: being witnesses to the world, loving our enemies, honoring marriage - but there is no instruction on same-sex unions. As for St. Paul's writing in Romans, it is distinguished not by its obscurity but by its clarity and consistency with all of Christian teaching about the nature of sexuality and marriage. Paul writes: "They [the unrighteous] exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (Romans 1:24-27, NIV) Obama also told the crowd that his support of abortion (he voted against banning partial-birth abortion, and against notifying the parents of minors prior to their having an abortion) and his support of same-sex unions do not make him "less of a Christian."

Additional Resources
Obama: Sermon on Mount Justifies Same-Sex Unions

Mark March 5th, 2008

For those of you wondering where Brian's post came from, click here (and scroll down about half a page):

http://www.standfortruthonline.com/

It's always wise to site your sources. I'm sure it was an oversight.

Christov March 5th, 2008

I may write-in Richard M. Nixon, but he was wrong about China and the "global economy." On the other hand, he was right about a lot of stuff, and he's dead, so he can't do any harm.

Brian March 6th, 2008

Obama's Bible Defense of Same-Sex Unions Wrong, Experts Say

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/11569940/

It was interesting to see how Tony Campolo rushes in to defend Obama…..maybe he's planning on being his "spiritual advisor" in a similar effectiveness that he was for Bill Clinton?? : ))

I wonder what Steve's position on Same-Sex Unions would be??

PS. Mark, wrong link, I received the info from a direct source, I apologize for not posting it, but since the oversight committee oversought, and didn't request the source, I will decline to suppy it….I like yours better! : ))

Sandy in Indiana March 6th, 2008

To rework a famous "Christian Republican" phrase, "Republicans are forgiven too! I am one of those strange persons who are Christian and like Hillary Clinton. If elections were not ultimately popularity contests with the smoothest talkers winning, she would be our next president because she has the knowledge and the "heart" for the people in our country. I know that is an unusual view, as everyone seems to think she is not soft enough. I reasonbly sure, soft, is not an word we would want to apply to our President. Just for the record I like her for more reasons than the fact she is a woman, which is actually a plus. Now that would be what I call change!

When all is said and done - the President does not run the country - congress does.

Chemical Erik March 6th, 2008

I use the iGoogle home page. This was in the quotes this morning.
The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.
- Larry Hardiman

tim March 6th, 2008

Man I just read that link from crosswalk. I can't believe how ridiculous Christians act when they write stuff. Obama is obviously saying that he thinks the Bible speaks much more about broader problems that he wants to deal with instead of making a big deal out of same-sex marriage. To skewer him for Biblical misinterpretation of Matthew 5 etc. is just stupid. Again read what he said, he never even implied that the sermon on the mount somehow supported gay marriage. I can't believe someone lecturing on how to interpret the Bible would misinterpret someone so readily. You might not agree with his position, but that's just asinine.

There's times I feel like we Christians are like a bunch of whiney kindergartners, trying to tell on another student to the teacher and trying to get brownie points and a gold star on the wall instead of actually loving people where they are. It's insane. I'm beginning to to think that all the fatalist interpretations of the end times have some merit, it's hard to think that the church will sink lower and fail more miserably to impact culture than we are failing right now.

Alright, rant over.

Nathan March 6th, 2008

"You know something? If you’re a Democrat and a Republican is elected president, you’ll probably survive and the nation will too. And if Obama is elected, I’ll survive and the nation will too. Do you know why? Because the ability of the head of state to change the state of the world is vastly overstated."

- Love it. Will quote it. I tend to be cynical enough to believe that I have about as much power to dictate the next president statistically as Paul had to dictate the next Ceasar. And he never really seemed to panic.

Chemical Erik March 6th, 2008

Tim - The level at which we are screwing up now makes me think GOD is setting up to do something relatively big. GOD in the OT worked the "biggest" miracles when people screwed up so bad that any good outcome could only come from GOD. Of course, we haven't screwed up as bad a some of the OT societies. At least not yet.

jefe March 6th, 2008

I'm just waiting for the evangelicals to put forth a 3rd party candidate and make this thing really interesting…

tim March 7th, 2008

Hey I here you CE, it gives me hope for the future. I mean, I know we are just human and that christians will always make very public mistakes, but its just a whammy to think that it's so obvious to everyone that we are totally in violation of our most central principles so much of the time. I mean being peace lovers? Or patient? Or loving our enemies? Or being kind-hearted? The whole world knows those are basic tenants of our faith and they know how badly we are screwing them up. It just makes me sad that so many people associate Jesus with hate, spite, pride, anger being uncompassionate, etc.

Charles Curtis March 7th, 2008

We like total control, at the expense of patience, love, kindness….which I think is witchcraft…err, I mean programs. I mean….

But then, maybe the Witch of Endor would have been a great fundraiser. Just put her in a First Lady's outfit with very large ear-rings and make statements like "You go girl!".

I like Obama too, even though the content of alot of what he is saying is pulled out of hindparts somewhere (they are really sort of all like that–no real way to know how good a politician will do in office, before they are in office). I even like him better than McCain.

Like many these days, I am simply "Anyone but Hillary."

George McFly March 7th, 2008

"Save the clock tower"

Michelle March 7th, 2008

Although I agree Jesus is patient, kind and a peacemaker, was he silent, are we to be silent? When it comes to questioning our moral standing are we to be complacent? When Jesus saw men selling cattle in the temple did he just walk by and try to keep peace? I think quit the opposite. I believe that is the problem in the church today we are trying so hard to keep peace, let's not ruffle any feathers, that in keeping peace we are turning a blind eye to what morally is destroying our country. Christ always confronted a person's sin ex: the woman at the well, did he just ask for a drink and then went on his way so as not to have a confrontation? No he addressed the woman's sin of having 5 husband's and also being with a man who was not her husband. Or lastly in John 10 when the Jews continued to question Jesus as to who he was and his reply "I have told you but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me." Was this statement peaceful or kind-hearted? Let's not underestimate the same loving, caring peaceful God has teeth and while we are to love and care and accept we are not be silent on the Truth of what God's word states. There is a balance between the 2 and many church's go to one extreme or the other. As for Obama I could never vote for anyone who is for the two huge immoralities plaguing our country today homosexuality and abortion. Although the person is to be loved the sin is abhored and scripture is very clear. Jesus said we would be hated just as he was hated because of our belief, I don't think he meant for us to blend in with the crowd by that statement.

Charles Curtis March 7th, 2008

Anger and retribution aren't wrong, necessarily. I just don't think I can handle them like He did.

I agree about your views on abortion and homosexuality. I am also against corporate greed, white collar crime, corruption, lack of compassion for the weak and helpless. It's hard to see how many folks make it paying $3.25 per gallon, oil companies making $300 billion and watching Dubai climb to the sky….while we could do so much more to provide alternative fuel sources right now. It's about money. Somehow, we aren't usually all that fired up about those as we are abortion and homosexuality. But like I said, I am pretty sure I can't handle anger and retribution as well as Jesus did.

I don't think John McCain is fired up about much than John McCain. Same goes for Hillary. Obama may have us all fooled, but at least he hides it better

tim March 7th, 2008

I think you are confusing me saying we should be patient and loving about being less than clear or a pushover. That's not what I'm saying, what I am saying is that we can speak with grace and compassion first, which is what Jesus did (unless when he was talking to the religious leaders, interesting).

It comes down to the verse that talks about "blessed are those who suffer for my (Jesus') name." I think far too many Christians claim they are being persecuted for standing up for Jesus when in reality they are being persecuted for acting like complete buttholes. It's not Jesus that most people have a problem with, it's pushy, condescending arrogance that non-Christians can't stand. Jesus always spoke with compassion first when he was talking to the "sinners" that surrounded him. Sure he didn't shy away from speaking clearly, but undergirding everything was deep love and compassion. I don't get that from a lot of church leaders today.

And I've said this before, but I think abortion is a total non-issue. Whether legal or illegal, women will still have the available choice to have an abortion. If we really don't like abortion so much, we need to focus our efforts on actually helping people make a better choice. I mean honestly, we are basing voting for president on an issue that he has absolutely no direct control over, with the hope that he can appoint a sc judge who must claim impartiality to even get approved by congress, who then must gain a majority to overturn an old law, and then by overturning it won't really have an effect on actual people having actual abortions? Seems like a monumental waste of time to me. On top of all that, Tony Campolo is right on - for at least 2 years we had a pro-life president, house and senate, and they could have at any point passed a bill banning post-1st trimester abortions (what roe vs wade does not cover) and they did not. The people that we Christians helped elect partly on the basis that they would do something about abortion did not do so when they had an opportunity. So to me voting for someone on that basis seems utterly pointless.

Re: the gay marriage thing, again I find myself agreeing with Campolo. Let the gov't only handle a legal domestic partnership arrangement that anyone who's a taxpaying citizen can be a part of, and leave marriage to the churches. None of the candidates are taking that position, which is unfortunate. But if taxpaying homosexual citizens are being denied rights that taxpaying heterosexual citizens are granted, then I'm all for leveling that playing field.

Mark March 7th, 2008

"I think far too many Christians claim they are being persecuted for standing up for Jesus when in reality they are being persecuted for acting like complete buttholes."

Well said, Tim. That should be on a t-shirt.

Fantastic post.

ct March 7th, 2008

Steve,

I always enjoy your blog. You have a perspective that I love and that King Jesus uses to balance out my anger and frustration.

When I read "As I understand it, there is a limit of only one Messiah per universe. We already have ours. He’s the King that nobody elected and nobody will depose.

As I understand it, he’s still in charge of this mess.

When I think of that, I feel better about both Obama and McCain."

That makes me feel better and puts my mind back on Christ. I can then at least calm down and take some deep breaths (even if it is for only 2 minutes)

Thanks Steve!

Michelle March 7th, 2008

Actually Tim I was not refering to where Jesus said "Blessed are those who will suffer for my names sake" I was refering to the scripture in John 15:18 where it states "If the world hates you, keep in mind it hated me first." Also the scripture in John 10 he was not rebuking the pharisees he was rebuking the Jews that went to hear him speak at the temple. And lastly when he saw men selling in the temple did he first approach the situation in love and compassion, are you saying all these people were pharisees? I dont think I even attempted to say that whoever is in office would be able to change the path that our country has chosen to take, I said I cannot vote under my moral obligation w/someone who sees no problem in civil unions w/same sex partners or murdering the unborn whose choice is not considered, that is my moral standing I didn't ask for yours. And once we have spoken w/grace and compassion then what? hmmmm Seems like I mentioned in my post there is a balance, Seems like I also mentioned that churchs take one extreme or the other. Yes, too many so-called Christians are really screwing up and that is exactly what non-believers want to hold onto as the stereotypical Christian and in that sense I will give you the butthole verbage,but we can't get complacent and that is what we have become, myself included!!!

animoniuos March 7th, 2008

Religion and politics? AND on topic? swEEEET!!

animoniuos March 7th, 2008

No, seriously though, this would be the perfect conversation to have an intelligent conversation about… in the Love of Christ that we as believers are all called to… Think of the possibilities!!

Charles Curtis March 8th, 2008

Possibilities are for risk takers with faith stemming from knowledgable confidence.

Antiseptic positions against anything that sounds off color on the one side ("God needs our help!") ….or the nutty absolute proclomation that there are no absolutes, on the other ("no one can know reality"), sort of has both ends of the spetrum sort of paralyzed or fighting each other, like on Life of Brian.

We'll probably have a representation in DC that reflects either of those value systems, as a result….and we'll blame everyone else for it.

The buck stops with the voter or the pre-programmed voting cartridges .

Speaking of voting cartridges, the good part about GW Bush's reign was that the liberal media actually uncovered alot of questionable issues concerning electronic voting (awsome HBO documentary regarding this). But that was only because of concern the Republicans were behind it in 2004. Let's see if they are real concerned about it this year if Dems win.

I know I ramble in streams…..bear with me.

Brian March 8th, 2008

I am amazed at how cynical so called Christians can be with regard to issues such as Abortion (which is murdering babies), Homosexuality (a lifestyle at the very heart of exchanging truth for a lie), yet we can find contempt for other Countries who's practices to discard children based on their Governments "regulation" of how may children are "allowed". For the socio-political Christian, it must be asked whether the bigger issue is the "regulation" and control or the killing of the babies?

Steve Brown already spoke about this on an earlier blog where He correctly states,

"However: Because the laws against murder haven't stopped murder we should have no laws respecting murder. Right? Or in fact, if a law is broken – any law – we should take it off the books. Right?
Law has several functions and one of them is revelatory, to wit, our laws (even if they aren't enforced) reflect what we as a nation think is right or wrong. Laws change to reflect a cultural decision on a lot of issues and abortion is one of them. If hearts do change (and there is some indication that Americans are rethinking that issue) the laws will change and Roe v. Wade will be overturned. That probably won't stop abortion but will reflect an important shift in our culture and that shift will lower the abortion rate".

Steve "gets" the purpose of "societal" law…..amazingly hasn't deposed it as many posting here have done and continue to do. This really isn't about Rov vs Wade or something circumstantial, it's about respecting principle truth, for Christians, it has everything to do with God…. for the non believer, everything is about self and what glorifies self….ie… one less baby to some is more "inconvenience" and it is this issue which is at the root of the problem. I liken it to what David did to Bathsheba's Husband…"playing God" so that she no longer would have a husband so he can have his way with her. That sin cost him the kingdom. One cannot rely on those who leave this issue to a "choice" without consequences….I don't expect a non Christian to obey God, but they can and do obey laws….or face the consequences of choosing not to. As long as you hide behind the position of "govt regulating morality" (while it takes the "liberty" to legislate "Immorality"), and appeal to human circumstancial burdens associated such as the taxes, inconveniences, a loveless child, etc. as reasons for why this type of morality should not be regulated, face the facts that civil law already does so in the courtrooms of America everyday. Outcomes dealing with child abductions, child pornography, child abuse, childrens education as well as certain types of abortion are morally regulated and ought to be. Just flip on "dateline" or your local news to watch the filth rising to the top of consciousness in America today. Primetime TV shows basically "pornographic" and content dealing purely of illicit sex. We have become desensitized by a blood thirsty evil culture hanging on to what little resembles those of it's founders….even if many of them were deists…they feared as well as respected God more so than many of the cynics posting on this blog!! So called christians arguing from a point of view which has nothing to do with God…"that" is what is really asinine. I wonder what God thinks about your "ungodly" conclusions??

Whoever said you can't mix religion and politics already did by putting them together in the same sentence yet didn't know much about the religious connections of America's early founders, some who placed their religious convictions into law!! What limitations should be placed on that?? If what God says is true why would any Christian want to make concessions for selfish convenience as an excuse for not doing what he says to do (or not do) or take comfort in a Govt. who says it's ok to kill a child….remember, it's a child, not a choice. Without speaking from both sides of your mouth, explain why you wouldn't want to obey God when it comes to destroying a living soul HE created??

Brian March 8th, 2008

Great posts Michelle!! Isn't it amazing how non-christianized some of these christians really are??? I've never seen such a grace demanding, selective grace offering, bunch of people who love and support the positions of an ever increasing Godless Government. It would actually be less stubborn for them to dig their heals in and obey what God clearly teaches in His Word (or implies) rather than in the sifting sand of a "more grace please" theology. Immorality is bad enough…but Amorality is just as bad (saying you don't care about something isn't an issue, when it really is) and it is truly asinine to embrace such an Apathy to one of the most extreme heart breaks in American Culture to date….more babies have been murdered, than all who have died fighting wars "for" this country. In case those who didn't listen to what Steve Brown told them about this, 'we're telling them again"….if they don't listen to God, Steve Brown, or others who stand for "truth" (in this case Steve does) will they ever get it??

Brian March 8th, 2008

Taking the position that Abortion on demand will never stop or be overturned via a political decision, is an "ends justifies the means" type of logic. It goes something like, " since we can't "make a difference" with it in terms of voting or picketing etcc….then the issue is no longer warranted as an issue! If it's an issue which goes vs. God's law in epidemic proportion, it certainly is an issue…regardless of what anyone can do about it…..someday God will do something about it…..b/c He still believes in holding people accountable for sin…unlike others. So, one has moral choices within the candidates running, for better or for worse with the other issues, just b/c this one isn't getting the press time it should to a desensitized public, doesn't make it a non issue….what matters to God, matters to the real Christian!! : ))

Christov Using Windows March 8th, 2008

Here's something I've been thinking about, off and on, for years:
Does opposition to abortion or being "Pro-Life" mean anything more for the Evangelical than being "Pro-Birth?"

Now, I'm opposed to abortion, it's the ritual slaughter of the innocents - almost a religious rite of human sacrifice the spilling of which blood has horrific spiritual and creation-box consequences.

But I've seen enough abused and neglected infants and toddlers to know that birth alone is not sufficient.

Brian March 8th, 2008

Being irresponsible for one's own actions takes all kinds of forms. Seems people neglect responsibility on almost every front when it comes to children. Sin is just as pervasive at these levels for kids born to parents with good intentions (or without intent) which says alot about today's fallen culture as apposed to the societal involvement or help of the Church community….(or lack thereof).

Great point to bring up Christov….in a society which blames everything and everyone else for their own problems….like no other culture which has existed before. We're illiminating the working class jobs in America in exchange for the sweatshops overseas to feed the greed of the elitists (who probably control our nation economically anyway), the FDIC is bracing up with bilions in reserve as if to bail out some very large banks, the Fed is printing more money that it ever has in the history of our country to fill the broke banks for a seemingly last breath of lending before the Euro get's adopted as the nations top currency!! (already accepted in some parts) which will continue to cause inflation at rates never before seen in America!! We're heading into uncharted territory, much in the way the Roman Empire did during it's last decade…..the moral climate was very similar in the last few years leading to it's demise. I think we're in for some real big event changes over the next 5 years!!….whoever becomes president, they will most likely have deal with an economy that never really had a chance handed to them to fix…..and will get blamed for it in our victim oriented society. We may not be getting more mercy, it may be time for some justice from God….and actually, it's been a long time coming.

G Dog March 9th, 2008

I think George Bush is one of the worst presidents the country has ever had, if not the worst. He has drove the country into the ditch with his bad decisions and incompetence. When Bush started, gas was like 1.20 and now it is almost 4 dollars and 5 bucks a gallon if you happen to be in the wrong place of California. And have you seen the price of milk and eggs among other things? What the heck?? Bush has been playing games, and burning the economic candle at both ends - borrowing huge amounts from China and at the same time cutting taxes (not that I am in favor of taxes). Why don't I do that? I will go take six months off from work and get 50 credit cards so I can go live the life of luxury and say to my self that life is greeeeat! Well the economy has been a George Bush house of cards and now the price has to be paid. Enter economic hard times and the R-Word… AND don't even get me started on the value of the US Dollar that has taken a severe beating because of the manipulation. Can't we get a real fiscal conservative with a brain to run the country??

And about the Bush Speaking thing. I was watching something about Bush on tv that was before his presidency. The man could actually speak before he became president. I think he is on drugs or something.. maybe crazy meds cause of how badly he botched the Iraq war.

Point being is that Bush is incompetent and spends worse than a drunk liberal. He has sent this country on the road to bankruptcy, and generations will have to pay the huge cost for his stupid decisions.

And another thing, why are people so mad at McCain? ok, he is a tad old and may tip over at any second, but I don't think he would be a bad choice for president.

In summary, George Bush = bad and incompetent. John McCain = pretty good choice for president, so John McCain gets my vote! Go McCain!

PS: Britney Spears ROCKS!!!

Charles Curtis March 9th, 2008

I think you're wrong about GWB. I think history will prove this.

The guy has made mistakes and hasn't done enough or much of anything to combat big oil….but then so has all the presidents prior to him.

That isn't popular, but it doesn't matter. I think he's been the most bold, honest and principled president we've had since I can remember.

So far, all the criticism about him has been general or prejorative, without any substance, other than poor speaking abilities, which I agree. I also agree he's made mistakes, and particularly in Iraq. The part the critics won't admit or even consider are the bigger potential mistakes made by Bill, Gore, Kerry or even McCain…or anyone else, had they been OJT during 2001 on.

Not very popular opinion, but then who cares?

Brian March 9th, 2008

Good points G dog, the "core rate" of inflation quoted by the govt. is said to be a tad over 3%…..but….what that doesn't include is gas, food, insurance rates (including health insur). Everything is spun as if all is as it should be……and when everyone finally gets desensitized with the R word….they'll have to come to terms with a D word. Bush has outspent every President (even adjusted for inflation) which has preceded, and accomplished so very little…..much in the wake of his former corp. disasters in the real working world. It defies the very essence of Big spending Democrats, who never even came close to the record spending of George Bush Jr……who in my opinion lives up to his "Jr." in everything he does. I suppose being lifelong pals with the Bin laden family and being born with a silver foot….errrr…spoon in his mouth does have it's priveleges… however, and at least McCain has felt "real world" pain and sacrifice unlike any other candidate left in the playing field. I voted for McCain in 2000, and wish the special interest "swiftboat" of his own party hadn't sunk him then…..as I recall, He was wanting to spend more time checking into the WMD claim….and who knows, maybe Iraq would have been handled differently….without a Neo Con in office. I liked McCain better when he was at odds with the Neo Cons of the party, instead he played right into their hands….and now wants to commit more and more troops to Iraq….calling for a larger budget, a knee jerk war error which has cost nearly 4000 US troop lives, and maimed or injured some 30,000! Many of the injured return for additonal time since our troop support is so low…..Hello….note to John…as long as Iraq serves as a calling card for the US Military, very few will be signing up….get it??? McCain has been all over the board when it comes to Policy. An interesting article regarding this can be found at….
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080303_what_john_mccain_should_know/

Polls show that America wants to be done with Iraq. McCain sounds as like He thinks we can contain and control the region…for thousands or years it's been this way….at what price is the war on terror worth?? We don't even get most of our Oil from this part of the world….and terrorists??? They've always been around, always will be around….and there are more political regimes now that support terror, (like the Chinese and Soviet weapons sold to our "enemies") seems we will be broke fighting terror before those wars will ever get the chance to be won! Our business in China actually helps them develop more and more weapons to sell to terrorist nations so they can kill American troops….why isn't this being called out??

While I agree with you about George W being incompetent….I'm not so sure about any of the other candidates. I think many out there feel the same way. One way for John McCain to sweep this election though, would be to change his policy on Iraq, and the "what's next in the war on terror" venue Cheney and fellow bureacratic Neocons decided was best… a war which will break us economically trying to fight. Bin laden has yet to be found, or if they ever did, would they dare ever announce it?? This would make millions sense the 9/11 tragedy avenged….and call for an even harder line to stop fighting a misdirected senseless war in a region which will we are much better at "supporting Isreal" rather than fighting it for them.

Alot of this rests on how much you actually trust the Government?? I suppose my issue is that I know that I don't….and wonder how so many can so easily put their faith in the Power of Regime Politics. Sometimes what you think you have….is just another flavor of what's already out there, and the faith of all those founding fathers doesn't really seem to mean that much to those who "serve" (or is it we that serve them?) as our leaders in Govt. God is sovereign. Perhaps, America's grace period has just expired, and now it's time for her to be judged for her wickedness?? here come that Euro Currency!!

Brian March 9th, 2008

Stats of casualties can be found at;
http://www.warcomeshome.org/

These are actually a bit higher. Can you imagine the price of aid, medical treatment, rebuilding? I hope America has learned it's lesson. For those of you who maintain that we fight there in Iraq so it doesn't get here…..you've been duped again. Our Mexican borders have been wide open for millions of illegals (and terrorists alike) to enter our country and we actually place our OWN border patrol in prison for trying to keep them out! Next time you think we are "safer"….think again….they just might already be here!

Brian March 9th, 2008

Take the quiz….http://www.warcomeshome.org/quiz

Charles Curtis March 10th, 2008

I don't believe it is corect correlation to compare border safety to what we are doing in the Middle East.

I agree that we are lax with border control. I also agree we have made errors in Iraq.

But, having said that, we had a serious choice to make in 2001 and 2003….do we get militarily pro-active in the Middle East or try using diplomacy? Diplomacy is a joke, IMO. Bargaining with people who want you Muslim or dead, is just a way of biding time and passing the buck, rather than solving problems.

We live in a fallen world and until Jesus consumates His Kingdom over all other realms, we will always struggle between chaos and tyranny, tipping one way or the other barring God super naturally maintaining a balance despite us, like He has over the recent past. America is no different than Rome, Carolingian, Merovingian, Spanish or English empires.

George Bush made mistakes and has flaws. But the emotional ferver and lack of grace towards this one man is beyond bizare. The fact is, most critics have no idea what they are talking about and really have no good answers, reflecting a lack of knowledge. In fact, my own understanding is limited, other than what I get from Marines who come back from tours. We like being fed and we are all addicted to adrenaline, without regard to knowledge. I think that is the deeper problem than either the war or the current president.

Hubie March 10th, 2008

Wow! Steve! This blog has attracted more response than a good looking nude woman preacher would!!

Just wanted to point out. The US Navy and US Military for that matter are not the most powerful/largest in the world. According to the National Defense Report, we are third, behind China and Russia. Now… technology wise; we kick some serious booty. I can just see ol' Patrick Henry now: "Give me Quality or give me death!".

Keep up the Good Work Steve and when you are elected President; I'd like to be your Defense Department Advisor. You think about that!

And as for all of the Obama/Hillary Supporters out there…. c'mon, they are both Pro-Choice. Get a backbone will you puuuleease?

Tim March 10th, 2008

"So called christians arguing from a point of view which has nothing to do with God…"that" is what is really asinine. I wonder what God thinks about your "ungodly" conclusions??"

I'm going to just chuckle that you are not only questioning my Christianity but also not addressing any of my points except to say that being "practical" is not Christian enough for you.

And I disagree with Steve about societal law here. To be "even more cynical" as you would put it, I think that this is all just an ego trip on the part of Christians everywhere. To say that "we outlawed abortion" when it doesn't stop abortion is pointless. Why do that? Why insist on it? Isn't it all just a way to placate the fact that we aren't really doing anything to change people's hearts? Instead it's just much easier to vote and claim that fills our quota of how we should be changing society. I think it's the devil's best distraction - get people thinking that politics will bring people to Jesus instead of loving actual human beings into the Kingdom.

And that brings us to the ultimate question here - what is your goal? To make American law reflect what you think Christian society ought to look like? That isn't my goal and isn't what I think Christians should be about. But rest assured we can both disagree on that and still be Christians

Tim March 10th, 2008

One other thing - you didn't address the point about Republicans that we voted in because they were pro-life not doing anything about when they had plenty of time to. They realize that if they actually do something about it, they won't have an issue anymore with which to "rally the troops." Again you will call me cynical but fool us once, shame on them, fool us twice shame on us.

Hubie March 10th, 2008

Tim, Whether or not we ever overturn Roe-v-Wade is not the question for right now. The question for right now, today, is "How does voting for a candidate who is diametrically opposed to the purpose of God, going to affect you?" How will you justify supporting someone who support the murder of innocents to Jesus? Try this experiment. Look in the Mirror and pretend you are talking to Jesus and explain to him how Obama's and Hillary's support of the Pro-Abortion (NOT Pro-Choice, it's a Baby!) agenda did not factor into your voting. Hey, if free health care is more important to you than the sancitity of life….. well you understand; you're just kidding yourself aren't you?

Paul March 10th, 2008

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm screaming in case you couldn't tell. AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim March 10th, 2008

I understand what you're saying, but what about all the other stuff? How can you justify looking in the mirror and voting for someone who will further send His creation (this planet) into further environmental disaster? How can you defend someone who will continue a "war" that isn't justified, and who will further cause a rift between ourselves and the rest of the world? Especially if they see us as a "Christian" nation, what damage does that do to the Kingdom of God? I'm not saying there are easy answers, but I believe that there is no candidate who will not screw up or do something opposed to God's will in some way… I'm just suggesting that our priority on abortion when it's not something that the president can have near the effect on as he can in other areas is misguided.

I'm not saying that I like abortion, I hate it! But I also hate using that as the only qualifications for a guy to run our country - I think that's irresponsible. Now if you agree with everything else McCain stands for and his stance on abortion is just the icing on the cake, then that's fine, I have no quibble with that. But to rest the entirety of why I should vote for someone on one issue that he really doesn't have control over is something I can't do.

And again, how can you look in the mirror and vote for someone who was pro-life in the Senate at the time when Republicans controlled everything, but then didn't do anything about it? That was the best opportunity that we have ever had to actually do something from a legal standpoint, but it didn't happen. How can you trust that he's not just playing anyone who is a Christian for their vote when he's clearly displayed that it's not a priority to him?

Charles Curtis March 10th, 2008

STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS

Looking at abortion issue from the standpoint that if we don't outlaw it, it happens legally and if we outlaw it, it still happens, but illegally, misses one important thing…it's morally wrong. The thing about moral questions is that they are true or false, regardless of how things work out by the numbers. I believe it is morally wrong. So, I vote that way. It's a priority for me to vote my conscience. Morality isn't a private matter. To argue it is, makes it public. Whether abortions happen legally or illegally, they're still wrong. The problem, aside the fact we operate with a reduced value for knowledge, is virtue is replaced with rights. Virtue has never been a part of the pro-choice side…..that's because virtue has no place in it. Instead, it has been about rights. Rights have become our absolutes in which everything else revolves. I have the right to ignore my child. But I produce a disfunctional child in the process. And because of that, we are the most depressed generation in our nation's history, with the most suicides….prescribed anti-depressants….looking for a medical solution to it. And it keeps spiralling.

Who do we turn to? The State? The State is a self-preserving machine that operates by force and cohersion. Good luck with that! I don't care how persuasive your candidate sounds or looks (which is all that matters these days), if you put that sort of trust in their hands, you will be on Paxal in no time.

As a homeschooling parent, I can tell you that it isn't because of evolution that we homeschool (in fact, I insist my child learn evolution alongside the alternative)…or that there is no legal way to talk about Jesus unless it is about an unbiblical reference….we homeschool because the State has no idea how to produce a virtuous person. In fact, they have no idea what kind of people they are producing at all. And when there are school shootings, they turn to psychiatrists and bio-chemists to see what's wrong with the brain to cause these things….and we keep on hitting walls in the dark, blaming whoever we can and have no idea what we are talking about, in the process.

The makeup man is more important that the speechwriter, so I have no confidence in the process, even though i still participate. I have no idea where we are headed, but I am sure no one else does either. They fake it. And due to postmodern philo…the fact no meta-narrative universally applies to everyone at all times, everything we are engaging here has nothing to do with knowledge but instead is simply rhetoric and opinion: a bunch of clanging meta-narratives lost in space and time.

It would be great if Jesus came today….if just to avoid political adverts.

Tim March 10th, 2008

Ok this is the last thing I'll say today about this

I'm not saying that abortion is anything less than morally wrong. But what I am saying is that I'm not voting for a new conscience, I'm not voting for a new savior, I'm not voting for a new moral compass. I'm voting for the office of president. I'm voting for a fallen human who will attempt to do something about the positions they are taking. And in making my choice on whom to vote for I have to consider whether or not an issue or position is "actionable" or not.

I think it's pretty clear that abortion is not an "actionable" item.

I also think it's pretty clear where McCain's priorities lie, and they aren't with passing laws banning different types of abortions, or with even making a pro-life message a priority. You have to consider that pro-life shouldn't just be about abortion, it should be about being pro-life in every way, including decisions about war, the environment, health care, etc.

I'm not saying Obama's perfect; he definitely isn't. But equating voting for McCain with doing God's perfect will seems pretty presumptuous to me…and Charles is right, if we are putting our faith in whoever the next president is to fix what ails our world, then we will be sorely disappointed however we vote.

Brian March 10th, 2008

Wow….TIm….I think we finally agree on something!! Govt. is corrupt. and becoming more so with each regime. I get the feeling that somebody else owns us with each passing administration, and the one's really behind the scene, (who'd rather be there) control the "delegates…..interest rates, Oil Prices…and all the other implications which ensure the candidate (in a gymnastical 2 party system) that fits….gets elected. I am with you on that nothing really changes party to party, term to term (can anybody say limits for Senators and Congressmen/women?).

As is was stated a few posts back, America is waaaay behind the times militarily (good thing we can still be the jestor for the world's entertainment), dumb enough to build up nations who take our billions of Democracy to build an even better military (check out Russia and China's latest advancements in MIlitary Strike Capability). Our "beloved" Govt. has an underground city (almost the the size of DC) that can store "all the Presidents Men (and all their favorite women) for years and years to come in the event of a nuclear fallout. For those of you who still believe in a system which truly cares about "serving the interests of the country", Are you so sure about what our countries interests really are?? I don't want to spoil it for you…..we still have to Honor God with rendering Ceasar what is Ceasars…..and God what is Gods. I think we've all been held captive by a system that has become far and away from what it was designed to be from the beginning. Does it alarm anyone that we spend more building up a Communist Chinese (along with Russia) Country who murders more children by "law" than any other nation? And we talk about abortion as a "choice" in this nation?? They want us to take a side, pick a popular stand….either way, those reasons are very seldom "actionable" exactly as Tim states.

Paying a tax on income was never a part of a "legal right of Govt"…..it was voluntary….and states so in the constitution on behalf of a choice of a company or corporation…not individuals!! It's all become a lawyer game of loopholes. If you can pay enough to play….(like Wesley Snipes) you can exempt yourself from having to pay…and buy yourself a "get out of jail card"!

I think all Christians need to wise up. As time goes by, I am ever more so resigned to the desire to spend less and less time looking to a Worldly Leader promising no new taxes….or cuts galore, or programs for everyone to bequethe a regime probably owned by a foreign Govt. group of Elitists, as a means for instilling hope in a Godlessly lead nation. Honestly, it's a real shambles…..and Christians have been pawned off and used for votes. But awwwwe…..well get our "way" next time we say. I think our Govt is allot more wicked than anyone really wants to believe. I'd rather turn a blind eye and not believe some of the things we do overseas in the name of "democracy". The 3rd Worlding of America is well on its' way….and if it weren't for the principle of my conscience and desire to "honor the Grand ole system"….I probably wouldn't care to vote anymore at all.

All successful Washington Politicians are liars….even the most honest ones get "bought out" or put to shame for standing up on principle so they don't get re-elected (ie Bill McCollum). It's all about favors and paybacks….everything's negotiable….even God to these folks is just a bargaining chip….don't kid yourself by having read some propaganda biography which outlines their lives like regular people…..it's all about power and personal gain to these poeple….and they find ways to make you to do (and think) exactly that!!

Just my 2 cents…..(it's really all I have left!) I suppose I will vote for…..someone I really and truly believe in (write in) …..since no one is really very actionable on what they campaign on anyway…..I thank you TIm, for bringing this to light…..you had me at "Where McCain's priorities lie"!!! Does not your gut tell you how true this really is??? Funny how a billion dollars gets raised (pooof) just to campaign for all the candidates…..then, the one with the most money (and I thought it was toys) in the end….wins!!! It's morally bankrupt….ooops….The Governor of NY has just been ratted out!! Gotta go.

Brian March 10th, 2008

Sometimes "Cynical"…..is an over reaction to what no one else sees as being true….but really is. Points well taken Tim. Most folks aren't ready for truth which goes any deeper than dinner conversation, or might require them to make major (or even small) changes in their nice and tidy belief structure which provides them with a "security" and "comfort zone" they've grown to accept, expect, and to love. One's angst and anger at what may not seem true (but is) seems so obvious even when so many are oblivious. I can only take so much of it myself, before I find myself wishing I hadn't taken that "red pill" (assuming you've seen the movie "The Matirx") afteralll!!! …….love truth??? sometimes I hate it….and would rather just go on eating that nice juicy steak in a reality I know doesn't exist!