Adam Roper August 1st, 2007

Hmm. This is interesting. (by "this" i mean how you describe the act of smoking "after a hard day").

I feel the same about coffee- Coffee that is, of course, fair trade/freshly ground/made in a french-press.

The taste of it is rather euphoric, as it puts me in a place of quiet understanding that, otherwise, i would wrestle to find.

(And then the high of the coffee kicks in, and I drift into an anxiety, asking questions that I don't know how to answer…then I feel embarrassed about asking them later).

I guess we all have our vices- our simple vices which momentarily thin the veil between creation and creator. when i taste coffee, I can (somewhat) understand the words "It is good", spoken of God's masterpiece.

Christov August 1st, 2007

Dude, if pressed by the big-givers, you could just say Eric or the web-guy messed up and used a picture of the late Dr. Gene Scott in one of his rare lucid, quiet moments.

Actually, that's who I first thought of (Gene Scott, not Eric or the web-guy) when I saw the pipe photo, supra, upon the renovated website's um, revolving jpeg masthead. When I was a kid in P.V., we'd get stoned, or drunk, and sit up goofing on Dr. G.S., watching on some big-number UHF channel.

Anyway, I advise you to defer indefinitely the gratification of a live-feed video-blog ministry on your local public access channel while puffing the briar and sporting a floppy cap.

Pax,

C.

Angel August 2nd, 2007

I love Steve Brown! Real, honest, true, postive moving spirit, motivating force God. I say what the hey, be and do you, what God created you to be and do. Personally, I saw the photo and sighed. What an exhaling moment to know, that I am not the only "perfect" Christian that enjoys and good smoke every now and again. God is good, and He loves me and you, no matter what you do. Perfection is what I strive to reach and fail to hold daily. I know that my goodness and not my godliness, and to me Steve Brown is as close to godliness than any - looking on the outside, pretending to be "sin-free" Christian I know. I will say it again, I love you Steve Brown. Please continue to motivate me to be just like you when I grow up and love God the way you know how and teach us to be how to be in Christ as he is in us.
All Praise to the Creator,
Peace, love and hair grease
Cincinnati, Oh

señor jefe August 3rd, 2007

The line I always heard was, "Smoking won't send you to hell. But it WILL make you smell like you just got back…"

Unfortunately, most of the folks in church who would chastise you for smoking are 75lb overweight. My pastor always says, "If smoking will send you to hell, so will two pieces of pie"

Steve, if you ever do quit smoking, I hope your decision has nothing to do with religions condemnation, and everything to do with making the right choice for your physical health… (with that being said, I'll let you know when I give up eating fast-food)

Maxx August 3rd, 2007

Dr. Brown;
As for smoking, you've blogged that you consider smoking as your last little sin, but come, that's not true. It may be your last habitual sin, but not your last sin. I too struggle with smoking over the last five years after an encounter with God. May I make my point?
Smoking is not about religious do's and do not. It is a serious addiction. It's no joke and its not funny. I know that smoking a pipe feels like C.S. Lewis and the like and why wouldn't one wish to be associated with such men?
I don't feel that when I smoke. I have to look at it from a different perspective. Would I lead a youth group camp retreat and begin a foot washing service with a cigarette dangling from my mouth? I'm sorry, but regardless of self-righteous people, I couldn't do it.
Smoking is not about sin, per se, but what of the example we are to set that must not cause our brother to stumble? My smoking has caused several to stumble and I have reached the point that if I have to wear a patch for the rest of my life; I will.
I have a daughter. I do not want her to take up smoking. How am I to convince her by my example if I am lighting up in front of her everyday? We have "babies," in our midst, and many times even the "mature," don't understand.
But, they criticized C. Spurgeon as well.
To wit: Christianity is about image, regardless. People must be able to see through our transparency to see Jesus. The portrait they see is the one we paint. That, is harder than unbelievers will ever understand.
Enjoy your broadcasts very much. Please keep the faith. Great material!
Maxx (U.S. Navy, retired)

Adam Roper August 4th, 2007

…and, i think anything in excess will kill you. too much coffee will give me a heart attack, too much beer will make me lazy, and too much sadness will make me a writer.

(Edgar Allen Poe must have had it bad).

Charles August 4th, 2007

Hey, I say smoke 'em if you got 'em.

(I'm not sure if smoking is as huge a habit as emoticons)

Don Sturgill August 5th, 2007

I guess the main thing I love about you, Steve, is your ability to admit the truth. Isn't that a funny idea, "admit the truth"? It would seem that we would run to the truth–but, not us; we have to have our noses rubbed in reality, before we'll even allow that it is possibly truth. Incredible.

For me, I have found that my worrying about an obvious sin only serves to divert my attention from the myriad others. It's back to the proverb of "a thousand hacking at the branches of evil, to one chopping on the root."

And the root is, I don't trust God. I am afraid, scared, lonely, terrified, inept, and… without him…I'm screwed. It is one of those "antinomes" you spoke of this weekend, Steve. I need Him more than life, but I push Him away like death.

"Think about it."

Wishing you all the best. Thanks for taking the time to visit with me at Seven Rivers.

Don

Bruce August 7th, 2007

I must say i never even knoticed the pipe i was too busy remembering how steve used to look like when i first heard him on GOD radio. .
I have smoked for many many many years then quit for 20 years then started again, never felt bad about it until……..
i am now on day 72 of the great re-quit lol
You go steve and by the way it doesn't say tho shall not smoke

Uri Brito August 7th, 2007

I must say, I am as disappointed at you as D.L. Moody was disappointed at Spurgeon when he saw that he was smoking a cigar.
D.L. Moody asked: Brother Spurgeon, don't you think you smoke too much? Spurgeon replies: Brother, the only way I would be smoking too much would be if I had two cigars in my mouth at once.
So, shame on you Steve. Can't you handle two pipes at once.
May your tribe increase.
By the way, thanks for the encouraging note on my Theology of Ministry II paper.

Lindy Davidson August 7th, 2007

Steve,
You're right. I mean, if you didn't smoke, you'd be like Mary Poppins–practically perfect in every way. Where would that leave the rest of us sniveling scoundrels? Jesus would look at us and say, "Why can't you be more like Steve?" But the pipe, ahhh, it is the great equalizer to my pride and arrogance. Thank you for smoking!

Larry August 8th, 2007

Liberal, conservative, sinner, I am sorry I think you all missed the point. Obviously, Steve was just trying to look scholarly.

Michael August 20th, 2007

Steve,
As a Reformed Baptist, I feel that I must smoke a pipe. If I don't, I am sure that I will feel as though the other Reformed brethren, esp. those at seminary, will look down upon me.
Therefore, I recommend that you at least give up those foul aromatic tobaccos and get with the program: English blends are for the truly saved by grace
Here's hoping that you repent of your beastly aromatic blends and join us truly saintly brethren smoking the tobacco(s) of the Saints!
Love the broadcasts, in all seriousness…

Casey August 28th, 2007

"So I announced my fall from grace from the pulpit. I said, 'Just so you know, I've started smoking again. Let us pray:'"

This made me laugh so hard. I love you, Steve!

Jim Lee September 6th, 2007

Hey Steve/ here I finally get over to one of your blogs and I find you have quoted me extensively and given me credit! I must go out and celebrate with a big cigar! Can't do the pipe thing- I'm too messy and would burn a hole in my clothes. But I must say to this forum here that the fact that you were so "in-your-face" free was what got my attention nine years ago, and resulted in setting me really free after a lifetime of trying to be a good Pharisee. I love you for that, Steve. But you should rebuke "Christov" who said you looked like Gene Scott. Gene Scott was an idiot and a twit, whereas you are just a little weird.

Tin Man September 6th, 2007

Steve,

From a guy who went from a born again independent fundamental Baptist to Foursquare fellowship and then became an Assembly of God Pastor, all in thirty years time…

I say hang in there still is hope for you… "Ha"

If diet soda kills you, and the obesity of an evangelist stops the heart, then I'm pretty sure a pipe now and then isn't going to send you to hell.

Take care and enjoy.

TM

Steve W... September 6th, 2007

Bro. Steve… Steve here. "Pastor Steve" (hence my avoidance of a last name). When I saw your photo, I "high-fived" my own shadow. Yesssssssss! And now that I've read your blog, I hugged it and helped carry it off the field. Three years after my salvation, I gave 'em up, pipe included. And since as a "good Baptist", to pick one up one day before retirement would be, shall we say, "career limiting". But short of becoming fully Reformed, I'd make a statement of Grace by joining you. I think secretly it is this one little "longing" that has made me such a dedicated Tolkien "fan". No, it's not your "one sin"… at least as far as I can tell (we Baptists do have an "inferior theology" I'm told)….

Keep up the great work. I love it! Blessings….

PS - I'll join you with a bowl-full sometime, oh, 17 or 18 years from now… unless the Rapture comes sooner! (If the trumpet surprises you, come find me up there where the smoke rings are rising!)…

Angela September 6th, 2007

Steve,
Thank you for your honesty - and I love your blog readers' responses; some of them quite witty indeed. I smoke to keep myself humble - that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I agree with senor jefe: those who condemn tobacco users are the same who abuse food and gossip (and probably a whole lot of other "hidden" vices.) My vice is quite visible, ergo a ready-made target for Pharisaical comment.

You are loved by many indeed, my friend. (You'll come around on the women as pastors thing.)

Jim Lee September 6th, 2007

Tobacco is a filthy weed
The devil sowed its awful seed
It stains your teeth and burns your clothes
And makes a chimney of your nose.

But if from it you should abstain
And you find that much weight you gain
Remember those who smoke or spit
May see you as the hypocrite.

There will always be something to give us an excuse to criticize others and to show that "we" are not as bad as "they." As Steve has often said, a major indicator of how fallen we are is our propensity for self-righteousness.

(The first half of the above poem is not mine. I have seen it on restroom walls ever since the second grade.)

rev. michael reardon September 7th, 2007

not for nothing but i do believe that there are far more important troubles out there to be talked about then tobacco' we are killing each other with non sense..! as for me , there is no more room in my mind or life for political correctness' however there is a great need for biblical correctness

blessings

abner Clerveaux September 7th, 2007

Steve,
It's sad to see how many christians are trying to justify the vice of smoking. Yes we all sin and come short of the glory of God; however, God wants us all to hate sin and live a life of sanctification. The christian's body is supposed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit, we must not defile it nor destroy it. We know that cigarette has no nutritional nor medicinal value and can only defile and destroy the body. My prayer for you, Steve and all the others who think like you, is that you break from that deadly and dreadfull habit.

Abner Clerveaux
Pompano Beach, Florida

Jim Lee September 7th, 2007

Well…. yeah Abner you are right. It's the same answer I used to give. But it makes me wonder how old you are and how long you have been a Christian. If we hang around long enough, and try to be honest about it, we may learn enough about our own sinfulness that we aren't too ready to pray about everybody else's sins because we are so aware of our own.
Plus, we learn to be more gentle with talking to others about their sins, because we must first accept them as they are. I used to have a picture in my mind of a God who folded His arms in rejection of me until I did everything right. Frankly, I resented Him for being that way, until finally He said, "That's not me! I love you and want you to come to me just the way you are, you don't have to change anything!"
I have changed more since I learned that I didn't have to than in all the times I thought that He demanded it. I just encourage you to be sure to try not to come across as better than anybody else. If there's anything in your speech that even sounds like self-righteousness or judgmentalism, even if you don't mean it that way, people will tune you out.

Shawn B September 9th, 2007

Welcome to the real world, you mean you were just joking everytime you said you were perfect? I say good for you, lets smoke a pipe together sometime.

Troy September 10th, 2007

Abner, I certainly understand the reasoning of treating the body as a temple, and if that is the decision you make in good conscience for yourself, more power to you. But just as with "meat sacrificed to idols", we should not judge others on these things. I am more concerned with a person wrestling with the things described in Galatians 5:19-21 (and similar sins). If they are too busy with those sins to worry much about the tobacco thing, that is fine with me. I think the "temple" in this case is more spiritual than physical.

I'm praying for you too, Abner.

Richard A. September 11th, 2007

Steve :

The Pipe is between You and GOD . I look at Steve Brown and I see the good things . If we only look for the bad in people that is all we will find. And before we cast the first stone we should look at our own life. I have this to say , Steve We Love You Keep up the good work.
Richard

George Kilgore JR September 12th, 2007

Steve,
I love your honesty. That is the trait of a true Christian. The Pharisees of today do not even realize that they are the stumbling blocks, not someone who admits a habit. Show me a Christian without a habit and I will show you a self-righteous liar. By the way lying is a sin. If we ever learn to preach the gospel without condemnation we will have made an accomplishment.
Peace unto you,
George

Mike Rule September 13th, 2007

Steve,
Thanks brother. I'm an itinerate counselor and teacher, and while on the road the other night I had a fellow take me to a cigar shop for a cigar and a beer. I had to pass the cigar cuz I have been speaking 12 to 14 hours a day all week, and my throat couldn;t stand the stress. But the beer was refreshing. As we shared our lives together, Christ ministered powerfully to this man and he was encouraged in his faith.

A few nights before that I was standing outside a restaraunt with another brother who was smoking a cigarette - this man has walked away from everything to pursue the pleasures world. I prayed that the Lord would give me a way to break the ice with him, and He did. I bummed a cigarette and we began to talk. that one act opened the door to a two hour counseling session at Starbucks - over coffee - in which Jesus moved powerfully in the man's life.

I am glad we are justified by Christ, and we do not have to justify ourselves. Thanks for being real and honest brother! I recognize Jesus in you. Shalom!

Morgan September 17th, 2007

Just what do you put in that pipe Steve…..aromatic can cover an aweful lot of ground. Would cannibus maximus be allowed?

Dave Cook September 23rd, 2007

Steve,

It seems I am often a dollar short when thinking to put two cents in. By the time I respond, a controversy is old news.

I grew up in a liberal denomination that considered almost nothing sin. Smoking was just as OK as was drinking, and (as I found out when I grew up) even wife swapping.

The first I knew about smoking being a sin was when I heard a well meaning fundamentalist evangelist preaching "throw your sinful tobacco up here on stage. After all, Jesus didn't smoke." The first thought that entered my mind was "True, but He didn't drive a car, either."

I started smoking at the end of sixth grade. In the middle of ninth grade, I became a Christian, and of course, quit smoking. Within a few years, I had developed quite a legalistic library of what Christians do, and don't do.

Out of the blue, I was smacked in the face with a dilemma. Knowing Corrie Ten Boom was recognized as a model Christian, I read her book, The Hiding Place. Corrie talked fondly of her father smoking his pipe. I had great difficulty with this. I had quit smoking because I was a Christian. So, how could Corrie Ten Boom's father smoke, and Corrie refer to him as a Christian, with no apologies? I had to either accept the man as Corrie had, or condemn Corrie along with her father because she did not say he was not a Christian because he smoked. Had I continued being led astray with that legalism, I would have had to condemn everyone, and been twice the son of hell as everyone else. I didn't like that idea.

As a first attempt, I considered excusing Corrie's father because he lived in a day when the dangers of smoking were not known. But this did not satisfy my "theology." Sin would always be sin. I had to question why (aside from the scripture that your body is the Temple) it was wrong to smoke. As others have voiced in this section, I had to think about why it wasn't wrong to eat an ice cream cone, or drink coffee, or chew gum, or to taste anything that was not of direct nutritional value to the "temple". I had to find something more than this scripture. If taking care of your temple meant only eating or drinking for nutritional value, I was (and continue to be) a dead man. And, I would be a chief hypocrite as well as a chief sinner.

By the grace of God (God helps those in spite of themselves), He started reminding me of freedom (freedom from sin, not freedom in sin). Jesus said it's not what goes into a body that defiles a man, but what comes out (things you taste go in, don't they?) God told Peter to rise, kill, and eat ceremonially unclean animals (and, thank You, Father, for crab and lobster). And, why do we submit ourselves to (the world's) decrees, such as do not handle, do not taste, and do not touch (found in a little letter to the Colossians)?

Next, I was reminded how I had started smoking. When first confronted by a peer to smoke, I did not want to say I did not. I acted as if I was already a smoker. I wanted to be accepted, and to be thought of as cool. I knew my parents would not approve of me smoking, so I had to sneak around during the whole period of my life I did smoke.

I finally concluded that smoking was sin for me, not because of the actual physical act of smoking, but because of the pride of life in thinking I was cool, and because I was disobedient to my parents by smoking. I never really liked the taste of cigarettes, or most cigars. I must admit though, I actually enjoyed the taste of a pipe now and then. I couldn't condemn smoking as a sin directly from a sin perspective. But honestly, most folks I talk with had started smoking for the same reasons I had.

I hope friends would encourage me to not eat too many ice cream cones if they see me doing so. I hope my dentist will suggest I cut back on chewing too much gum if he sees trouble ahead. I hope I cut back on coffee when I find myself not being able to sleep at night. I hope the reasons why things are pointed out in my life are because people care about me, not because I'm a sinner condemned to hell if I don't clear their check off list.

When the dangers of smoking (and, as far as that goes, having too much sugar, alcohol, and blah blah woof woof) are now fairly well known, I assume smokers know that as well. If I could be of assistance to a smoker to help them quit, I would. I would never encourage someone to start smoking because I felt it was not a sin. But only they know if they are "sinners" in this area, and it's not in my instruction book to carry out an inquisition. I'm sure there is a percentage of smokers that truly enjoy the taste, and may not even be addicted to have to smoke when they really do not intend to simply enjoy the taste.

Peace, Love, and Freedom
Dave

Oh, and for the record, I have no reason, and have no desire, to start smoking again.

Carroll September 29th, 2007

Steve,
This is not about smoking, except perhaps to say that I teach stop smoking classes for the government & do know that to stop smoking is one of the most difficult things most people (who desire to) - will ever do.

This is about a photo caption of the head of Barry Bonds on the body of an exceptionally very thin live person. My point is: God does love this thin person - who is made in His image. I have thought about this for several weeks.

This is the second time I've been on the "Steve Ect." site. I have loved the refreshing Key Life radio program over the years, especially when I could no longer receive the radio station signal. I'm still listening.

A Fellow Christian,
Carroll

Tim October 2nd, 2007

Abner:

You may want to read that passage about your body being the temple of the Holy Spirit. You'll find that he clearly says that there is "one sin that is against the body" which he describes as 'the temple of the Holy Spirit" and that isn't smoking; it's sexual immorality… He clearly says that all other sins are not against the body….so let's leave smoking out of the list, shall we?

And no, he doesn't even say smoking is a sin.

And if we are to avoid harm to the body, wasn't Christ the greatest offender of all?

abner Clerveaux October 10th, 2007

To my brothers and sisters,

I never meant to say that smoking is a sin in itself; however, you'll agree with me it's a vice and a bad habit. Why you think that smoking is prohibited almost everywhere? Smokers are outcasts. As christians are'nt we called to be light and salt? shouldn't we be the role models for the world?
Paul put it best when he says that everything is permitted but not everything is useful. I am not against cigarette and cigar smoking only but against the fast food industry and anything that will harm the body which is a precious gift from God.
Those who abuse their bodies should be prepared to pay the price in exorbitant healthcare, they shouldn't expect others to pick up the tab.

Anthony October 19th, 2007

I just don't get it I guess.

Why is smoking a sin? There's no verse in scripture that ever states that consuming anything (food or whatever) is sinful even if it's the least bit unhealthy for you. Quite the opposite, Jesus stated that nothing that goes into the mouth makes a person unclean. Perhaps it's the natural Pharisaical nature of mankind that we make our own rules about holiness and godliness for the claim of moral superiority.

emily October 29th, 2007

My friends and family tell me to quit smoking. i hear it all the time. now a friend of mine just started again after yelling at me to quit. now she wants me to quit smoking with her. i said no way, i will quit when i am ready.

it is not what goes into a mans mouth that makes him sin, it is what comes out it.

Annette November 1st, 2007

My quit day is 12:am November 1st. So far to this day I've smoked 1 time since I've woke up and its 12 hrs later and most likely will smoke again. I'm personally sick of the odor of smoke. I recall smoking at six and 37 years later I'm a mature smoker. It's not easy to just stop. My longest stop time is just 1 complete month. Not to be gross or anything but, if I spat around that time, it was clear. The sputs now are with smokely taints. And that's why I really want to stop permanently for good. In Can you can buy bags of 200 for 10-20 bucks a pop. Thats something that keeps the addiction live and going. (sucks) I'm not a drinker like my yester years, so I guess I use that as an excuse to paint my lovely addiction to cancer puffs. I want to stop. Maybe, for my health.

MikeMcK November 1st, 2007

My dad smoked and we begged him to quit.

He died of lung cancer.

So, basically what that means is that he wanted a Lucky Strike more than he wanted to walk my sister down the aisle.

He wanted a Lucky Strike more than he wanted to see me follow in his footsteps as a Marine.

He wanted a Lucky Strike more than he wanted to stand with me when I got married.

He wanted a Lucky Strike more than he wanted to be there when my children were born.

He wanted a Lucky Strike more than he wanted to be there to support his ailing parents.

He wanted a Lucky Strike more than he wanted to be there for the ones who loved him so much.

For all of the pain he went through with his cancer, he might as well have just put a gun to his head and gotten it over with.

So, for all of you smokers out there, don't worry, things like that only happen to other people.

Erik November 1st, 2007

What? Are we a pet project of yours or something? What do you do for a living?

MikeMcK November 1st, 2007

Glad you think that's funny, Erik.

Hurt like Hell for me.

Erik November 1st, 2007

I wasn't talking about smokers being a pet project, I was talking about this website and the amount of snippy comments you're making.

Vicki Kinion November 23rd, 2007

I also smoked for alot of years. I quit and started again, like so many. My story is strong in that I even fought through stage four cancer and still couldn't quit. I cryed to God daily, and I hurt in my heart because I couldn't quit and be a better Christian, for what I thought other Christians thought. I thought I was wrong because other people thought it was ok to smoke and still love God. And it is ok to come to God as you are and God will transform you to what he needs, but…the true miracle is that when I finally stopped whinning about it to God and let him talk to me I got his help. One of my children turned 18, knew it all, moved out of the house to only God knows where, then God got my attention. I was angry and hurt and confused when God said to me, "She thinks she doesn't need you now, but, if you want to be here when she does need you…!" Steve, I never smoked another cigarette. So far it has only been three years, but my daughter, grandaughter and I talk at least once every day and see each other often. God is awesome. I guess the point is that people need to understand it's what God thinks-wants that matters, not other people. Smoking may not be a good example for other Christians, but neither is being judgmental. And I still respect you as much as I always did and I love listening to you on the radio.

thomas November 30th, 2007

(i'm not the most eloquent person in the world, so cut me some slack if my sentences don't flow smoothly from one to the other)

i've been working w/youth since i myself was a youth (19). in the 17 years since, i've learned a number of things, namely that words are words and actions are the megaphone. suppose i'm teaching my youth group guys how they should respect women and not be playas. would it help or hurt if when they got in my car, the music coming from my speakers called women (rhymes with) witches and foes? or if i stated that seldomly, but on occasion, viewed playboy? they'd forget everything i ever said about treating women w/respect and remember what i did/do. (i believe) it's all about the example we present. the world–the sane ones–doesn't expect believers to be perfect but they absolutely expect them to be different. if we partake of the same things they do, they'll see we're no different than them, and therefore, what's the point in becoming a believer if we do the same things they do? the apostle paul reminds us in 2 cor. 6 (he's referencing is. 52:11and eze. 20:34) to "come out from them and be separate". a preacher/believer who (vice) won't go to hell, but (IMO) it'll send a confusing message to whom they're sharing the gospel with.

Erik November 30th, 2007

what's the point in becoming a believer if we do the same things they do?

Knowing and being known by the source of all that is good, beautiful and holy…despite our sin. Being so humbled and grateful by that fact and experiencing the joy of our Lord’s salvation so deeply that we forget ourselves and our sin and freely love those around us…even our enemies.

it'll send a confusing message to whom they're sharing the gospel with.

Depends on which gospel you're preaching.

Vicky January 1st, 2008

I quit smoking Nov. 1975. Nov. 2006 was particularly stressful and I really wanted a cigarette. Found myself AFRAID of having one. The bondage of being afraid was far worse than having one! So, in Dec. 2006, I did.

Over the past year I've probably lit 60. Enjoyed lighting every one of them, the feel of them between my fingers, flicking the ash, although they taste like — well, never mind. I mostly lit them and put them out before they were half-way gone.

I'm still not a smoker, but I light all that I want.
And I'm wanting less and less all the time.

The best part? I'm no longer afraid that if I have a cigarette I'll be back smoking three packs a day before the end of the week, month, or year. I don't even have any cigarettes right now, and that's just fine with me.

Blessings.
And thanks for your honesty.
Peach from The Forum

Ken January 2nd, 2008

I think Romans 14 and 15 have God's view on the real subject that we are looking at. God bless you all.

Ken B January 13th, 2008

OK Steve. I've got to say that 5 years ago, it felt like your 15 minute radio show saved my life. I had a dark cloud over me and I needed some words of truth whispered in my ear. God gave me great hope through your teaching. It really saved my life in so many ways.

It is really disappointing for you to make your point or try to "blow people's minds" with the picture of that pipe in your mouth. Because I love you so much, I've got to just say, "in this area of your life…grow up and try to set an example." We know you're not perfect, but you do have a responsibity. Charles Barkley used to say that he wasn't a role model. But he is and so are you. Maybe you can turn your quiet time into loud time and fight against your addiction in the name of Jesus. (Not that you haven't already don that.) We need you around Steve, don't end your time too soon. Besides that, you don't have to set a bad example to convince us you are a sinner saved by Grace. Think about it.

Sally January 25th, 2008

I do hope you are a polite smoker. One who if others are bothered by the smoke, you go elsewhere or wait till a better time. There are too many impolite smokers who could care less whether the smoke or the smell of it bothers anyone around them.
My 2 cents-Sally

Todd January 26th, 2008

I must say I am very surprised at the calloused response from many people. Do we sin that grace my abound? So that others feel more comfortable? I dont remember the Apostle Paul saying that, lemme look at my bible again. Nope. Not there. Where there is a blatant sin, publically unashamed, there is usually more where that came from. I was once a judgmental Ebenezer Scrooge and dont wish to go back to that legalistic nature but we still need to perfect holiness in the fear of ummm God I think it says, no? But overall I love your messages and will pray for more power and encouragement in the Lord. May His blessings and annointing be upon you to strengthen and guide you! May He shelter you under his wings.
Serving the Lord with joy and gladness,
Todd

Brian January 26th, 2008

Well said Ken B!!!
This is exactly "why" he feels he needs to appear so controversial…so he can show how easy it is to be a Christian and not really have to change much. I recall S. Brown comparing "fat" as being lazy or slothful….well…just as that reasoning is "judgemental", (and I happen to agree with him, b/c the Bible makes similar comparisons) it goes counter intuitive to the message he is trying to send. Eh?? Steve is great on style, humor, and getting attention, just needs to stick to his message once he's gained your attention!

Brian January 27th, 2008

Eric states,
'Knowing and being known by the source of all that is good, beautiful and holy…despite our sin. Being so humbled and grateful by that fact and experiencing the joy of our Lord’s salvation so deeply that we forget ourselves and our sin and freely love those around us…even our enemies".

That's funny, I have a lesbian friend I work with whom she and her partner are members of a well known Church in our area, who hold the exact same "philosophy" you just espoused!!
They too wish we would just "get over their sin" and accept them for who they are, love them as "equal partner members" throughout churches all in america, not just their own!!

In the meantime, as we excuse sin and look for loopholes, this "all loving" Neo Grace philosophy and it's impact upon the church is 'acting out' with disastrous results!. …..it is this type of heresy that will usher in the allowance of same sex partnerships/marriage as the accepted "mantra" of the day). This "freedom" really is scandalous!!

I'll leave you with a verse from a ministry which I know Steve is closely associated…..

Matthew 10:34-36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law – a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Daniel January 28th, 2008

My question is when did smoking become a sin? Or rather whats the big deal? America was built on Tobacco, no one had a problem with it when the profits were rolling in. C.S. Lewis smoked and he was a christian so did J.S Bach, he wrote an essay on how it hepled him get closer to God.

If you argue against the addiction fine, but what about caffenie? That is just as addictive as tobacco. So should christians then avoid caffeine? Funny how we serve coffee in our churches…are we then feeding an addiction? Regardless of how trivial it may seem it is still an addiction.

If you don't believe me ask someone who normally drinks coffee, tea or soda what happens when they don't have some for a while they get a horrible headache….also known as a withdrawl.

So I argue we start a movement to rid our churches and lives of caffeine, because it too is an addiction and a drug… all the same verses could be applied to caffeine as well a tobacco

Whether someone smokes or not is their own business, but I think we should guard against throwing stones, because we are all equal.

No one is perfect and all sin is equally wrong before the eyes of God, therefore we are all on a level playing field. God doesn't need us, we need Him. Without Him we are nothing.

Ever told a lie? Ever strechted the truth? even embellished just a little insy-tinsy-wensy bit? Ever taken something home from the office that you didn't pay for? Ever look a little too long at a member of the opposite sex? Ever eat a little too much? Ever murder?

funny how all that looks the same to God…

Romans 14

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

Brian January 29th, 2008

Fantastic…..Ok Daniel, Let's say I'm a thief, murderer, and a pimp….and I'm so glad I'm in the "no Judgment" zone of Neo Grace. I still carry out these sins from time to time, b/c they still bring me joy, but hey, I know I'm forgiven, ever since I gave my life to Christ, I know I have liberties which allow this wonderful grace to see beyond the pitfalls of my addictions. Since a sin is a sin, it makes me feel comforted knowing it doesn't matter what we do, , whether I choose to smoke a pipe…or continue being a pimp. You guys make me feel so assured of my forgiveness, that I can relax knowing that no matter what I continue to do, it is well with my soul….that it's not so much about what I do, It's about the grace which no longer condemns. I know these things are wrong, but perhaps in time, I will begin to stop doing them…..but at least you have made me realize that it's more about forgiveness, not so much about repentance! Thank you for not judging me, for I sure wouldn't want to offend anyone with what I do….to whom I do it, or how I get it done.

How does a Neo Grace minion handle this without seeing the need for a call to repentance?? All sin equally wrong?
Luke 12:47-48 reveal a very different answer than you do about "all" sin being equal. No, all sin doesn't all look the same to God in this passage.

The context of Paul's Argument has to do with the eating of clean and unclean animals, and is not to be taken in terms of "not judging someone for sin". How can the body of Christ "remove the wicked one from among you" without making judgements about the person needing to be extracted??

Since your body isn't 'yours"…..it really is "God's business"…is seeing my body as the temple of the Holy Spirit just my personal choice? Or…is it the will of God for "every believer"?

Note to Steve Brown……when you're loose on what defines sin and rightousness….there's no real way of defining the real value of grace now is there?? Now it's time YOU think about that!

Daniel January 30th, 2008

Brian:

The Luke passage is a discussion on willful disobedience. Which technically since God calls us to be like Jesus(both perfect man and God), then every sin we commit is willful. Or do you disagree? Thats all I was saying by everyone being equal.

Also true Christians do not revel in sin, they attempt to break the cycle, to be like Him. The will to be like Christ. So the example you gave is likely someone who is an infant in the faith or not saved at all. There is a difference in willfuly sinning because "hey I'm forgiven" and sinning because it is something one is born into and daily struggle with. That all Im trying to say, we all struggle with one vice or another, smoking is just more visible than other sins.

In fact Romans 3 says pretty much what I was attempting to convey.

I like your zeal Brian, and appreciate the conversation…I still think we agree more on than what it appears, we just have different methods…

Charles January 30th, 2008

I agree with Daniel.

I would only add that some sins we are ignorant of get revealed to us by Him in time. We don't recognize every bad motive the moment we accept Christ. That too is part of the process.

George McFly January 30th, 2008

I'd like a milkshake please.

Daniel January 30th, 2008

does it bring all the boys to the yard?

Brian January 31st, 2008

Daniel,
Good, We agree the the Luke passage is an example of willful disobedience. Just as in the case of "Steve's…by his own admittance). My point was that it's also an example of varying "degrees" of punishment for varying degrees of sin. The reason I stated this passage was in response to what you said, "No one is perfect and all sin is equally wrong before the eyes of God, therefore we are all on a level playing field". I hear this statement from time to time from Christians, as if they hope to equate henious sin (willful intention, intent for selfish gain etc) such as the one's in my extreme example above, with "unknown sin" which hasn't been revealed, or even sin with "good intentions" such as those who "lied" about having Jews in their closets to the nazi's so a greater "good" would be made manifest. Rahab the Harlot, "hid" the spies …which is an act of 'faith" and she is heralded for this despite the fact that she "bore false witness" to her own people about it was not an issue. It seems apparent from your response that you would be willing to call out this person….where many caught up in the Neo Grace Movement would "not"….citing that his struggle with his sin…is conclusive of his desire to follow Christ!! The Apostle Paul is now flipping over in his grave!! Jesus had power to make miraculous changes while on earth, even the power to forgive sin. (Still does!) Yet we do not have the same powers nor vantage point, and thus our attempts to "be like Christ" in our "granting of grace" become more "God-like" than the example we were intended to follow!

I liked how you said "true Christians do not revel in sin" and I wish this were more the rule rather than the exception…. The human "will" always acts upon it's strongest inclination of the moment, and this is sadly no less apparent than in the case for Christians living in our culture today. Instead of living up to the grace they've received, they seek to relax it, so as to portray a "sensitivity" to the sinner, while being insensitive toward repentance and sin… even playing the "grace card" to amazingly "justify" it much in the way Jesus did…..are we eploying powers we don't really have? Saying things like "why make a big deal about sin, when everybody's has it" doesn't do much to help others struggling from doing more of it, and in fact, it would appear that sin for Christians isn't really different from the World according to the statistics….which "should" be troubling to every Christian leader. Steve Brown uses anecdotes such as "I'm not your mother" so I really don't care how you go about living your life" which makes it hard to render any personal care or accountability, and even gives hearty approval of those involved in the practice of sin …..and praises them just for "getting the grace thing"! This is grievous….and it goes unnoticed and unchallenged. This whole "smoking" thing isn't about the smoking really, (which he seems to avidly enjoy defending) but it's about accurately balancing the respect of truth and grace with equal tension. The "go and sin no more" command by Jesus get's thrown out the window when Grace is all that is preached. If grace is like the milk of the gospel, and truth is the meat….it's no wonder we will never get past this Corinthian Sad State of "affairs" with preaching and teaching like this. It is a discredit to God to be "proud' of one's own sin….just as you mentioned….and I'm not seeing the "struggle" you mentioned taking place from the teacher I am putting in question….more like futility, and a real distaste for practical theology. Where's the exhortation to flee from sin?? Where's the encouraging hope of "sinining less" through the process of sanctification?? All I see is someone who appears to have given up on his own struggle, so maybe some feel a little less inclined to continue theirs. This message is only half of the Gospel, and is therefor "NOT" the true Biblical Gospel of the Scriptures. I am very disheartened to see such a powerful "voice" in my own denomination, present himself with such a lack of exhortation for "rightousness". If we've ever tried to grow the church synthetically….it's now.

Charles January 31st, 2008

It's one thing to point out sin to followers who can't or won't see it, but another to keep reminding them of how wrong and terrible they are.

I look at Paul's letter to Corinthians in 2 Cor 7. He clearly states that Godly sorrow differs from worldly sorrow in that worldy sorrow brings death and Godly sorrow brings no regrets. Yet regret seems to be the Gospel, from these posts.

I realize the sinful tendency towards antinomianism, but know one seems to get all that concerned about the sinful tendency towards legalistic anxiety and manipulation…as if we are to error, better to error towards the latter than the former.

Also, I have to leave alot of room for respect of just what another persons struggle and to what extent they struggle. There is nothing more discouraging or abusive than to chide someone for a sin they should repent, when they have been agonizing over the process for days, months or even years. To do that is to harm them, not to help them. If I am wrong and there is no struggle, then it is their judgement not mine. But if I beat them up when they were already scarred, then judgement falls on me.

Steve Brown has carefully explained the error of antinomianism and the requirement to get better, rather than relax in sin. But the critiques want to discount that and focus purely on his encouragement that in Christ we have no more condemnation. I don't think Steve teaches half the gospel, but the criticism of Steve seems to be half the truth.

BTW, the reason we struggle with postmodernism in the church is not because of a rational difference about truth. Truth was and is not the issue at al, even though many posties won't admit it. It's because many of us who know the truth are butt holes to everybody and people want to either stay away from us or find an alternative to us. They see a pattern and make the faulty conclusion that anyone who claims to know acts like that so there must be a correlation. A person is individually culpable before God for his or her own decisions, but we will also be culpable for helping them along in their rebellion.

George McFly January 31st, 2008

Something dripped on the floor.

Brian February 1st, 2008

Well, Charles…there's a difference between disagreeing or questioning what someone says or does vs. saying they are "terrible", wouldn't you agree?? Let's not make this a defense of Steve personally….I actually like Steve very much …..have had numerous personal interactions with him over the past 20 years, and enjoy him as a person and a brother!! Let's not make this something it isn't….let's separate the people from the problem and stick with the teaching put into question. Just as you have done mine, shall we?? There are quite a few people who think his teaching is soft on addressing sin. He will not preach repentance, although the scriptures are full if it!! He teaches an over extension of Grace that I coin Neo Grace, and have listed on numerous postings exactly why I think (as well as others) his teaching misses the true representation of the Gospel, but don't think for a second that I believe he isn't saved, or is a horrible person, or that I'm on some witch hunt….I'll leave that to "Dave" Hunt for that. Ok?? Fair enough??

I stand by everything I have said concerning his teaching, which btw….does often lack direct scriptural backing….since so much scripture contains both grace and repentance, it's hard to make a Grace Alone" case by quoting boatloads of Scripture…that will put this case into question, such as the one you mentioned earlier in your "rebuttle". Let's take the passage you used Charles…….you mentioned 2 Cor 7…..look at verses 8,9,and 10. Paul knows that God's truth does indeed cause sorrow……but it's the sorrow which leads to ie….get this?? "Repentance" that Paul rejoices about!!! That is the good news….Paul wrote the letter b/c he cared about the sinful issues (a 2nd time in fact) going on with the bumpy ride of an "un-repentant congregation! It is the reason He wrote the letter in the first place!!…He cared about them, loved them enough to confront and instruct about dealing with sin, and inform them of the only true way to live the christian life via repentance and how to get along with one another!! Grace….and Truth!! Notice he doesn't say what you said in your "rebuttle"….that,

"There is nothing more discouraging or abusive than to chide someone for a sin they should repent, when they have been agonizing over the process for days, months or even years. To do that is to harm them, not to help them. If I am wrong and there is no struggle, then it is their judgement not mine.

Paul DOES EXACTLY what you say we "shouldn't do" in the very passage dealing with sorrow which you chose to quote!! Paul does "not" take the…oh…the struggle is up to them….and it's not for me to judge how hard their struggle has been for sooooo long….etc…Paul isn't afraid to lay it on the line!….in a loving but firm take it or leave it approach. Since the audience in the letter are clearly "Christians"…..repentance plays a key role in the life of a believer…not just at conversion as many Neo Grace advocates would have us believe. This has nothing to do with legalism, manipulation, anxiety or any of the incorrectly insinuated ascribed biblical values of preaching truth for a cause of repentance….only those who don't do it biblically would clearly be guiilty of your charges in this…..and I agree with you that some do this as a form of control just as you have stated….but they are not doing it like Paul are they. I have cleary proven that Paul has admonished the Corinthians, even exhorted…..to abstain from sin and goes into great detail as to how we can do that!!! Was Paul wrong in his "repentace style" sorrowful letter to the Corinthians??? There ya go.

Finally, It is a lack of discipline (ie the word we get discipleship from) in the church pure and simple as the reason for it's weak state. The truth is there, Christians were "bred by God" so as to become enabled to follow it…..and we just want to embrace this "unamzing grace" which doesn't really care about sin the way Paul did (and if you think my writing is long winded….just look at how long Paul's letters were to the wayward bunch at Corinth!!) b/c he deeply cared about desiring to see a "change"…ie repentance in the lives of his readers. Christians really can repent and Paul not only knows this, he expects it…..unlike many do today!

There is something you said here which also troubles me, ….you said,

"Truth was and is not the issue at al, even though many posties won't admit it. It's because many of us who know the truth are butt holes to everybody and people want to either stay away from us or find an alternative to us".

Truth is at the very heart of what it is at stake in the World today…Jesus said he was the way, the truth, and the life….(i don't see 'grace' as portion of his self ascribed indentity) and although He gives grace to his people, CHRIST IS TRUTH! Preaching the Biblical Jesus is at the very heart of our discussion, and is the foundation of all spiritual growth and sanctification and NOT preaching it results in the very real and surreal problems in the Church today. The true church used to be more "visible"….now it's become mainly just "invisible"….God forbid we would ask anyone to repent from sin "like" Paul did.
Besides, our goal is to please God in the Gospel we preach….not simply to find clever ways to make our message "pallatable" for digestion so the spiritually dead can stay dead! The dead in Christ will always find it foolish when they think about those who have new life in Christ?? It is God's choice if He wants to use us or not, but His Word does not return void if we stick to it!! Your final sentence also confuses me…..do you really think WE are responsible for those in rebellion to the Gospel? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought you were a trying to make a case for "NO condemnation under Christ"….not cupability and judgment conveniently assigned for those who "sin" chasing away the lost while trying to save them!

Brian February 1st, 2008

Another drip gone hither one may suppose.

Charles February 1st, 2008

Brian, thanks for clarifying your views on Steve personally. I wasn't suggesting what you thought of him personally but particularly the ministry…that he downplays repentance, problem of sin, in exchange for an antinomian message…which is false.

It's a case of not hearing a particular word enough to be satisfied, IMO.

That passage was brought up because Paul states Godly sorrow leads to repentence….which leaves no regrets. That last part of the sentence is the part I hinge repentence on. It doesn't mean changing the direction of your mind and will isn't painful….it always is uncomfortable to a greater or lesser degree. But true, authentic repentance has no regrets, brings joy, not sorrow and is HIs way of revealing to us just how much we are groing, rather than how awful we are.

Your mistake is that no where in Steve's ministry has he stated that sin is not important or that repentance is not important. Those are simply false accusations.

Our problem (and what your position reads) is that it is hard to trust God with other people, so the natural response is to take that responsibility on ourselves. We just think we can do a better job at convicting people than the Spirit can. In this case, you say it is Steve who's the problem…when I think it is God who you may be wondering about. I do it too. But let's call it what it is….and it isn't about doctrinal differences.

Brian February 1st, 2008

Charles,
Just b/c Steve has "not stated" that confronting sin and repentance is not important, does not prove that he doesn't in fact support such a view. I will leave you with this, some quotes from "Scandalous Freedom", which support the trend I see. Others see this too, and I can also point from various areas on this site which are similarly an over-reaction to "legalism" to arrive at the position on "Neo Grace" that he does. I am not a legalist. I cannot stand legalism any more than Steve or anyone on this message board. But we must preach a scriptural Gospel of Grace "and" Repentance…b/c repentance is what proves the Grace within us is true and effectual!

It is misleading to allow those engaged in continuous routine sin such as a "homosexual lifestyle" or any "non" struggling sin of any kind "a free pass"….on the condition they "understand" they have the Grace of God on their side……It would appear this happens quite frequently on this site, where folks write in quite happy to have found a preacher/teacher offering free grace and comfort, which is exemplified in several interactions with Steve. He praises a quite proud self proclaimed homosexual for "understanding grace" over others who fail to recognize what grace "really is". Scripture gives us no authority to "forgive" a person from their sin, as in an absolvement manner, any more than the content "practicing" sinner plans on stopping their sin!! When we fail to confront folks like this, we are indirectly giving hearty approval of their sin, by not clarifying this is grievous to God and that they should in fact be struggling rather than happy and content!!

Placing a greater "Authority" on "feeling and experience" than on the Scriptures themselves cannot possbily result in "biblcal repentance" and is therefor no different than any charasmatic or clever guru sprinkling anecdotes instead of Scripture to foster their causes, in this case, the Neo Grace agenda. Steve routinely denounces others adherance to "biblical authority" and states,

"Whenever religion becomes leverage, it ceases to be the religion of Jesus. The gospel of God's grace takes away the leverage."

Does it take it away?? Does not the Gospel of Grace then become the leverage?? Is Grace all there is to the Gospel?? Why stop there?? Universalists would also be in hearty agreement!! Were we saved just to "experience" (there's that word again) forgiveness?? Or rather isn't this just a part of biblical sanctification involving repentance, the working out of that salvation you've received, and the living out of a life passionately resonating and making a difference with that faith in a steadfast obedience to Scripture. Neo Grace says not! It says you are entitled to feel forgiven without true repentance, that God is "crazy about you" when in fact the "unrepentant" sinner grieves the Holy Spirit and may still be actually be unsaved and under the wrath of God! No where in Scripture do we see a God who states that He loves us "unconditionally". This is why it borders on Universalism. It absolutely promotes and creates a comfort zone where sin can be president, as well as resident, and thus allowing one to create an attitude of thinking that God is never offended by the sin of a believer…so one needn't be too concerned about it….sin get's tossed and joked about so flipantly and callously as if it's not really that important anymore on the "Blog". Repentance and obedience are soon left in the dust and replaced with a narcisistic and even egotistical reactionary response toward the traditional reformed views of repentance and obedience…which at some point, will may result in a theological "shift" in changing our understanding of the character of God..and turns it more into a "caracature"….or cartoon version of the Gospel.

Steve also states,

"You see, if I'm forgiven without condition, you can't make me feel guilty. If God loves me, you can't manipulate me by threatening to take away your love. If God knows my secrets and doesn't condemn me, my secrets can't be used as blackmail. If you have power and threaten to use it against me and I don't care, your power is no longer real power."

Let's examine this. This might be true…..if God's Word didn't say in Ephesians 4:30: " And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". If it is possible to grieve God, then what Steve is saying cannot be true. This also causes one to negate even having to think about I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and rightous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrightousness". Why would God write this to "believers" if He no longer wanted us to think we could never offend Him with our sin as Steve states??

Let's take the next point where Steve writes,
" If God loves me, you can't manipulate me by threatening to take away your love".

God's love is not something we should take for granted either, which is just as manipulating as God would be to threaten to take it back! (although He would have every right!!) This again, is reactionary. It's a dangerous thing to create a doctrine on a hyperbole. Having God's love doesn't mean we ever had the "right" to it. It's still Christ's rightousness applied which makes us get along at all with God. If we take sin lightly, we certainly have it coming from others who will and should be offended by it, and perhaps expecting they should "just forgive" so freely is taking advantage and just as manipulative??

Thirdly, Steve states,

" If you have power and threaten to use it against me and I don't care, your power is no longer real power."

Ok, what about the case of those spending eternity in Hell , even their apathetic attutude does not invalidate the REAL power of God! In terms of relation to others, many of those in power also don't care, and any amount of apathy you can muster won't make a difference to them one bit. It only serves to feed one's own pride, serving as though a way to strike back with a stiff upper lip without any effectual cause at all. To summarize, I see a person who has been bruised by a controlling, manipulative church of legalism, going to the other side to "over-prove" a correct biblical blend of both grace and truth…..resorting to ways one can resist the "control of misplaced authority" so that they are left to become the only source in which to judge their own growth….when in fact that is not the only biblical option.

So, there you are Charles. I think the point in question is quite valid and proven….I know this is an in-house debate…but it's an important one…in light of how screwed up the church is these days. Grace is easy to understand…..who doesn't want grace?? We get that, we need that. However We so easily negate the discipline in the church when it's time to stand up vs. sin…..and instead, we offer an easy "out" a cheap grace which allows sin to continue without a struggle. without exhortation, without discipline, and this is the real tragedy within our denomination…..instead it creates 2 types of churches, those on either side of these extremes both reacting to each other so that the ~~proper tension~~ is broken into either/or and that's when we begin negating scripture that doesn't support our "own" agenda to prove our favorite causes.

Charles February 2nd, 2008

None of Steve's quotes state that we should relax in sin. And when you take something out of context, you can prove or disprove anything that suits you. You are reading that into the quotes. On the contrary, Steve is trying to state that we are responsible to others, not for others. Do you understand the difference? Your decision to make sure Steve is convicting of smoking or being friends with a homosexual is not only impotent, but sinful.

Protection and compassion are the two modes of our involvement in this process, but it is always God's Spirit who convicts, in the end, not us. We take that job on because at heart, we don't trust God to handle the ongoing sin in someone else's life, so we take that job from Him and try to manage it ourselves. And we always fail because it doesn't work and it fails because we end up in sin and refuse to repent of it.

Steve's quotes are directed to those who feel the sinful need to be responsible for others, rather than simply responsible to others…..to try to do the work of God in other people's lives, when no one can do that.

I would also state that this untrusting method of sin management along with jeoulousy, contempt, greed, lust, backbiting, gossip and a lack of forgiveness are mentioned more times than the sins you bring up…and many times that characterizes us more when we battle other people's sins, than not.

I am all for repentance and treating sin seriously and so is Steve. But my sin is what I need to be concerned about. I may find sin in your life, but in the end, there's enough sin to go around more than a dozen times for all of us and if God is God, then we simply need to trust Him more and manage people and outcomes less.

Is there a time where I need to step in? Sure. When someone is being abused, threatened, beat up or beat down or treated with contempt, I will step in, just as Paul did, and let it be known. When someone's sin has found them out and their world is falling apart, I step in…not to remind them of just how wrong they are, but to encourage them they aren't condemned and nothing is wasted….so they can get back up, rather than beat themselves up.

If I read Jesus and want to be very serious about the Gospels and what He did, this is what I see. The few times I see Him condemning other sin is toward the religious professionals (and for those who had no time or interest in Jesus, like His hometown), for blocking the door and not coming in themselves. But then, He has that perogative, not me, so when I end up doing it, I realize my motives aren't the same as His, and I repent

The greatest commandments are to love God with all you have and love your neighbor as yourself…and Jesus goes through great lengths to help us realize who our neighbor is. Romans 14 and 15 focus on the best for others as our guide for when to step in and when to back off. He gets into it again in I Corinthians. In chapter 13 of the same letter, he defines love as not keeping record of wrong doing, being patient, kind….not a clanging symbol, etc. The first century portrayed Christians as loving one another and helping those who couldn't help themselves as a key defining factor, aside their devotion to the Man from Galilee.

Boy, have we changed….at least the clanging cymbols we always hear sound alot different.

Brian February 3rd, 2008

We'll just have to agree to disagree Charles. What would you say the number one problem in the World is today?? Would the answer be….not enough grace??? Or….too much sin??? Now let's ask the same question about the church today and I think the same is rhetorically and obviously clear. Too much Sin ( and a lack of discipline in dealing with it) is the number one issue hands down….

Adding more grace telling others they can be scandously free doesn't make the church less sinful, or more Holy…it only makes people feel less responsible for their predicaments and struggles with sin. We are patronizing to christians that a true life of change is optional. Yet, Isn't this debate really about distinguishing a biblical Grace from Neo Grace which has replaced it to synthetically grow the church and add synthetic seed??

In case you think the display of this Psuedo "grace" is uniquely a Christian act of benevolence, you are greatly mistaken. Eastern Mystics, Universalists, and other non Christian people I know are capable of displaying the same level and even greater levels of "forgiveness" toward one another…especially those who share the same vices…..so when you think that you are being "biblcal" in your grace outreach, this is not something unique to the ability of Christians who have become so easily "tolerant" in a politically correct society. What makes the real Grace of God enacted any differently from other non believers who lavish "grace"?? It is the God given ability to repent! (ie turn away from sin that, not only does God reveal to you through His Spirit over time, but Scripture, other believers…and even non-christians as well). In fact, there is no greater way to respect and love God more by true grace in your life than by "exhibiting" a changed and Holy life and sadly, statistics tell us that most christians certainly don't appear to live any differently than non-christians!! Saying there is power in a Scandalous Freedom of grace without real hallmark change to back up the claim, isn't really being free….and that is equally as scandalous!! Paul expected Christians to change, to exhort each other to change, to discipline ourselves and others to change that he wrote detailed instructions on how to do so. Why don't more christian leaders of our day publically stand up vs the sin of our culture and risk the scower instead resort to the fatalistic point that a "lost culture doesn't know any better" so what's the point. This is a cop out. Maybe that lost faith comes from a lack of temple reasoning?? We've never expected so little from christians than we do now….many church and worship services have become a sellout to extravagant musical performances and entertainment. And boy how it is idolized!! The people are starving for something more than just the milk of grace….(considering they can't seem to put to use the Grace God gave them at conversion), we have repackaged it and told them it's NOT contingent upon a life which must line up with Scripture. Welcome to Celebrity Christian leadership…which is really more about the idolization and likablity of the followed leader, than confronting the congragations in the mire! I guess it's just easier this way….and alot less confrontational. I'd rather be guilty of clanging symbols (if you really think that's what I'm about) than to promote a gospel which provides grace and assurance to those in need of initial repentance.

Erik February 4th, 2008

Brian & Charles,

I really appreciate the way this thread has developed. Thank you both for your input. It's great to see some real discussion without the conversation devolving into personal attacks (not that either of you would stoop to that the way I have in the past - I did repent BTW).

Anyway, I'd love to join this discussion. Brian, did you get my emails requesting correspondence? If not, check both email accounts that you gave the site when you first started posting.

Thanks again for all the good stuff guys.

Charles February 4th, 2008

Thank you Eric.

Brian…notice how you pit grace versus sin. "What would you say the number one problem in the World is today?? Would the answer be….not enough grace??? Or….too much sin???"

I would say that the lack of the first is the cause of the second. Instead of focusing on managing sin….trying to minimize it….we should show and dispense the grace we've been given every moment to others. I firmly believe the scriptural record shows that this grace is what changes lives, not managing the level of sin. I haven't studied all religions but I am very familiar with Buddhism and a little with Hinduism….if anything, there are more rules and legalistic 'paths' than any Pharisee could create. Buddhism starts with the four noble truths, which the last is the 8-fold path and within that there are hundreds of other rules to live by. Self-discipline is the underscoring goal in Buddhism. Grace is so alien to eastern philosophy.

Christianity stands completely alone with its concept of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. Grace is so foriegn to the human mind, that it takes salvation and giving us Jesus' thoughts in order for us to even fathom it.

But even Christians (myself included) like to fall back into the self-discipline mode. It makes more sense to try to pull ourselves up by our moral bootstraps than it does to let God's love transform our lives through spiritual formation.

Our problem is that we are too scared of grace to let ourselves surrender to God even those things we think we can handle ourselves yet never have been able to. If we focus too much on Romans 8:1, we feel like the church will disappear, Christ will have died in vain and the Kingdom of God will evaporate.

The reason I am better than I was isn't because of my managing sin to a minimum. It is because I am already His child and no one can rip me out of His hands. That truth is what Satan works on the most and it is the only thing that makes me want to be a better person.

That is Steve's ministry….to silence those other voices (some of them are our own), and to trust God even with our own sin.

Our choice is to believe that God's grace is sufficient or its not….and because we are all recovering legalists, it takes God's grace just to get us to even consider that, even though it is clearly stated in Scripture.

Brian February 5th, 2008

Hi Charles, Let me get this straight…..are you saying that a lack of grace in the world is the cause of sin??? I think what you may have meant to say was, a lack of grace can "contribute" as a cause for sin to which I would agree. I was refering to this in the original sense…..my point was to state that the lack of "grace" in the world is not the basic problem of man. It is sin. The fact that Adam sinned vs God would indeed be God's fault if a lack of grace were the cause…follow me?? It's like, Poor Adam didn't get enough grace so that God wouldn't hold him responsible for breaking His commandment?? This would be like saying…..If God had been more gracious to Adam when he sinned, then maybe we wouldn't be held accountable for sin at all in the first place?? See how the lack of grace didn't cause the fall?? I too hold a very high view of grace, just as you do….don't get me wrong… My point is that in reformed circles , we are preoccupied with Grace, to the point of worshipping it as an Idol within the ranks…while it's clear it secures our "relationshsip" with God we discount the need for exhortation, church discipline, "within it's context"….I'm in no way saying we need to be "legalistic"….but more scripturally challenging in our reformed approach to educating those in our fold who just don't think they need to move on past….I"M FORGIVEN!! So why change?? I know lot's of people with this ideology and this is more rampant among reformed circles than those legalistic. Many take this grace as a license to sin….for which they "know" they will be forgiven…which means frankly, either the grace they "received" isn't a biblical grace…. and/or reformed churches are doing a poor job of communicating "biblical truth" to a very "grace demanding" generation. I think we have swung to the other side…..even grace must be applied to the false grace these folks "think" they have! We are endangering those to have faith in "grace"….not grace through faith! Where grace becomes the salvation itself, rather than one of the beneftis of being saved…..there are more benefits to being saved aren't there?? …the benefit becomes the entire reason "we believe" rather than the desire to please God with proof of a truly changed life. ie. repentance! Yes we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that IS alone!

Regardless of how a believer shares the Gospel, the fate of a lost soul is always in the hands of God, and neither you….nor I can mess that up!! But it still does not absolve us of the responsibility of sharing a "Biblical Gospel"…..at least one clear enough for the non elect to reject it! I am witnessing a real "lack of struggle with sin on this site"…..some who are truly irreverent to anyone questioning the views espoused. Anyone can play name and claim it Grace…..but only those who's lives actually change really have it…. Folks like this should question the worth and value of their own salvation!

I'm still trying to figure out why the church isn't really growing in contrast to our culture with all the grace that's in place within reformed circles…..What do you suppose is the reason for this general state of "Apathy" ?? I can only come to a realization that a false gospel of "grace plus nothing" is being taught…. without warning folks to make sure the calling of your election is real. Even though folks in our circles don't raise a hand, walk an isle, pray a prayer to make the "change" pontificated…..(and it is good that we don't….cuz the results of the 70's and 80's are full of emotional moments that don't amount to much) we go the same route by asking a few questions, whisking them through an enquirers class, and Vwoilla!! They're up on stage for member induction….then they sit for years on end every Sunday, without any real challenge, desire for bible study, service, etc…..and we just allow this to go on…..if we truly cared about the growth, wouildn't grace be more active than what's taking place here???

Charles, since when does trusting God mean we no longer concern ourselves in managing sin?? Having "real Grace" should make you want to manage your own sin, (one of the fruits of the Spirit is "Self Control is it not??) and struggling over time till you see real Freedom (ie the reduction of sin addictions such as Smoking). We should never ever give up on a struggle with sin…..The command to not be drunk with wine….is much like the same with smoking. You "can' get a buzz…..it does alter ones mood, and it is addictive just like caffeine, causes cancer……now before you all retort to all the "other stuff" out there that can kill you as a means of "Steve's justification" rememer, you don't justify one sin, by pointing out others. It is disheartening to witness those even display a pride in the way that they've given up the struggle…..if you're losing that battle, then what else is going on in your life which needs to put into question for "leadership" …just as Elders and Deacons with conditions placed upon them for their ability to lead…why should anyone elses be any different? Seems it's easy to enjoy the benefits of leadership…..without the responsibilties isnt' it?? Steve, regardless of your desire NOT to be in "official leadership"…..you are….and the standards don't change just b/c grace seems like a great excuse NOT to be concerned about rightousness…..and it produces 2 effects in the church. ….those not saved and living in sin are happy that a change needn't really take place and will feel welcome and open arms to join such a church that needn't mention repentance as a result of being saved. Thus the synthetic seed takes root! The other is the way these folks detest those who want more than a cheap grace, those wanting a grace with power and truth, with the ability to change, a grace giving desire to struggle and "manage" one's own sin. They are easily written off as works based, legalistic and lacking in grace. This couldn't be further from the truth, a grace with no power to confront sin and change, manage it, is not a grace worthy of being called God's…..if you are enjoying a salvation free of concern for sin, then you have (and I do too) every right to question the validity of that salvation…something this message board tends to refuses to accept. It's a complete departure of traditional Reformed Theology in it's application…..They say that Hugh Heffner is one of the nicest and gracious guys in the entertainment business……just as gracious as any christian, hey…maybe he's saved too eh??….but it just goes to show, grace without teeth….couldn't be further from the Bibilcal grace Christ offers. For what stand might you take on this site whereby someone might take offense to your message?? (other than those like me). The fact that unbelievers tend to welcome and don't question this message, should be alarming. Go ahead, and paint me as a Pharisee if you want, but I think the sufficiency of God's Grace is key….it is sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect….who should hate the sin….but love the sinner. Just wish there was more balance, guys, on this within our circles.

Brian February 5th, 2008

Eric, I'm not interested in a Podcast. Even though I think I am making some very accurate observations….(no I'm not perfect either)…. It's probably better off I move on….clanging cymbol and all. The PCA and other "grace" Reformed churches are going liberal right from underneath our own watch….and it's due to the reactionary positions dealt with at General Assembly. What a shame….and a sham. All grace means weak on Discipline, accountaabilty, Bibilcal instruction. Those in the "all truth" dept are manipulative, controlling, and judgmental. I think We have over reacted to the latter, but the reality is….we need to unite both of these to be Biblical. There are many in the Grace camp looking for absolutes that the Chuch just won't take a stand on….and it's going to cost us….sucks really!!

Erik February 5th, 2008

Brian,

That's cool on the podcast. I was really more interested in a serious email correspondence about the issues you bring up. I'm not pushing the podcast thing…that was the producer in me talking.

Anyway, the main point is that I'd like to "talk" with you. I think you make excellent points. I don't think you're a pharisee, and I agree when you say…

"…we need to unite both of these ["all truth" & "all grace"] to be Biblical."

I hesitate to have that discussion in the comments of a blog post given the way I've seen that go in the past. That's why I was asking if you were willing to discuss via email. However, given how your exchange with Charles has gone, I suppose we can talk online if you insist.

Anyway, if you want to move on, I of course respect that too. Just know this…

I will not be truly happy until I'm conformed to the very image of Christ. I want to live a holy life…discipline, joy, death to self, love and service of others…all of it. I've tasted the peaceful fruit of righteousness and I want more. Repentance and holiness are very important to me (and Steve Brown BTW).

The question is, how do we get there? That's what I'd like to discuss with you.

Charles February 5th, 2008

Brian, I am fairly busy today and it will take some time to digest your response.

But I wanted to say that I would like for you to stick around. We may not agree, but I respect you and consider you my brother. And I also think our discourse is helpful for us and for others. I want you to stick around.

Second, I too believe in objective, absolute truth. Truth, by its very nature is exclusive and absolute. I may not have it all down, but that has nothing to do with whether or not it is out there or available (contrary to postmodern philo). I also abhor sin. I do not relish in it. I do not believe that a person isn't responsible for their thoughts, words and deeds. They are.

I am sure Steve believes the same.

There is a difference between postmodern thought, antinomian living and what Steve (and a few others) teach.

I believe God's grace is the primary motivating factor that changes me. I focus on Him, spend time with Him and try to live all my life as if He is the central focus of reality, and the details will handle themselves.

George McFly February 8th, 2008

It's all changing, I tell ya.

I remember a quote:

"You smell like swine"

I thought about it. You know so many times we think we have all the answers. Sheesh. If we only had a clue. Think of the man who spends countless hours clipping coupons to save a couple bucks. Does he dance with the buffoons. I think not! He sits quietly while the bozos on the TV argue with the culture of sobriety, while the turkeys get the last laugh.

So to end all curiosuity, here goes:

WE ALL ARE FRIENDS

James March 8th, 2008

Amazing - this was posted in August and the last comment was in February (now March). Have you ever read "Smoking Spiritualized" by Ralph Erskine? It's greatness!

THIS Indian weed now wither'd quite,
Tho' green at noon, cut down at night,
Shows thy decay;
All flesh is hay.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The pipe, so lily-like and weak,
Does thus thy mortal state bespeak
Thou art ev'n such,
Gone with a touch.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And when the smoke ascends on high,
Then thou behold'st the vanity
Of worldy stuff,
Gone with a puff.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And when the pipe grows foul within,
Think on thy soul defil'd with sin;
For then the fire,
It does require.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And seest the ashes cast away;
Then to thyself thou mayest say,
That to the dust
Return thou must.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

Part Two: The Gospel
WAS this small plant for thee cut down!
So was the Plant of great renown;
Which mercy sends
For nobler ends.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

Doth juice medicinal proceed
From such a naughty foreign weed?
Then what's the power
Of Jesse's flower?
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The promise, like the pipe, inlays,
And by the mouth of faith conveys
What virtue flows
From Sharon's rose.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

In vain th' unlighted pipe you blow;
Your pains in outward means are so,
Till heav'nly fire
The heart inspire.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The smoke, like burning incense, tow'rs;
So should a praying heart of yours,
With ardent cries,
Surmount the skies.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

Brian March 10th, 2008

They burned and they dug…..and they dug and they burned….and they killed all those cute little weeds!!….then they drove away!!…………We just smiled and waved….sittin' ner' on nat sack a seeds!!

Jim Stafford, The Wildwood Weed circa early 70's.

Bonnie March 22nd, 2008

I remember thinking one day, "If I didn't smoke, I would be perfect." Now isn't that a shame! I smoke in the privacy of my own home. I am reminded everytime I pick up a cigarette, that I am NOT perfect, I am NOTHING but a sinner saved by GRACE! Back when I was a young girl, my Grandmother smoked her old stone pipe (in the privacy of her home) and thought nothing of it! She was one of the ones who led me to Christ. My own Mother used snuff. I never saw anything wrong in that, but I did see their testimony in the lives they both lived, and I praise God for placing me in their lives. For my Mother and my Grandmother led me to Christ, and if others had not labeled smoking a "sin," I would not have known that it ever was.

Bonnie March 22nd, 2008

By the way, my Grandmother lived to be 82, I believe, and my Mother was 84 when she died.

Allen March 23rd, 2008

Wow, those lengthy discussions made me smoke my pipe!! hahahah

Steve, pass the tobacco, Brother, I'll join you. I'll cash in my free sin coupon,
-Allen

Brian March 24th, 2008

Great Job Steve!!
Where grace abounds, so does the sin!! Yeah baby, can I borrow your wife tonight? We'd like to get stoned!!!

: ))) Let it abound all the more!!!!

Allen March 27th, 2008

The Christian who sins because others sin is in for a world of hurt. This world is full of sins, and there's no possible way we can avoid them (original sin says in fact we can't avoid them). We can surely try however (knowing we will fail), and by the Grace and Goodness of God and the Holy Spirit we will eventually cast them aside. Even our Faith is from God. (You realize this means I don't even have to try and have faith! - it's from Him, given as a gift to me!)

Brian- I'm sure that Steve will be happy to send another free sin coupon to you. I think I have some spares lying around here… there's one… oh goodie, I can have a pipe tonight.

Just for the record, I was a pipe smoker well before I even knew Steve Brown existed. Of course if you're a physicist you may believe he didn't exist before I heard of him, but I suspect that's likely wrong. Or, perhaps the pipe-smoking particles are anti-particles, moving backwards in time causing me to smoke because in the future Steve would tell me it's ok…

Just having fun.

Grace is dangerous stuff,
-Allen

Brian March 27th, 2008

You must be on some good snuff there Allen!! : )) Well while your'e waiting for an act of God to make changes in your life, consider that the grace you were already given contains the power to make an effectual changes with regard to all sin in your life….and you should be struggling just like every other believer.

Where does original sin say that all sin (ie in this case "smoking") cannot be avoided?? The reason you smoke is that you enjoy your addiction more than you do to obey the living Christ who's grace has already provided you the ability to quit. You give up a struggle b/c you don't believe God's Grace can enable you to change this….so perhaps you never will. Those who deny their destruction of the temple of the H.S. (ie the body) will continue to focus on the pleasure it brings them, just as an alcoholic needs his vice. Anything to which you could not do without than to survive….is an idol. There is hope for anyone who actually desires to put up a fight over time….over any sin…any addiction….there is always hope….over time….it can be defeated and overcome by the exact same Grace which forgives, and empowers true repentance. One's lack of desire to struggle with sin is a clear example of one's lack of faith in a particular area. It's "in the way" of your sanctification if you're not wresting with it. If God's Grace is only good for Justification (and not sanctification as you are clearly suggesting here)….then you are clearly embracing a synthetic grace without the power to cause an effectual change within you. Do you believe this about all sin???

Just b/c Steve says it's ok….does that make it ok?? Just b/c he's resigned the struggle vs it, does that mean you should too?? Isn't your body the temple of the Holy Spirit?? Wouldn't you rather enjoy "real freedom" from your idol rather than rely on just the forgiveness from it??

Just for the record…..Someday…..you will realize that Steve is just making you feel better about your sin. Stubborn selfish pride is what keeps so many from what they really could be enjoying in the newness of Christ!! I'll let you get back to your vices…..alas….since Steve says it's ok!!

Just having fun with you snuffers!!

Sin is dangerous snuff!! : )))

Brian March 27th, 2008

Whatever does not effect a change in you….couldn't possibly be all that dangerous. Grace is only dangerous when it actually creates great changes in your life!!

Allen March 28th, 2008

Oh but it has created a change in me. God no longer sees me for who I am in life, he sees me for who Jesus is in me. I can go confidently before his throne. That is a true gift. Without Christ, I would never make it to the throne ante-room even. Or the servant's entrance where the trash is taken out. That is the true gift.

And if we're talking about the temple, there are so many other things that I need to attend to, not just smoking. Whether I eat healthy or not, is also equally as dangerous. Even if I slightly over eat, or slightly under-eat, these can all be considered to be disrespect. If I breath noxious car-fumes that can cause cancer, this is also disrespect to the temple God has given me… or spend too much time in the sun… there are so many many things. Perhaps I need someone to turn a light-switch on for me on the Sabbath?…

-Allen

Allen March 28th, 2008

A small addendum- there's something else to smoking that is addictive. I highly doubt it's the nicotine. Nicotine replacement therapies are well known to be ineffective. It's definitely not an addiction when you don't do it for well over a week and can't even think when you last smoked a pipe, or if you even want one today. I think perhaps not. Perhaps tomorrow- who knows. One would think an addiction would say: "Let's have one now!!!", eh? [I actually didn't have one on the day I mentioned above that I would- it's very easy to say in camraderie: "I'll join you." But in fact I didn't that evening.]

Now, cigarettes may be addictive, but a Pipe has never been for me, nor any other form of nicotine, but I haven't smoked cigarettes (well known pH tampering and nicotine infusion), so I can't discuss those. This leads me to believe it's not the nicotine. But, let's not drudge up yet another argument.

C.S. Lewis was well known to have said to his American Lady, that he strongly suggests one not to take up smoking.

Brian March 28th, 2008

"One would think an addiction would say: "Let's have one now!!!", eh? [I actually didn't have one on the day I mentioned above that I would- it's very easy to say in camraderie: "I'll join you." But in fact I didn't that evening.]"

So then Allen….you deceived me into thinking you really were gonna have that smoke??…. afterall, you promised!! You promised you'd smoke and you didn't. You lied to us all, and must now repent for not smoking when you said you would. : )))

I'm justht methane with ya!

Mmike March 29th, 2008

I've been thinking lately about the song Amazing Grace…the first part of Vs. 2….Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear, and Grace my fears relieved…and I thought about that…it was Grace that taught my heart to fear…and I thought about it, and it kinda made me shiver…because it WAS Grace that taught my heart to fear…to fear the awesomeness of a infinitely powerful and terrible God that has the power to forgive sin…and forgives mine…and it made me shiver, and relieved my fears. His mercy endures forever.

Allen March 31st, 2008

Brian-

Hahahah. Thanks for the laugh, Brother! (lol)

Although, I'll ask you to kindly spare the Methane just now… I had enough this past weekend from my pals.

Grace and peace to you and yours- Allen