Mike May 15th, 2007

I highly agree with this. I have heard people say that christians won't support Romney because he is a Mormon but I really didn't think they would be that narrow about it. Out of the 3 candidates on the Republican side he is the one I would pick. Now I wouldn't want him teaching my kid's Sunday school and I do agree they have some messed theology but that doesn't have anything to do with being President. I know Mormons come down on the same side of the line as me and most christians with morals and as a candidate He seems quite capable. When the only thing you can find to attack a man about is that he didn't have premarital sex with his wife of 38 years it seems like he must be a good guy. He isn't gonna make Mormonism the national religion, they think they are just another denomination so why would he try. Do these people really believe the crap about all of our other presidents being christians? Yes they all said so, but what does that mean, they don't inhale either.

Zach Van Dyke May 15th, 2007

Brother Jerry (R.I.P.) would not be happy with this blog entry.

señor jefe May 15th, 2007

When I go to get my car fixed:I don't want an evangelical Christian to be my mechanic:unless he is a good mechanic. When I go to the doctor, I want the best one. I don't care if he is a Christian.

Unfortunately Steve, this logic does not translate to politics. Because whoever is the best 'politician' is the worst infidel of all.

Are there any candidates who are humble and not self-absorbed and still exhibit that little quality many refer to as 'leadership'?

Personally, I'm wondering if I wouldn't rather have a Mormon with a 'stable meta-narrative' than a christian with conviction…

Joe (Hubie) May 16th, 2007

The only reason I won't vote for Romney is that he is pro-choice. I can't support any candidate that agrees with Federally or State Sanctioned Murder (Infanticide). When will the Democrats ever learn that? I'd vote for most fiscally conservative democrats if they would just stop supporting abortion on demand. Romney is a RINO (Republican In Name Only), along with Snowe, and Collins our two Maine Senators. Sell-outs all, chasing the dime.

Mike May 16th, 2007

I thought Romney used to be pro-choice years ago, then he changed his mind and became pro-life. He is getting a lot of flack for that they call it flip-flopping but isn't that when you go back and forth? Shouldn't we be allowed to change our minds especially in the direction of life. I know I was once pro-choice cause I didn't know any better and now I know better. Don't we want to encourage people to change there minds on this issue isn't that how to get them to stop killing the children? Just a thought.

señor jefe May 16th, 2007

I'm still trying to figure out why abortion is the only issue christians seem to be concerned about, when Jesus never mentioned anything resembling it, but spoke more about subjects like economics, war/peace and forgiveness.

Abortion is a political maneuver, not a moral position. It will never be overturned… its too valuable as election manipulation.

BC May 17th, 2007

"When I go to get my car fixed:I don't want an evangelical Christian to be my mechanic:unless he is a good mechanic. When I go to the doctor, I want the best one. I don't care if he is a Christian."

This is a fuzzy analogy, but not in the cynical way senor jefe argues. It is a fiction that theology has nothing to do with daily life, and that includes one's work. This view has its roots in American utilitarianism and hyper-individualism, which infects American Christianity.

And how much more influence does theology have on a person's daily life when one's job is to be the leader of the free world? The daily schedule in the Oval Office deals with Global, Civilizational and Transcendental issues of National Policy and Grand Strategy–a very fertile ground for theology to have profound influence.

Romney's theology is still unclear (as is so much of Mormonism). To say this would not affect his Presidency is almost as delusional as saying George W. Bush's theological views do not affect his Presidency. We do not have a "religious test for public office" in this country. But in our impoverished utilitarian mindsets we have also create the illusion that a person's theological view of the world matters little if at all in their ability to do a job.

Tim May 17th, 2007

senor jefe has it right: abortion is a non-issue. Because honestly, if the supreme court overturns roe vs. wade today it would not do anything to actually stop abortions from happening. How many things have flourished because of their banned status (drugs, prostitution, etc.)? Abortion would be no different. And that is the problem - we say we want a real end to abortion - then it's time to face the facts that no amount of laws or force will end it.

Too many of us christians are trying to placate our guilt about "letting such crime go on in our country" instead of simply helping those around us make a better decision.

So at the end of the day, it's a non-issue. No amount of voting or standing on street corners with signs will change the hearts of real people for whom it will always be an option.

And to BC - I don't think Steve is meaning that theology doesn't influence life, it's that too many use their theology as a way to sell themselves when they are short on practical skills. Would i be mroe apt to want a diamond cut by a "master diamond cutter" or by someone who starts by saying they are a christian and I should do business with them simply because of that fact with no proof that they are proficient at their craft?

Charles May 21st, 2007

Actually, I disagree with Senor (sorry Senor and Tim). Everything is a moral position. Political positions are moral positions. Any position where an 'ought' or a 'should' is brought into the discussion, it is moral. I also don't believe a political issue is one where hearts cannot be changed and a moral issue one where they can. Moral issues are taken without regard to the changing of minds/hearts all the time and many times without success. A moral issue isn't decided purely based on practical outcomes either. If it were, then anything that works is right and anything that doesn't work is wrong. However you define 'works' is subtly moved outside of the issues and unless you believe people are really inherently good and smart, it's not a safe position to take.

I would flip the question and ask why pro choice is such a quintessential and unquestioned part of the Democratic platform? Why not budge on it within the party, like the Republicans have done? Face it, the Democratic Party will hang any candidate that comes out pro life–even if they wanted to pull out of Iraq this Thursday and reinstate estate taxes to their old levels by 2010 and poor billions into thwarting global warming. To me, that is a more poignant question to ask. Show me a pro life Democrat, and he or she may get my vote. Where are they?

As far as Keller is concerned…ditto. I get his mail and really never read much of it. I will now.

Mike May 23rd, 2007

good point on the democrat pro choice thing, that is one reason I wonder how so many people can say that they are Christians and Democrats or Liberals. I know this is discussed here a lot and we are supposed to ok with that and just be friends as Steve says and i'm ok with being friends, I just still wonder how it is possible the reconcile the two. any ideas? could maybe one of the "go to libs" explain that one day on one of these blogs that would be cool, I can't be the only one wondering?

Steve Brown May 24th, 2007

Some good comments.

Senor Jefe, the only issue isn't abortion. But killing babies is rather important.

No BC : it isn't a fuzzy analogy. In fact, it is a good one if the issue is competency and that was the point I was making.

Does theology affect competency? Maybe and maybe not. It certainly would if your belief system included smoking weed or the curse of work. But that isn't where Mormons are coming from.

Does theology affect direction? Yeah, it can. If one's theology is big on child sacrifice, a call to Armageddon, anti-Semitism or maintaining racial purity of course it would.

While the theology of Mormonism bothers me, I find that it is relatively benign or, better, produces some core social, economic and political values that are not dissimilar to my own. So the issue to me is competency.

I'm not a Mitt supporter and I may or may not vote for him. But that decision probably won't have anything to do with his theology.

What really bothers me about him is that he is too perfect. Frankly, I would like to see him drunk and check out what he says then. But then, Mormons don't drink:. so we'll never know.

Tim, loved what you said about abortion and, being quite cynical, sort of agree. I certainly agree that laws don't change people's hearts.

However: Because the laws against murder haven't stopped murder we should have no laws respecting murder. Right? Or in fact, if a law is broken – any law – we should take it off the books. Right?

Law has several functions and one of them is revelatory, to wit, our laws (even if they aren't enforced) reflect what we as a nation think is right or wrong. Laws change to reflect a cultural decision on a lot of issues and abortion is one of them. If hearts do change (and there is some indication that Americans are rethinking that issue) the laws will change and Roe v. Wade will be overturned. That probably won't stop abortion but will reflect an important shift in our culture and that shift will lower the abortion rate.

señor jefe May 24th, 2007

Everything is a moral position. Political positions are moral positions. Any position where an ‘ought' or a 'should' is brought into the discussion, it is moral.

In a church, this is correct. In the political arena, I'm not so sure.

Many Christians use abortion as a litmus test for their candidates. That is simply wrong, because as Steve said, it's not the only issue.

I guess I'd be interested to see the results of Christians who, instead of simply attempting to elect people who will legislate morality for them, will instead, focus that same energy on educating the public with a peacable, non-self-righteous tone.

Personally, I hope you're right, Steve. I hope the cultural mindset does change. But for now, I believe Tony Campolo explained it best when he spoke of his conversation with Bill Clinton regarding the issue. Essentially, Clinton stated that the issue of abortion only comes up during election years– when it has the greatest political benefit to the right.

Charles May 29th, 2007

I know this is probably going too far…..but maybe voting for anybody, including Bill Keller, is voting for Satan….blue devils and red devils.

I consider myself a recovering Satanist, with the far too occasional relapse.

bruce June 12th, 2007

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
can satan actualy be a clinton and Romney and any other presidential canadate ? so when the mud flinging is all said and done who will be left standing?
not I. even the blind guy in the cornner got down to escape

doyle September 8th, 2007

In regard to abortion:
"Essentially, Clinton stated that the issue of abortion only comes up during election years– when it has the greatest political benefit to the right."
If the impeached former President was talking about politically, then of course it only comes up in election years because that is the only time when politicians can appeal to the electorate to vote for people who "say" they are against/for it. What they actually do in office may or may not demonstrate their election rhetoric. You have to hand it to the majority of Democrats, they fight to kill babies every time the opportunity arises. Republicans are just as guilty in some cases complicit, in some implicit through neglect.
However, no Christian will be able to stand in front of the Righteous Yeshua and be able to justify their works, if their works contributed to murdering the most helpless among us.
Economically, abortion has destroyed over 40 million potential productive human beings. Unless these potential tax payers, Social Security contributors, etc. are replaced (Mexican illiegals?) then, the socialism of the USA will collapse from the weight of its aging population.
God, in His Eternal Wisdom, and (in my opinion) sarcastic judgment, has used the economic prosperity of the USA to lull it into a trap of its own device. May the Lord forgive us all and may the Holy Spirit regenerate sufficient numbers of the population to avoid complete destruction. But, if He judges as He outlined in the Bible (…it would be better if he were thrown in the sea with a millstone around his neck…) then we as a nation are surely doomed!

linda marie October 12th, 2007

And the death penalty ???

At least I think we can be pretty sure the babies are going to heaven — then again, with predestination and all, maybe they're not.

BTW — I am still a republican, but from the attitudes I hear like "how can anyone be a christian and a democrat/libertal", I'm almost inclined to change.

Seems someone else I know cares about "the little guy", too…

linda marie

doyle October 21st, 2007

to linda marie:
The real issue is not "how can anyone be a Christian and a democrat/liberal", it is how can anyone support a party that implicitly if not explicitly, maintains: 1) abortion on demand; 2) immoral sexual relationships; etc.
And that's just the Republican party…
Or at least that is what the "onion smells like after you peel off the outer layers". And, don't get me started on the Democrat party.
I used to say "I'm no Democrat or Republican. I vote for The King of Kings." While I still do pledge my allegiance to Him. I now understand my position in His family and while He is still King of Kings, I don't have to vote for Him because I am part of His Body and I represent Him and His Kingdom in this world (ambassador).
As far as "babies going to heaven", Armenian theology claims they do if they die before (the un-Biblical concept) of age of accountability. Calvinists usually try to match that with "God is Love, so no innocent is doomed", but the Bible teaches that all have sinned and, without Yeshua, are bound for hell. However, God has His Elect, those that HE CHOSE from the foundation of creation. Some may be pre-born (assuredly) and some are like me, old and worthless to the world. Salvation is of the LORD and the LORD alone. That way pre-born can be saved. Mentally challenged people can be saved. Perverts can be saved. A criminal hanging on a cross, moments from death, can be saved instantaneously and for eternity.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow because only He can make people whole.

Tina December 23rd, 2007

to quote" Tim May 17th, 2007senor jefe has it right: abortion is a non-issue. Because honestly, if the supreme court overturns roe vs. wade today it would not do anything to actually stop abortions from happening. How many things have flourished because of their banned status (drugs, prostitution, etc.)? Abortion would be no different. And that is the problem - we say we want a real end to abortion - then it's time to face the facts that no amount of laws or force will end it."

As I was thinking about this comment… maybe the law won't effect how many try to get the "procedure" nee abortion done, But as a taxpayer… I DO NOT HAVE TO PAY for it!!!! ( or shouldn't have to anyway.) That is my bottom line. I cannot stop anyone from getting one.. but I don't have/want to pay for it!!

::back to your regular programming:::

Uri Brito January 10th, 2008

Steve, your point would be correct, except that God's Word gives us qualifications for office (pastoral and civil duties). It does not give us qualifications for mechanics or doctors. Mechanics only legislate morality to your car and doctors only legislate morality to your body. Hence, the best of the two is preferable–Christian or not, though a good Christian mechanic and good doctor is always preferable; don't forget that Christian doctors hold to a standard of Christian ethic, whereas an unbelieving doctor may hold to such standard, but is not bound to hold to it under his god-less worldview. This is simple Van Tillianism 101.

Jeff January 11th, 2008

I think I'll vote for Huckabee, I think McCain is a
Democrat in Republicans clothing. He's in
denial.

doyle January 23rd, 2008

Let's see:
McCain a war hero who wants to take away political speech (or at least limit it), or, Huckabee, a preacher who wants to take away personal freedom (or at least limit it).
McCain a war hero who has held a political seat of power for almost as long as I have been alive and has nothing that I know of to improve America, or, Huckabee, a preacher who wants to hold a political seat of power to force free people to conform to his idea of behavior (personal and environmental fascism) instead of preaching God's Word.
And, neither one will stop government funded murder of innocent babies.
Take your pick and throw the dice,
because either way it won't be nice.

John Breedlove February 19th, 2008

Hmmm.
Brilliant, Doyle! Thats reality.
I must respond vehemently to last May '07 blog of Senior Jefe, I have a retort/rebuke. Brother(if you are one), I dont know if you're versed in Scripture about the beauty and value of children, but Jesus never spoke about abortion b/c it was so far removed from that cultures thinking, that it was unthinkable.(He highly valued kids-Mark 10:14) –Get out of this 21st century mindset and get with ousting Roe v. Wade any way possible. Its unconstitutional, unholy, unChrist-ian, and unreal. It IS a moral position, NOT a "political maneuver". -hacked off brother in Denton TX. Vote for…?

doyle March 8th, 2008

Right on, Brother Breedlove!

Saving the economy does no good if we have lost our (collective-national) soul by killing the MOST innocent of God's creation.

Being the most powerful nation in the world (or even universe) is pitiful compared to the condemnation the murderers of innocents will receive (unless they put that sin under His blood also).

Exchanging the traditional meaning of love to describe the modern practice of fornication does nothing to improve our lives, the world, or bring us closer to Him.

May the Lord forgive the USA!

The work and the glory March 23rd, 2008

Mormons believe that authentic Christianity vanished a century after Jesus and was restored only through Joseph Smith. Considered a prophet by Mormons, Smith revised— and in his view corrected— large sections of the Bible in the 19th century. The Mormon scriptures include the Old and New Testaments, but also include books containing Smith's revelations.

Hubie November 25th, 2008

Yo! Brown!

You never did say who you voted for…..

Mike November 25th, 2008

I wonder if when Christians were calling for an end to slavery if there were people claiming that it would never be overturned and we should focus on economics and peace instead? And what does history have to say about those people now?

Thomas November 28th, 2008

Hey Mike why can't Christians Juggle more than 2 balls? I'm not a pacifist, but I think that it's more than reasonable to say that the war in Iraq was a farce and thereby an unjust war- at least according to Augustines just war theory. So why can't Christians be opposed to imperialism, abortion, hyper capitalism and uh,I guess gay marriage. I really don't consider gay marriage that high on the totem pole of societle ills that can kill people. I mean, you gotta pick your battles that can destroy innocent peoples lives. And I've never heard about a straight person getting forced into a gay marriage. But I have heard about innocent children and women getting killed in Iraq. Or should I call them 'collateral damage'?

George Dunn December 20th, 2008

I chafe when I hear op eds that talk of abortion as a "political" issue and not a moral one?! The sacredness of life and abortion as murder of the unborn is indeed a morl issue for me. It would be easier for us, I'm sure, if we would just do away with "moral issues" and make everything "political". In fact, let's just do away with morality and make everything political. We'll just vote and wahtever is the outcome will be OK with me!

We should have told the Quakers, "Don't get you knickers in a knot. Slavery is only a political issue…not moral."

Melissa February 12th, 2009

I agree abortion is a moral issue. But so is sending troops to kill and be killed in an illegal war. So is running a system that benefits the rich over the poor, where the poor may die early as they do not have the same access to health care that the rich have, where the poor are trapped in poverty cycles, while the rich get richer. Even climate change/the using up of non-renewable resources/polluting our world is a moral issue, as it is usually the poor who suffer the affects first (not to mention the fact we are called to be stewards of our world). All of these issues deal with injustice. I personally feel the left seems closer to the issues Jesus talked about most, including poverty. However, I will still ask my politicians to rethink their stance on abortion. And I hope that christians who feel that the right is closer to the values Jesus promoted would lobby their politicians to rethink their policies which produce injustice towards the poor for example.