Comments on: Want My Vote? Get Real… http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/ This blog needs a description! Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:59:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Chemical Erik http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-21076 Chemical Erik Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:39:34 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-21076 Brian - I have learned that SBE is about bring grace where it is lacking. I don't hear anyone here not standing up for their core positions. I do hear people hold back on secondary issues because they are a distraction to what is most important. Over on the PING blog, several regular callers/posters help to hold each other accountable, in a loving and grace filled way. I think the issue you're picking up on is that this site focuses on GOD and his grace, while the majority of pop Christianity, and even a significant portion of our churches today focus on us and our sin. Jesus told us the greatest commandments are to love GOD and love our neighbor. Please be careful not to place other commandments above these. I understand your position if you're considering non-Christians coming to this site. I don't fully agree, but I understand. This site is not a good place to send someone who needs to understand the fundamental concepts of Christianity. This site is about how to and what it means to live out those concepts as best we can. If taken for what it is, I find the SBE site authentic, loving, and in line with what Jesus would have us do. In the few cases where I've seen the boundries pushed, it has always ended in appropriate clarification and/or appology. Brian - I have learned that SBE is about bring grace where it is lacking. I don't hear anyone here not standing up for their core positions. I do hear people hold back on secondary issues because they are a distraction to what is most important. Over on the PING blog, several regular callers/posters help to hold each other accountable, in a loving and grace filled way.
I think the issue you're picking up on is that this site focuses on GOD and his grace, while the majority of pop Christianity, and even a significant portion of our churches today focus on us and our sin. Jesus told us the greatest commandments are to love GOD and love our neighbor. Please be careful not to place other commandments above these.
I understand your position if you're considering non-Christians coming to this site. I don't fully agree, but I understand. This site is not a good place to send someone who needs to understand the fundamental concepts of Christianity. This site is about how to and what it means to live out those concepts as best we can. If taken for what it is, I find the SBE site authentic, loving, and in line with what Jesus would have us do. In the few cases where I've seen the boundries pushed, it has always ended in appropriate clarification and/or appology.

]]> By: Hubie http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-21069 Hubie Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:00:43 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-21069 Vote Early! Vote Often! Vote Steve and Hubie in 2008! Or if you don't like that ticket; write in Chicken and Kodak! We'll make Chon Lee Secretary of Defense...... Sorry. Sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut! Vote Early! Vote Often! Vote Steve and Hubie in 2008! Or if you don't like that ticket; write in Chicken and Kodak! We'll make Chon Lee Secretary of Defense……

Sorry. Sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut!

]]> By: Brian http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-20729 Brian Sun, 10 Feb 2008 07:18:24 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-20729 I think Steve forgets to tell folks, if this incredible freedom in grace doesn't actually change your life....then you probably don't have it!! No person can actually impart the grace of "salvation" (only God can do that), they can only extend the "acts of grace" and the message in hopes of your "experiencing it" just as they have "received it". The dangers of welcoming those into the fold who are plenty thankful just for playing "name it claim it" for what they "feel" is grace bestowed on them for their sin" would also certainly be embraced by any universalist, social gospel liberal, wolves in sheeps clothing as well as anyone commiting any types of heinous sin such as murder, rape, adultery etc. Allowing grace without accountability is responsible for countless breakdowns within the church, illicit affairs for which Paul writes an entire 2 long letters of "instruction" on how Christians should "control" their own sin....as well as for the church in how it is to discipline those in the church who commit grievous sin....oh and yes....in case Steve hasn't told you.....(and I'm sure he hasn't on this blog) I will....we can and we do "grieve the Holy Spirit" when we sin.....who also btw...is God!!! It is clearly irresponsible to teach God's Grace as being "unconditional". Can anyone show me a verse which claims God's love is literally unconditional"??? James clearly states that a faith without works is a dead faith. I guess we must reinterprete James in some other way and many other verses which parenthetically warn believers, yes beleivers of the consequences of a "faithless life". A living faith "always" produces a change in the life of the converted as well as in the lives in and around the one converted used by God to either push others toward Himself or further away....some of whom regardless of how insistant they thought they had "the grace" and actually felt they genuinely experienced it (see Mathew 7) never really had it to begin with. Steve doesn't even go there.....but he should.....b/c the Scriptures do. Sometimes this Neo grace nonsense is remniscent of the New Age book "The Secret" that Oprah Winfrey touted bringing it to the best sellers list in 2007! I know of no one more corrupt in their grace inclusivity than Oprah......where the "upside"....actually is...the "downside". So...how does one distinguish those displaying an even greater Inclusivity of grace "those who accept everybody", like Oprah, to those who limit grace to Christ alone. Would you say "she also "understands grace" since she shows so much of it to so many people lost in sin??? Based upon the criterion Steve Brown upholds, you'd have to agree that she does! When you void out discernment as a part of the process in weighing in others teaching, then you're left without the ability to distinguish between false and Godly teaching....instead...we replace discernment with.....grace This Neo grace teaching is like a magnet for those stuck in church who's lives have never been converted by the power of the Holy Spirit ....ie true conversion, but alas....this new obsession with a grace that can be found outside of the Gospel screams "don't concern yourself with sin", but focus on your freedom in forgiveness, and the rest will follow. When many will soon realize their lives still haven't changed....they are left with a false impression that at least they're "forgiven"....which provides a false sense of security. My assertion is that unless we preach the full Gospel of Christ (for ex.....the verse in mathew 5:27-28 used to point how even lust is the same as adultery....is followed by verses declaring the result of "not dealing with one's sin" results in eternal damnation....we open the church to a wide range of sin which people "demand and expect God to forgive....as well as expecting others should forgive them so freely like God does....when, in fact, they may not be saved at all!! The Scriptures are filled with a careful "tension" of Grace paired with parenthetical warning about sin. To negate either one of these leads to a false teaching such as the one we have here. While Steve's message does indeed bring folks to the "playground", he is in danger of replacing those in the church who know full well that along with grace brings great accountablility..... in exchange for those who desire a grace without it.......I think it was Dr RC Sproul who once stated in terms of dealing with sin, if you don't want to be accountable ..... then YOU don't count! It is sad that as Sproul and other exhorting Christian leaders with personal conviction and discernement over sin fade, there aren't more like them around to replace them. Enjoy this new found grace all you can now.....b/c the time will come where God's accounting and judgement of a pick and choose theology will reap exactly what it sows.... Since a case for grace is made which invalidates sin happens to be the the central core of this message, .....this isn't what the Bible teaches.....and therefor qualifies as a message of false and heretical teaching. No one can say that they didn't know....cause I just told you!! SIn does matter.....and Jesus spends alot of time talking about it, and what it does to your life....why don't we hear that part of the biblical message on this site? I think Steve forgets to tell folks, if this incredible freedom in grace doesn't actually change your life….then you probably don't have it!! No person can actually impart the grace of "salvation" (only God can do that), they can only extend the "acts of grace" and the message in hopes of your "experiencing it" just as they have "received it".

The dangers of welcoming those into the fold who are plenty thankful just for playing "name it claim it" for what they "feel" is grace bestowed on them for their sin" would also certainly be embraced by any universalist, social gospel liberal, wolves in sheeps clothing as well as anyone commiting any types of heinous sin such as murder, rape, adultery etc. Allowing grace without accountability is responsible for countless breakdowns within the church, illicit affairs for which Paul writes an entire 2 long letters of "instruction" on how Christians should "control" their own sin….as well as for the church in how it is to discipline those in the church who commit grievous sin….oh and yes….in case Steve hasn't told you…..(and I'm sure he hasn't on this blog) I will….we can and we do "grieve the Holy Spirit" when we sin…..who also btw…is God!!! It is clearly irresponsible to teach God's Grace as being "unconditional". Can anyone show me a verse which claims God's love is literally unconditional"??? James clearly states that a faith without works is a dead faith. I guess we must reinterprete James in some other way and many other verses which parenthetically warn believers, yes beleivers of the consequences of a "faithless life". A living faith "always" produces a change in the life of the converted as well as in the lives in and around the one converted used by God to either push others toward Himself or further away….some of whom regardless of how insistant they thought they had "the grace" and actually felt they genuinely experienced it (see Mathew 7) never really had it to begin with. Steve doesn't even go there…..but he should…..b/c the Scriptures do.

Sometimes this Neo grace nonsense is remniscent of the New Age book "The Secret" that Oprah Winfrey touted bringing it to the best sellers list in 2007!
I know of no one more corrupt in their grace inclusivity than Oprah……where the "upside"….actually is…the "downside". So…how does one distinguish those displaying an even greater Inclusivity of grace "those who accept everybody", like Oprah, to those who limit grace to Christ alone. Would you say "she also "understands grace" since she shows so much of it to so many people lost in sin??? Based upon the criterion Steve Brown upholds, you'd have to agree that she does! When you void out discernment as a part of the process in weighing in others teaching, then you're left without the ability to distinguish between false and Godly teaching….instead…we replace discernment with…..grace

This Neo grace teaching is like a magnet for those stuck in church who's lives have never been converted by the power of the Holy Spirit ….ie true conversion, but alas….this new obsession with a grace that can be found outside of the Gospel screams "don't concern yourself with sin", but focus on your freedom in forgiveness, and the rest will follow. When many will soon realize their lives still haven't changed….they are left with a false impression that at least they're "forgiven"….which provides a false sense of security. My assertion is that unless we preach the full Gospel of Christ (for ex…..the verse in mathew 5:27-28 used to point how even lust is the same as adultery….is followed by verses declaring the result of "not dealing with one's sin" results in eternal damnation….we open the church to a wide range of sin which people "demand and expect God to forgive….as well as expecting others should forgive them so freely like God does….when, in fact, they may not be saved at all!! The Scriptures are filled with a careful "tension" of Grace paired with parenthetical warning about sin. To negate either one of these leads to a false teaching such as the one we have here. While Steve's message does indeed bring folks to the "playground", he is in danger of replacing those in the church who know full well that along with grace brings great accountablility….. in exchange for those who desire a grace without it…….I think it was Dr RC Sproul who once stated in terms of dealing with sin, if you don't want to be accountable ….. then YOU don't count! It is sad that as Sproul and other exhorting Christian leaders with personal conviction and discernement over sin fade, there aren't more like them around to replace them. Enjoy this new found grace all you can now…..b/c the time will come where God's accounting and judgement of a pick and choose theology will reap exactly what it sows….

Since a case for grace is made which invalidates sin happens to be the the central core of this message, …..this isn't what the Bible teaches…..and therefor qualifies as a message of false and heretical teaching. No one can say that they didn't know….cause I just told you!! SIn does matter…..and Jesus spends alot of time talking about it, and what it does to your life….why don't we hear that part of the biblical message on this site?

]]> By: Brian http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-20637 Brian Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:47:51 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-20637 Paul, Just forget about finding anyone taking a stand on anything on this blog. Most everyone here is so narcisistic like the founder, instead of standing for nothing and falling for everything, they go so far as to fall for "nothing". Welcome to the New Age of (Neo) grace. The resonate point that everyone's faulty....So that Everyone "deserves" grace....(here, they readily don't just ask for it...they demand it") keeps them all from standing for anything, much less sharing their opinions. So, if you aren't so pessimistic and narcisistic, how does one go about getting to know the thoughts and ideas of folks who "never give a true account of what they really believe"....it's b/c in the fatalistic stand for nothing, lack of accountability world of Steve Brown, not much of anything you ever say....will ever make much of a difference...since...well....everyone's flawed. He doesn't care about your sin....So.....what's the whole point of this reductionism post modern evangelical message anyway?? Is it possible the message could ever be purer than the one's who proclaim it?? The fact that we are flawed does not mean there aren't better candidate choices than others, nor ideas which contain "real" biblical truth (here...hidden under the thick shellac of a false neo grace which cares not for truth, taking a stand on what sin actually is (since they assume everyone knows what sin is), nor squaring off the commitment that a life called by Christ means change! ....while everyone here is busy demanding grace, Jesus is demanding obedience and has empowered believers to do so......but alas...since this new dead grace requires none, don't expect anyone here to confront, exhort, reveal, share their convictions...(other than to defend the heresy they embrace, or attempt to shoot down scripture which illumines truth and reason, which is all but denied by those (also faulty btw) who state even truth and reason are flawed so "why go there" .....it's sad to see existentialism is alive and well and kicking within Christian Pop (sub) culture......where they paint only the upside of Grace from God.....(which then, isn't really a bibilcal grace at all) . Hey.....All sunshine and no rain creates a desert...and that's exactly what this short lived psuedo gospel message is....even though it's very entertaining!! What must I do to be saved Steve??? Just embrace the grace??? Or do I have to change too?? Paul,
Just forget about finding anyone taking a stand on anything on this blog. Most everyone here is so narcisistic like the founder, instead of standing for nothing and falling for everything, they go so far as to fall for "nothing". Welcome to the New Age of (Neo) grace. The resonate point that everyone's faulty….So that Everyone "deserves" grace….(here, they readily don't just ask for it…they demand it") keeps them all from standing for anything, much less sharing their opinions. So, if you aren't so pessimistic and narcisistic, how does one go about getting to know the thoughts and ideas of folks who "never give a true account of what they really believe"….it's b/c in the fatalistic stand for nothing, lack of accountability world of Steve Brown, not much of anything you ever say….will ever make much of a difference…since…well….everyone's flawed. He doesn't care about your sin….So…..what's the whole point of this reductionism post modern evangelical message anyway?? Is it possible the message could ever be purer than the one's who proclaim it?? The fact that we are flawed does not mean there aren't better candidate choices than others, nor ideas which contain "real" biblical truth (here…hidden under the thick shellac of a false neo grace which cares not for truth, taking a stand on what sin actually is (since they assume everyone knows what sin is), nor squaring off the commitment that a life called by Christ means change! ….while everyone here is busy demanding grace, Jesus is demanding obedience and has empowered believers to do so……but alas…since this new dead grace requires none, don't expect anyone here to confront, exhort, reveal, share their convictions…(other than to defend the heresy they embrace, or attempt to shoot down scripture which illumines truth and reason, which is all but denied by those (also faulty btw) who state even truth and reason are flawed so "why go there" …..it's sad to see existentialism is alive and well and kicking within Christian Pop (sub) culture……where they paint only the upside of Grace from God…..(which then, isn't really a bibilcal grace at all) . Hey…..All sunshine and no rain creates a desert…and that's exactly what this short lived psuedo gospel message is….even though it's very entertaining!! What must I do to be saved Steve??? Just embrace the grace??? Or do I have to change too??

]]> By: Robert N. Landrum http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18581 Robert N. Landrum Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:46:10 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18581 I love you for your honesty. I hate politics. But since you like them so much maybe I will vote this time around. Let me know who the best sinner is. And we will double our vote. I love you for your honesty. I hate politics. But since you like them so much maybe I will vote this time around. Let me know who the best sinner is. And we will double our vote.

]]> By: Paul http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18526 Paul Sat, 19 Jan 2008 03:18:08 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18526 Ken, Before you accuse me of idolatry, do you see what Steve said at the bottom of his blog? "A little authenticity would help". How do you find that me stating that Ron Paul is a genuine guy, and not a fake, Messiah politics? How is campaigning for the guy I support Messiah politics? Is it just because I support Ron Paul? If I were supporting Hillary or Obama would you have said that I am using Messiah politics? No, you wouldn't have. Check out this link http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/254048.aspx Ken,

Before you accuse me of idolatry, do you see what Steve said at the bottom of his blog? "A little authenticity would help". How do you find that me stating that Ron Paul is a genuine guy, and not a fake, Messiah politics? How is campaigning for the guy I support Messiah politics? Is it just because I support Ron Paul? If I were supporting Hillary or Obama would you have said that I am using Messiah politics? No, you wouldn't have. Check out this link http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/254048.aspx

]]> By: Ken http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18505 Ken Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:12:37 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18505 Well, we see Messiah Politics rearing its head again. A WSJ editorial last week claimed it runs on a 16-year cycle and it's been 16 years since Ross Perot. I've run into them, just like in '92 when both my (then-retired, now-deceased) parents were Perotistas. Craig & Paul in this comment thread are NOT stumping for candidates; they're Witnessing for You to Accept Duncan Hunter/Ron Paul as Your Personal LORD And Savior, too. Just like their predecessors were with Ross Perot in '92. (And don't forget the Huckabeasts; Huck is positioned to become the Born-again Ross Perot of 2008 if that rumor of Christian Leaders bolting the GOP to form a Pure Christian Third Party has any substance.) Well, we see Messiah Politics rearing its head again. A WSJ editorial last week claimed it runs on a 16-year cycle and it's been 16 years since Ross Perot. I've run into them, just like in '92 when both my (then-retired, now-deceased) parents were Perotistas.

Craig & Paul in this comment thread are NOT stumping for candidates; they're Witnessing for You to Accept Duncan Hunter/Ron Paul as Your Personal LORD And Savior, too.

Just like their predecessors were with Ross Perot in '92.

(And don't forget the Huckabeasts; Huck is positioned to become the Born-again Ross Perot of 2008 if that rumor of Christian Leaders bolting the GOP to form a Pure Christian Third Party has any substance.)

]]> By: Paul http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18454 Paul Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:33:01 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18454 Ummm, gee, thanks for pointing out that they are all flawed. Everyone in the world is flawed! Pointing out the fact that people are flawed is like saying everyone has skin. Unless you think there is someone who is perfect, or that human perfection was attainable, pointing out that people are flawed is useless. It is true, however, that some are quite a bit more flawed than others, and some are better than others. Some people are pretty genuine, and some are pretty fake. Ron Paul is genuine. He is honest and humble, and he is not a talking head, or game show host look-alike. He is not running on a politically correct ticket either. He's an older, intelligent man who's has been voted the Taxpayers Best Friend for 10 years in a row. About elders, my elders better be better than me or else I quit! The Bible holds elders/bishops to very high standards of conduct. If one man can't control his household and another can, then the one who is less flawed in the area of household management should be the elder; if one is addicted to wine (drunkenness) the one who is not should be elected, etc. Does this make them better? Well, in a way, yes. Standards and qualifications are a sifting process in the quest for “betterness” (that’s my word, copywriten). At least that’s what my Chiefs, Senior Chiefs and Master Chiefs tell me in the Navy. Get it? Ummm, gee, thanks for pointing out that they are all flawed. Everyone in the world is flawed! Pointing out the fact that people are flawed is like saying everyone has skin. Unless you think there is someone who is perfect, or that human perfection was attainable, pointing out that people are flawed is useless. It is true, however, that some are quite a bit more flawed than others, and some are better than others. Some people are pretty genuine, and some are pretty fake. Ron Paul is genuine. He is honest and humble, and he is not a talking head, or game show host look-alike. He is not running on a politically correct ticket either. He's an older, intelligent man who's has been voted the Taxpayers Best Friend for 10 years in a row. About elders, my elders better be better than me or else I quit! The Bible holds elders/bishops to very high standards of conduct. If one man can't control his household and another can, then the one who is less flawed in the area of household management should be the elder; if one is addicted to wine (drunkenness) the one who is not should be elected, etc. Does this make them better? Well, in a way, yes. Standards and qualifications are a sifting process in the quest for “betterness” (that’s my word, copywriten). At least that’s what my Chiefs, Senior Chiefs and Master Chiefs tell me in the Navy. Get it?

]]> By: Hubie http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18375 Hubie Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:17:42 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18375 How about Steve Brown for President?? Never mind; I like you too much to ever see that happen to you! How about Steve Brown for President??

Never mind; I like you too much to ever see that happen to you!

]]> By: klab http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18293 klab Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:13:14 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18293 "Well…except for… Never mind." oh now thats rich "Well…except for…

Never mind."

oh now thats rich

]]> By: Craig http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18289 Craig Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:18:03 +0000 http://stevebrownetc.com/blogs/the-old-white-guy-blog/want-my-vote-get-real/#comment-18289 Even thought the main media outlets (CNN, Fox, etc.) are basically just promoting their own choices and ignoring other candidates, I would suggest that you look into the candidacy and voting record of Rep. Duncan Hunter (CA). Although, as you point out - no one is perfect - he has a nearly consistent 25+ year record on family values and support of national economic, social, and security issues. He definitely has the experience required. Thanks and God bless. Even thought the main media outlets (CNN, Fox, etc.) are basically just promoting their own choices and ignoring other candidates, I would suggest that you look into the candidacy and voting record of Rep. Duncan Hunter (CA). Although, as you point out - no one is perfect - he has a nearly consistent 25+ year record on family values and support of national economic, social, and security issues. He definitely has the experience required.

Thanks and God bless.

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