srbanks October 7th, 2008

It scares me spitless; but I'm in!

Chemical Erik October 7th, 2008

I'm sending a link to this post to my pastor!

thankful October 8th, 2008

hmm..let me pray about it. I may need to see a burning bush first. Then I'll know to go forth.

davidjames October 8th, 2008

Eight years ago after being unable to find the God I spent 40 years looking for in church, I found him in the rooms and around the tables of 12 step recovery…the real love of God that I knew must exist but could not find in church was waiting in an NA meeting for me to discover…it didn't take long to figure out that what every failing church I had ever attended needed was exactly what Steve has proposed…I even suggested it to the church where I was attending, the very same thing you are proposing Steve, to what was a fairly forward thinking church, out to serve those who were really in need….I was practically laughed out of the building by those stern old elders who were so serious about serving "GOD" (can't effect Steve's mocking tone in type unfortunately ) as they looked down their noses at a couple of drug addicts who were a blemish on their reputation …it was then that I realized that no church could truly meet the spiritual needs I had until they could attain the honesty of a Narcotics anonymous meeting and I basically walked away from organized church. What Steve is saying may be THE GREATEST truth that the church CAN'T face, that absolute honesty that is required to get better and love one another truly as we are called to do. If Christians really took the time to look at the Biblical roots of the 12 steps and realized the astonishing simplicity that they provide in a path to spiritual cleansing and honest living they would be amazed. But to most the "12 steppers" are just the fringe group that occupies the church basement on Tuesday nights and are "tolerated" for their ash trays and foul language. I hope you have better luck that I had Steve, and I suppose you do have a little more influence than I may have had…:-)

thankful October 8th, 2008

Actually it sound like a pretty good idea. Just reading about the idea seems freeing, real.

I would think that the first step to healing in anything is to admit the problem. Bust it out,, break it open. Sure we can do that in the privacy of our own, prayer, meditation or whatever but the power behind confession in a group may be first step to real accountability. Reminds me of the scripture in James about confessing your sins to one another so that you can be healed, an important part of that scripture is that it doesn't say so that you can be "forgiven" but healed, two separate steps involving you your Christian brethren and God.

What does it say in the Bible about bringing sin into the light?

It's a good proposal, Just the thought of it feels right.

Would the Kingdom of God come crashing down?,,I don't think so, you may hear a crash but it would be like lightning unto the darkness, with God doing what he does best, forgiving and exposing His ability to conquer all.

I can see Him now,,, saying,,, " bring it on" !

perimeter member October 8th, 2008

That would be so freeing! And also very scary. But I'd take it any day over wearing a mask–masks are not very comfortable except in the sense that they hide things.

Steve, I thought you'd get a good laugh out of this: I posted a link to this blog post on my Facebook page and a friend of mine called you Emergent! You can add that to the list of things people have accused you of being. Has that made the list yet? People are so afraid of grace, they'll go to great lengths to label it something they've demonized. I happen to "heart" our emergent bros and sisters. I may have some theological differences with them, but they inspire me to get my butt out of my pew and love the marginalized in our society. They're actually teaching me that and to them I say "thanks"!

Joe October 8th, 2008

Hi I'm Joe the proud.

Bradley Cochran October 8th, 2008

Well … I'm not sure it's a sure shot to revival, but I don't think it's a bad idea.

Mahthellin October 10th, 2008

Hmm. I think it IS revival. Not the complete definition necessarily, but I'm just sayin'.

perimeter member October 10th, 2008

Her's a church that put the proposal into action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvDDc5RB6FQ

Fran October 10th, 2008

I loved this blog–I loved the story, and I loved the charm and humor with which it was presented.

Stories like this make me believe, more and more, that the church is more powerful and present within the context of a small group.

DavidJames, I thought your insights were so wise and so important. I'm sorry that your proposal wasn't received well at your church. I hope you continue to reach those that many in the church seem to be foolishly avoiding.

thankful October 12th, 2008

I really loved that video,,What if that is our welcoming committee into the Kingdom of Heaven? I'm not sure how all that is going to look but that would be fine with me..

In the video, I wasn't expecting all of the people to have experienced healing. I kinda wish just one person had a "cardboard testimony" with an "on my way to full repentance" or "healing but not healed,, loved still".

umm...Ed? October 12th, 2008

My name has been changed to protect my identity. Don't rat me out Erik. I'm an achoholic, drug addict (I'd do alot more if only I could care less), smoker, sex and porn addict, deceptive, liar, foul mouthed, neglectful (of my family), self loathing, irresponsible, liberal (gasp!!). And I serve in my church (I think they'd be alright with everything else, but if they knew I was liberal…{shudder}). Oh, and I associate with sinners, prostitutes, and publicans (metaphorically speaking). Can anyone relate? I figured I'd go first. But I know Jesus loves me, and He's working on me. My father was a preacher. The depths of spiritual abuse that comes from growing up in the underbelly of the beast (ministry), is only made worse in that it's udderly unrecognized as such. There's a good reason preacher's kids have the reputation they have. They grow up seeing behind the masks of the deacons, and elders, and youth leaders, and music directors, and pastors, and office people, and watch while THEY live in denial, putting on the best show they can. But, I digress. I learned I had to unlearn a lot to learn The Gospel, and the Truth of it that eluded me (and so many other christians) for so long. And now I know. And I'm witnessing Christ changing my heart from the inside out. And it's painful. And incredibly beautiful. (Don't tell my dad though Steve…I don't think he could take the news…just kidding…joke at my dad's expense…I repent…)

thankful October 13th, 2008

Ed, I hope you continue on your path to full recovery and victory for the lifestyles that crowd out your confidence.

You know there is some caution to be exercised confessions if they are to be heard in public. Actually some confessions are why some churches have encouraged small groups. I guess I can see the benefit of not publicly letting it all out. After All it is just as big of sin that we as Christians like to judge and gossip too,,at times.

I know in our small group there was a man who decided to bring his adultery confession to us without telling his wife first. She heard it for the first time at the same time we did. It was an awful mess.
So yeah I'm still for cardboard confession and cardboard confessions of those who are still struggling and just needing prayer there is some transparency in letting others see that we are not perfect.

Secrecy is a type of bondage.

KLAB October 13th, 2008

Hi I'm Klab (screen name) I am addicted to food and television and I long for things to change yet do nothing to start it. I would rather laugh and joke my way through life hiding the tears of blood. is there hope for me?

thankful October 13th, 2008

There is power in this statement ..

"(I'd do a lot more if only I could care less),"

I'm glad you care that's a beautiful thing.

Klab of course there is hope ,
As saved sinners we are whole and complete in God's eyes.
In the flesh we may still have constraints. I think that's what we live through here.

Maybe when we do what WE can to change the desires of our fleshly callings then it deepens our spiritual connection to God, because we did it out of obedience to the flesh calling out for change..Maybe the deepening spiritual connection is the benefit of us not receiving healing without our own input towards change.

Fran October 14th, 2008

Thankful, that's a very wise caution above about public confessions. Sorry, Steve, but that's why your proposal probably wouldn't work.

Years ago, our pastor called a Sunday night "prayer service" and urged everyone to come. He surprised everyone by beginning with a confession. He talked about the need to "get real" and urged others to do the same. Some of the staff followed in public confession. It was shocking. People in the church then began taking the mike and confessing all sorts of things. It was awkward, uncomfortable, and painful, but the forgiveness, counseling and prayer that followed was wonderful, beautiful. But that only lasted a while.

As time went on, there seemed to be some prone to gossip and bringing up someone's "problem" at inappropriate times. Others, who didn't confess, seemed to think, "Well, I'm not THAT bad, so I must be doing just fine." Still others left the church because "See! None of those people are any better than I am, so they don't have the answers either."

Small groups seem to be the better vehicle for confession.

um...Ed? October 14th, 2008

Ahh yes…that's the wonderful thing about the internet…anonimity, and the freedom to say whatever you want without anyone knowing who you are…mwaahaha! In all seriousness though, those are extreme definitions of those things I struggle with. There is nothing I struggle with that I hide from my church or my wife. Our secrets keep us sick. But I wanna get better. Thankfull, I am thankfull (HA!!) for the last paragraph of your last post. I've been meditating on it. that was great. thanks.

Papias October 15th, 2008

Love the proposal.

"and you get to dance without caring what people think about how well you dance."

That qoute made me remember why I didn't dance for a long time. You see, I used to go dancing, then one of my friends said that I "dance like a penguin". Guess how many times I went dancing after that?

Makes me think of how many other things we would do if we didn't care what others thought….

Alan October 17th, 2008

Steve

Thank you for confirming all of mys suspicions about Perimeter church.

And tell Randy that I love him and I knew he would gather a great cloud of sinners.

I hope you went out for a good smoke with that crowd after the prayer meeting.

Oh and my sin is confessional procrastination. I will tell you more when I get around to it.

Mike October 20th, 2008

I recently had a conversation with the Lord in which He told me that the only thing I wouldn't give Him was my reputation. The thing is, I'm pretty sure He doesn't know how hard I've worked to get and maintain my reputation. And now I've got this crazy old white guy who smokes a pipe telling me that I'm supposed to confess my deepest sin.

Why this would change everything!

………….and I'm a Baptist. We don't change.

KLAB October 21st, 2008

see mike confession is good for the soul you confessed your a baptist now repent just kidding

Tony Heringer October 21st, 2008

Steve,

I agree with your idea. As many have posted here, confession is good for the soul. Groups like CR provide a safe place for this type of interaction to take place. I think that is why that particular ministry is thriving at Periemter these days.

I joked with some of my friends here that we should just make all of our discipleship groups go through CR. Over time most small groups get to that point. If they don't they just dissolve because the folks in those groups are not being real with each other.

Thanks for coming and ministering to us here at Perimeter Church as a part of our teaching team. And thanks for the plug for CR and Randy Pope too. My wife, son and I attended a 25 celebration for a Perimeter daughter church (Intown Community Church) Saturday night. She came to Christ through the ministry of that church over 20 years ago. She and I met on a short term mission trip shortly thereafter. It was a trip sponsored by that church through Perimeter — at that time Perimeter was "one church, with many congregations" spread over north metro Atlanta. Now those congregations are independent churches planting daughter and grand-daughter churches all over the Atlanta area and beyond.

Randy and Carol Pope have been used by God to work in and through the lives of countless folks over the years. My family has been literally shaped by their ministry and yours as well.

Keep fighting the good fight!

Doug October 22nd, 2008

Hi Steve
I wrote this before but don't think it got through. Anyway my church found out "one" of my worst sin's in a strange way. Yes GOD did it. In 1999 Iwas found guilty of giving gifts to public officials to get sales. Yes I was. Iwas addicted to the love of money just like a junkie. As I was on my way back to repenting I thought about the prison ministry. Sense I could have been there but for the grace of GOD. The ironic part is they would not let me in because of what I had done.That's right I almost went now I can't get in. We did wright them a letter and they let me do the ministry. Oh yes the church love's me anyway and GOD does to.
GOD bless you Steve and Key Life

mybigGod October 25th, 2008

I dont know, but ive been seeing this kind of rehabilitation from the seventies. I think it was called the Seed. I guess it made some people aware that there are addictions that are hard to break. I know that there is a certain level of freedom. But then we can always give ourselves the freedom to question any kind of program. Dont think that for some people confessing something is what they like the best. I mean , ive held a lot of things close to the vest , and had to seethe with anger and it doesnt really work well as far as an experience of the love of God. And well, maybe i like to think that there are others who may just be passing on a program that will continue until the cows come home because it seems that the more the programs of this kind change and are adding different ideas to the original model in the seventies it still seems that from one generation to another there is an excitement and a freedom from some kind of bad behavior, but maybe like me there is no answer to being addicted to the pride of feeling good by confessing. I really dont even trust myself to be motivated to persevere and learn something new after the initial good feelings of being in a group and confessing all that stuff. I ve seen this for a number of generations. Maybe my hiding my sin is better for my changing in the long run. Cause there is nothing worth confessing that is worthy of not being something that every other persons sin doesnt come before them as an addictive problem. Well there s always someone who disagrees. Go ahead and call me proud. I totally agree.

mybigGod October 25th, 2008

I dont know about you but maybe all of this structure is just a cry for something that we cant really put into making things better. My experience with having a lot of people around me with a lot of answers is from the world as well as from the christian community. I just want to live my life without a lot of complicated things to do. Is that to much to ask? Or am i being too impossible in wanting to be different. I have always found that people in general want to do the rite thing. Thats not really what makes me want to get along in this world. I mean if i did everything for everybody, then i might fall in line with every bodies ideal. I am not sure that the ideal is what is rite tho. I mean just because everybody is doing something rite doesnt mean its the best for me.
And even if someone is really setting the example and trying really hard to fall in line, maybe their trying so hard is just an assumption that its the rite thing to do. I ve found that most people are really interested in telling others to do the rite thing but then they want to think that what they do is an example of what they are telling you to do. And maybe what they are doing is not what they think about themselves as being as helpful to you because maybe they are not as rite as they think they are. I dont know but i think the problem is that everyone does the rite thing for the wrong reasons. Otherwise why would there be so many people who think they are better then the next guy. Maybe its because there is so much structure that its easy to find a middle ground so that everyone can feel secure in how they measure up to everyone else. I guess ive got a problem falling in line.

KLAB October 27th, 2008

see now I thought we were confessing so that there is a cleansing and an acountability in the fellowship of GOD's people. not one upmanship. I want to be right for the right reasons not wrong for the right reasons hmmm that seemsodd can one be wrong for the right reasons?

mybigGod October 27th, 2008

The bible is very specific about confessing sin. First confession does not gain a new righteousness. God does not forgive us based upon our confession. We agree with God that we have sinned specifically but we draw our forgiveness and peace from Christ alone. Not even from other people. Confession is not a universal answer to men s problems.
Second we cannot possibly confess every sin that we commit on a daily basis. We don t even see some sins. We think sin is in categories , and we view our sin as primarily an action we committed. We are naturally given to make sin a list of what society calls sin rather than seeing sin as an offense to God that requires an eternal sacrifice. We do not see sin as demanding an eternal punishment that only Christ can satisfy. Its easier to lower our view of sin by practicing confessing before men. We have this strong desire to make something more important than it really is. In this case its easier for us to put man in the place of our high priest rather than seeing the value of Christ sacrifice. Sin is like a person, we struggle with twenty four seven. What ever we do as a good work including all of the reconciling is dirty rags before a holy God. We are righteous by imputation. Not by a friend or a relative or a priest, or a good work, or a rehabilitation, a doctor, a faith healer, a counselor , politician and on and on and on. Now lets talk about this on a regular basis.

KLAB October 27th, 2008

wow it is like a light exploding in my head, I have never understood it before,

"We are naturally given to make sin a list of what society calls sin rather than seeing sin as an offense to God that requires an eternal sacrifice. "

that may be why the distance.

Bradley Cochran October 31st, 2008

Steve … your blog needs a new post!!

Snowden ( a female) October 31st, 2008

I "found" Jesus too when He became my Higher Power, even though I had gone to Sunday school and had even joined a church (gave my life to Christ). I went back to college just as my daughter was graduating from high school. At college, I met a young lady who talked me into joining church again. I've been a member of my church (not hers) off and on for approximately 18 years. I'm a different person now, and I think for the worse. Too bad for me. However, the members do seem to have unconditional love for me. But I have to remain there–no freedom to go anywhere else. I'm legalistic now, confused, and don't know how to treat people "right", and I sin an awful lot, which makes me cry. I have no real friends now, because of my sin, and Scripture comes to mind quite a bit telling me to be ye separate. I'm all alone. And yet, one of the sisters at my church keeps telling me that I am not alone because of God. I wish I was free like I used to be, with the ability to make decisions, take courses without worrying about having to prove my spirituality all the time. Be able to hold on conversations and actually use my brain to think instead of always having to use my brain to come up with something that I know the Lord would want me to say, and, believe it or not, I would like to have friends who sin sometimes without having to be reminded that, 'Blessed is the man who standeth not in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful, etc.' (paraphrasing) Although no man is an island, I have become one because although I sin constantly and am always always always always aware of my sin, I have to come out from among them and be separate. Did I forget to tell you that I have no friends now????

Snowden ( a female) October 31st, 2008

To add another comment. When my church used to have testimony night, I was informed when I first joined, that a testimony is not to tell "all of your business". I don't fit in there, but I love my church, I have 'radical' views like, the prostitutes will get into heaven before the "religious" leaders, and that Christ came to save the lost–not the righteous. And also, I can't understand what is the purpose of one telling the congregation to dress-up when they come to church because they're coming to God's house and that you shouldn't come into God's house any old kind of way, and that the women are to have their arms covered and wear hosiery. I know that the Bible talks about dressing modestly–not gold, pearls or costly clothing–I guess I'm too much of a sinner to understand.

Do you actually think my church would have people giving testimonies about any sins? No. I truly believe that I am the biggest, worst, most despicable sinner there (and we used to have hundreds–thousands of members). You see I keep sinning since I've been saved–doing the awful things that even Jesus Himself said not to do or not doing the things He said to do. However, I know that God wants me at this church because everytime I try to go somewhere else, all you-know-what breaks loose, and maybe the Lord is trying to teach me discipline and how to be a lady and self-controlled. I guess I'm getting too old now, and need to change my views and behavior and to conform.

I digress…. but I sure would have like to have been there with you, Steve, I would have fit right in!

Tony Heringer October 31st, 2008

Snowden,

Run, don't walk to the nearest exit of that "church" you are in. There is a reason the numbers have diminished and its not because they are preaching the Gospel. The Truth divides to be sure, but not that way. If you are ever in the Atlanta area you are welcome at Perimeter Church (www.perimeter.org) anytime. I'd also recommend listenning to the "Radical Freedom" podcasts on this site. I think that will aide your exodus from that "church".

mybigGod November 2nd, 2008

I guess its confession time. I m not going to share any of the juicy stuff. But at the same time i cant help liking this forum stuff. I mean if there was anyone who was more personally confronted with sin and negativity it is moi. And it is just more of a conformation that i am bent on being negative when others say , Your so negative. Dont you know your suppose to accept the things you cannot change? Well ok call me odd but i cant change myself. Uh, so you can call me names. Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. Thats why its so easy to be negative since all i see is the world caving in around me. What is darkness but my view of this world. And maybe there is some boxes i can put these things in until the rite time. Well this confession is getting to be a bit self indulgent on the feeling sorry for myself part. I know thats a problem as well. I tried to forget it but it is not easy . I know i am suppose to forget those things. But every time i try then the little bird y , the one who has more friends than i do, well he tells me to suck it up and get going. Wheres my b lanky? wheres my box? After that i want one for myself.

ok , maybe i like to dwell in the dungeon of life a little to much. What ever you think i am the worst at being odd. Ok, i could paint my fingernails black and play the part. Thats me in my real self. Totally a failure. And then i cant accept that this is all i see. When i see myself in the mirror of this world i dont even come close to measuring up. Its an ongoing problem. Now i feel much better.

Thomas November 6th, 2008

Sounds great except all the pharisees in the Church WILL use your sin against you. I believe in wise confession, having one or two people to tell all of your dirty laundry.

Wendy November 9th, 2008

Thomas, do you really care what the pharisees think? Do you want to be in bodage to them? Or do you want to be free in Jesus? The world hates us because they think we judge them when they know we ourselves are sinners…even more than we admit to ourselves. They see it. When we are open and honest about who we are or were we disarm them. I've had opportunities to share my faith with people who hated christians and anything to do with Christianity because they knew who I really was. They knew I was a drug addict and a sex addict…I didn't pretend to be anything else. Only I love Jesus and I am forgiven. Each and every time I've been told…you're different from the church crowd. Praise God!

mybigGod November 12th, 2008

People do not become mature over night. Discipleship starts with an intense conversion of the intellect in order to understand the disposition of grace. Its not finding the way through being under the false assumptions of following a moral set of guidelines as a way of passing a program on to the disciple. Because we do not learn by assuming by acting in a certain behavior that we have understood what is necessary to follow a spiritual course of understanding the disposition we are required to have as teaching this way of new life. I mean we are not under the obligation to live in the same way in a cultural way as other men do. Nor are we required to follow a way where we emphasize one truth at the expense of the other in order to avoid the underlying power structure of trusting in things and people without understanding the personal nature of self awareness through the knowledge of scripture as to its meaning.

Sheryl November 17th, 2008

I love the idea of Cardboard Testimonies. The YouTube video previouly shared is extremely moving. Granted, we don't have to expose our "secrets" to one another in order to share them with God…and it appears all the "secrets" shared on the YouTube example were ones that had already been acknowledged and dealt with on a very personal and public level. Maybe it's not the time to reveal your adulterous behaviors to an unknowing spouse. There should always be a level of respect and decorum with those whom we share a special relationship. And, those inclined to gossip after being the recipient of such an intimate sharing of secrets? Shame on them, but the sinner who has come forward with his secret should be upheld as one who has truly sought repentence. No shame should fall on them, even at the mouths of gossips.

srvdove November 30th, 2008

>And when you've seen as much as I have, you've learned that the "victorious Christian life" is really just keeping your nose above water and the goal isn't winning the world to Christ, but simply not losing too many.

Is it ok if I use a snorkel? Thanks, boy do I need to hear more of this, it goes in but then leaks out again! Thanks!!!!

klab December 11th, 2008

snorkels are fine however sometimes those pesky birds land on them and up you will come a sputtering.

George December 20th, 2008

I think talk is cheap. Why don't you go first!

Chris Pierce December 27th, 2008

Brown,

You are a blessing! Too bad our Lord Jesus has never placed us close enough to one another in service. You are an encouragement of the highest order.

A Fellow Ploughboy in the service of Jesus,

Chris

beacon2 January 4th, 2009

What we need to confess over, and over, and over again until we come to believe its reality, is our identity in Christ. Who we are in Christ–children of God who are under a Cov of Grace where the unprofitable things we do in this world are not counted against us. Just try saying that in a congregation and see how fast you are labeled a "heretic."

But instead of focusing in our identity as children of God, we have this fixation on our unprofitable actions–sins, sins, sins. Don't we know? God is finished with sin. He judged it, Christ paid the penalty, and now He has placed us under a covenant where there are not written laws to condemn us. And where there is now law, there is no transgression (that God will charge against us). Try confessing that and see where it gets you! Booted out the door!

Ray the Recovering Cynic January 17th, 2009

I loved your idea so much, Steve, that I posted a link to this article over at a Christian discussion forum where I help moderate. And got flamed to a well-done crisp for even suggesting it. The reason most often given for rejecting your idea was "what will the other people in the congregation do to me if they knew my sins?" It never seemed to dawn on them that EVERYONE would be confessing, therefore no one would have a leg to stand on, let alone launch an attack with.

(I didn't tell them — and maybe I should've — that I once did just this, confessing a rather heinous sin in front of a congregation of which I was a part. A few people really couldn't get past what I did (the sin, not the confessing), but I found so much support, healing and fellowship through opening myself up like that. I lost track of how many people said they would pray for me … and how many confessed that they had sinned in just the same fashion I had, and would stand with me and help me up out of the mire. One of the scariest, most wrenching, SMARTEST moves I've ever made. To God be the glory.

Mich March 26th, 2009

Steve,
A wonderful idea! Where did this idea start that Christians must be perfect in public? Didn't Jesus say that He came for the sick and sinners?

Amen.