señor jefe June 5th, 2007

Steve,

What a wonderful revelation of God as Father.

Still, any good father will not reward disobedience. How do you feel the scriptures that speak of God's 'chastening' jibe with this concept of God as a not-angry, good & kind Father?

Steve Brown June 6th, 2007

Good thought. In fact, seems to make sense, but the conclusion is wrong.

First, a father does discipline (that is clear in Hebrews 12.) But
that statement has been used so often to manipulate people that it drives me nuts. Yeah, God loves you, but if you get out of line, he'll break your legs…but he will do that in love.

If there were a correlation between God's discipline and our sin, we would all be dead.

Every time a Christian gets cancer, loses his or her job, breaks a leg or is in a car accident, that Christian (if he or she has been
manipulated with the discipline passage) will ask, "What did I do wrong? How did I tick off God?"

"I stole a quarter from my mother's pocketbook when I was a teenager and that's why I have cancer."

That's neurotic.

The discipline of a loving father has four elements to it…

1. We know exactly why we are being disciplined. Good fathers not only discipline, they explain the exact reason they are disciplining their children.

2. It is short lived. That text makes reference to our fathers who disciplined us "for a short time."

3. It accomplishes its purpose. God isn't a child abuser.

4. The discipline is never from anger. My father only spanked me twice that I remember…and he cried both times. "If you then, being evil, how much more your Father in heaven."

No, God isn't angry. How can he be angry at His own Son? We have the righteousness of Christ credited (i.e. imputed) to our account.

Let me tell you something that has blown me away. I have sometimes preached my best sermons when I was sinning the most. I don't want to be presumptuous here…but God was teaching me something important and that is that he loves me and uses me when I'm obedient and when I'm not. That's because it isn't about me. It's about him.

No, God doesn't encourage sin…He doesn't have to. But if he
didn't love us even in our sin we would never get any better.

When I was a paper boy and delivered the morning papers, I and my friends would sometimes steal cherry pies that had been left in front of the market near where we picked up the papers. (Best cherry pie I ever had.)

My friends would say, "Man, if my father ever found out about this, he would kill me."

I never understood that. I would think, "If my father finds out, he will love me and that's a lot worse."

I didn't steal many cherry pies after that. It wasn't worth the price of his love.

Zach V June 6th, 2007

Great follow-up Steve!

I recently encouraged a friend to start listening to the Scandalous Freedom podcasts. Over the past few weeks it has been amazing to see him becoming more and more free. This last podcast, however gave him pause. I think your response to "senor jefe" will clear up a lot.

Keep up the awesome, Spirit-filled work!

Mike June 6th, 2007

Steve,

I'm fully on board with God's lack of anger toward us– In fact, that's what finally freed me from a lot of futile hustling. However, a question we've batted around in my family has to do with whether God is ever disappointed with us when we sin. My mother, (the nice lady whose book you signed last Friday night,) maintains that God could never be disappointed with us due to the imputation of Christ's righteousness. I'm not so sure that's right, but I'm not sure it's wrong, either. What do you think?

señor jefe June 6th, 2007

Thanks Steve. I always knew there was something wrong with that disciplinarian God thing, but I never heard it put quite this way.

I did a little research on that word "chastening". Turns out, the same Greek word is used in II Timothy 3:16, translated "instruction".

I wonder if God doesn't "chasten" us through His instructions to us (ie- through the scriptures). I know there've been times I've blown it, only to hear someone mention a scripture about God's grace or love that totally convicts me (not condemn)…

Thanks for doing this podcast. It's very helpful.

Erik June 6th, 2007

Mike,

For God to be disappointed, something would have to happen that didn't meet His expectations. If God knows everything, then His expectations could never be unmet. Therefore, God can't be disappointed.

How does that scripture go? He knows our frame and remembers that we are dust? Something like that.

So cool that He loves us because of the quality of His love and not the quality of our behavior.

Joshua June 7th, 2007

I have a question. When do I get to stop trying to figure out how to live and just live? But seriously folks, I totally believe that God loves me and wants what's best for me but in all of this I keep coming back to one question. If God does love us as much as He says why didn't He just take us home with Him when He went? Wouldn't that have been easier for everyone?

Mike June 7th, 2007

Erik,

Good thoughts– I think I was looking at it like a human father, and not considering how an omniscient, omnipresent, omni-everything else God might see things. It amazes me that God still loves us when he knows not only that we'll fail, but exactly when and how. There's a huge difference between human beings with a capacity to love, and a God who IS love.

David Dionne June 27th, 2007

What do you do when you don't know what you believe? I'm 36 and have maintained that I was saved when I was 22 becuase I suddenly "got it" while reading Josh McDowells "More then a Carpenter" But right now in my life, things are such that I litterally hate god and I'm using a lower case g to drive home my hatred for him publicly…and yes, I am sooo scared, in fact I can't believe I'm even writing this, but if I push aside my fear and speak on how I feel, I hate him and I have been cursing him for months now…i hate him for how he allowed Job to be treated. I can feel my rage and anger boiling over to the point that my cursing him is almost like turrets syndrom. Why would I ever want to be involved with him? All I have is an ancient book that uses incest and molestation to account for populating the earth and people with lightning and flames shooting out of their finger tips destroying armys of people…why doesnt that happen anymore? I can honestly say that I don't think I've ever heard god say anything, Why would anyone ever design a system like this?? IT'S INSANE!!!! I can understand the whole, I want you to CHOOSE to love me, out of your own free will….but GIVE ME A BREAK, AN ANCIENT BOOK!!! Written by morons then rewritten by the catholic church to include PURGATORY and SHEIT like that, taylord to keep the money flowing? What is there for me to love? or want to be close to? NOTHING, all that I can see existing is FEAR….WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER CHOOSE TO GO SOMEWHERE WHERE YOU WILL LITTERALLY WATCH THE FLESH BURN AND DRIPPING OFF OF YOUR BODY NOT TO MENTION FEELING IT AND THEN TO FEEL MAGGOTS DEVOURING BONE AS THEY BURROW THROUGH YOUR SKELETON FOR ALL OF ETERNITY??????!!!!?!?!?!?!!! And how about me? While I'm not sure, I would have to bet that in one of my 3049850943030455038305483 gazillion rages against god in the last year, I have a pretty good feeling that i've commited the unforgivable sin….so where does that leave me now??? It leaves me furious….and heartbroken and horrified and depressed and crazy feeling and tiny…

Sorry for dumping but I just don't get it anymore….

Jake June 29th, 2007

Your honesty is awesome, David. I doubt too. It seems like a fairy tale sometimes. I don't hear God or feel anything that I can't explain some other way. No point in hiding our feelings from God. If he doesn't exist, then it doesn't matter and if he does, then he knows our thoughts anyway.

I am still clinging to the hope that God can and will forgive you and me. It is a historical fact, documented in the ancient book of the Bible and verified in other documents, that Jesus died on the cross. If you believe Jesus is God, then you realize that God died for you. The death of God on the cross is a tangible reminder of God's love for us - even when we don't feel it or hear him or see him at work in other ways currently. Take comfort in the cross. Seek and he will find you.

jim reeves July 22nd, 2007

I struggled with the sin issue for many years. Until I finally realized that God forgave me 2000 years ago. When I began to understand that my daily sins did'nt effect God or his love for me. That it only hurt my quality of life, and sometimes had terrible effects on the people around me. My heart and mind began to change, and i began to see that all these terrible thoughts and evil attitudes I had toward God were from satan and the world. I am far from what I would like to be, but as I look back over the last 30 years. I find that God never abandoned me no matter what I thought, or did, and Iv'e done some pretty horrible things after I became a child of God through Christ my lord. In spite of all that I'm alot better today than I was then.

Angela October 2nd, 2007

David, I hope you're still checking this thread. Maybe you are, or maybe you will in the future. I am so sorry for your pain and others have said some things, which I would echo, better than I could. So I just want to give you a couple of other thoughts to hang on to. No matter what our doubts, our anger, even our hatred of Him at times (and I have been down that road, railing against circumstances God allowed into my life that I just didn't see the purpose of) - remember that if you belong to Him, He will never - not EVER - let you go. You can run, and plenty (if not all) of us do at various times on this journey called life. But He won't let you be lost. There is NO unforgivable sin that is too big for Him - Christ died for ALL sins. If He can't save us from our anger at him and (like Peter) our soul-deep denial of Him, whenever that denial comes, then He can't save us at all. Trust that you ARE forgiven. Even when you're mad and scream and yell at Him. He knew all that was going to happen, and He forgave you BEFORE you did it. He's strong enough to die (and return to life) for sins He never committed, so trust that He's also strong enough to take whatever you can dish out If you have ever trusted Christ and been saved, you are saved still. Even if you're mad, and it just doesn't make sense anymore - the incredible and most amazing thing is He'll still be there, holding out His hands and welcoming you back. You can never fall too far for Him to catch you. His grip never fails.

I'm adding you to my prayer list and I hope you'll revisit these forums and be encouraged.

Larry Waite October 4th, 2007

So, Steve, are you a realist? I believe Jesus took our nature on Him as He found it, not a scrubbed up nature, but an infant "old man", yet He NEVER sinned. He could not sin, and when He went to the cross he bore the old nature to the death for each of us. Bless God for dying for me!!