Joshua June 1st, 2007

Erik…that's the funniest flippin piece description you've ever put forth. I mean, "turn" gays to the hetero side of the force" and, "Gay, straight, or somewhere in between"? That's good stuff right there.

Mike June 14th, 2007

Is it wrong for us to say that God says being gay is wrong? We can say that adultery and murder and gluttony are wrong, right? I seem to be getting more and more confused these days. Do we have to disregard the things that God says are bad, because we ourselves are bad too, and since we can't be perfect and no one else can either we shouldn't say anything to anyone about behavior that God says is bad? See why i'm confused. If we say something is bad, even if God says it is bad we are then a legalist and don't understand grace and Jesus' love and forgiveness of our own sinfullness? This is not anyform of attack I really don't get it…..

Steve Brown June 15th, 2007

Hi Mike,

Of course homosexual practice is wrong and sinful.. as is being fat, being self-righteous and demeaning others. Harvest USA and John Freedom are very clear on the sin. But they are more clear on Christ and the need for repentance.

Repentance is two things. First, it isn't change… it is God's methodology to change us if that's what he proposes to do. And secondly, it is the bridge that takes us to God who will love us despite our sin. If there is no repentance, there is no need to even go to him.

And you're right… admitting that we don't live up to a standard doesn't mean that the standard should be lowered. In fact, if the standard (God's perfect law, the Psalmist says) isn't clear there can be no repentance and, therefore, no relationship to the God who always loves when we come to him.

And without repentance we can't experience what Luther defines as Sanctification, to wit, "Getting used to being forgiven."

People who are forgiven, generally get better…but they never get better enough to earn God's love and grace.

You're a good brother. Thanks for writing.

Bless,

Steve

Mike June 15th, 2007

Wow, I didn't expect a reply from the Old White Guy himself. I have been listening to all the podcasts for a while and reading the blogs. I have had a few discussions with some of the listeners too. I enjoy the programs but sometimes I get the vibe that since we are all not good enough we are never allowed to call others to be better. Since we know Jesus and are forgiven much by Him we have to accept everyone else and love them. I am all for that, but I still think if I am behaiving inapropriately someone should be allowed to tell me to straighten up. They can love me and be nice to me but isn't that part of loving people too, letting them know where they are screwed up and calling them to change? Most everytime I have felt convicted of sin and felt the need to change was because someone told me that what I was doing was wrong. I know that the people confronting me wern't perfect either and I don't expect that from them cause I know they can't. I don't know,,,, isn't it God's law and demand for perfection that drives us to realize that we need His forgiveness?

In the past I have suffered from some of the things you mentioned, I have been self rightious and demanding of others. I have been and still am fat, I have commited many sins that I know most people havn't, so I do not sit in judgment of others, but I think God would like for us to help each other to get better no matter how short of perfect it is, and no matter how much more a sinner I am than others. Just because i'm fat doesn't mean that being fat is ok, it is still wrong, well gluttony is wrong, and slugardness and laziness and sloth, which all cause fatness. Are my questions making sense?

Its can see what is wrong with demanding everyone to obey the laws and punishing when they fail to be perfect, but I also see something wrong with telling everyone do whatever you want, God is ok with it and so are we. Is there a middle?

Thanks for everything
and for taking it easy on me, i'm not trying to cause trouble just understand…
Mike

Naomi June 17th, 2007

This subject is so close to me and my daughters heart. Of course the most important thing in our life is the knowledge that Jesus is so important to our life, and we love him so very much. I myself, have to love the person with a gay lifestyle, but not wanting this for myself. I have experienced kind of the other side, which is being married and having a child of a man that decided he was living a lie. He could never talk about it, he was in the ministry in the church, and me on the other hand thinking everything was my fault. So in this hand it was tough. Having a daughter that has battled with this sittuation since she figured this out at the age of 9, now she is 31. Knowing how much she has been pained from this, was the way it hurt me, not becuse he decided to come out and live this lifestyle. God has been the only source that has gotten both of us through, this to all say, when will this lifestyle speak really to the children. They do actually crave both a mom and dads affection. I am so blessed to have come across Key Life, and Steve Brown.

Steve Brown Etc. » Blog Archive » Homosexuals and the Church (Re-Air) July 6th, 2007

[…] radio stations across the country will be re-airing the previously broadcast episode of SBE titled, Homosexuals and the Church. If you missed it, hit play below or download the mp3 and listen later. Don't forget, you can get […]

Tammy July 18th, 2007

Steve,

I am so thankful to Jesus that you and John are saying that the most important thing is to bring a person to Christ. Then let Christ work in a persons life. I am a lesbian myself and have been saved for about 13 years. I have also been in a commited relationship with my partner ( a woman) for many years and I have struggled so much in my head and my heart with the church saying we are going to hell for this. I know that I am not going to hell because Jesus is my Savior. I wish that some one in the church could have said this long ago because so many homosexuals have taken their own lifes thinking that god does not love them and never will unless they change. This is huge for the relationship of the Church and the homosexual. I have said to my heterosexual christian family (friends and actual blood family) for years that the
church is going about this all wrong. The most important thing is for a person to come to Christ. If you have accepted christ as your savior he will take you where he wants you to be. I am not convinced that the fact that I am in love with a woman and have never been attracted to a man is a sin, but I am listening to what you guys have to say about it and not shutting out your view on the matter. Thanks for stepping up to the plate and doing what jesus would have done (and maybe did do) while he was on this earth when faced with a homosexual person.

Thanks and God bless this ministry.

Tammy

Doyle July 28th, 2007

Oh, Steve… OH, STEVE…
I have listened to your radio show for years (whenever I was in range). I have always considered you a forerunner for Grace. I have enjoyed your, sometimes, oblique attacks at "traditional Christianity".

Please reconsider calling "being fat" a sin. The Bible, as far as I studied it, never condemns "being fat" as a sin. It DOES condemn gluttony, but this is a intentional over consumption of food for the sake of it. It may result in "being fat", but not necessarily (consider the familiar disorder of binging/purging.) Many people say just what you say. Even my Bible class teacher says things like: "I have a real problem with someone who condemns homosexuals when they are as big as a horse!"

I am hypoglycemic and must eat several times a day to maintain blood sugar/insulin balance. Genetically, I am predisposed to gaining and maintaining fat deposits. As the doctor says: "Your genes are designed to make you a survivor in famine conditions."

As a laundry route driver I service upwards of 170 stops (customers) during a 6 to 8 hour shift while driving over 100 miles through neighborhoods and business districts. I eat only what is necessary (just snacks (nuts and such) while working and I don't take a lunch break). You'd think from this routine that I wouldn't be fat, right? But at 5 foot 9 inches, I weigh almost 250 lbs!

Am I sinning by being fat? I don't think so!

Do I sin in other areas? Certainly!

Please do not condemn people for their state of being. Just tell everyone that sin is something you think or do, not what you are.

Thank you for letting me contribute.
Doyle

John August 25th, 2007

Not my words but God's.
Lev. 18: 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Gary Hubbard September 4th, 2007

We can blab all day about what we think! Steve is very good at that! We can talk about what God says or we can repeat what God actually says. No smoke and mirrors! Straight up! It's not what we think God says but what God actually says through the authority of the Holy Scriptures. THUS SAITH THE LORD!

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Ga 5:19-24 AV)

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1Jo 3:7-10 AV)

Pretty clear isn't it!

Yup! Another one of those unloving crazies that Steve talks about! Blah! Blah! BLAHBLAHABLABLAH! TALK TALK TALK!

kathy shields September 22nd, 2007

A friend who I admire and respect invited me to her church to listen to your sermon. She told me that you speak the truth and make people think, so I dropped into this blog to get a feel for your style and values when dealing with volatile issues of the day like homosexuality. Frankly your glib comparison of homosexuality to obesity made me laugh. You have got to be kidding! Are you always so prone to gross exaggeration? Who can be helped and how can God's love be revealed in such a generalization? My friend was right. You do make people think.

kisha October 24th, 2007

Okay; so, I was in class the other day (a college psychology class) and we were all sitting around talking about gay and lesbian issues. And, living in bible belt, America, there were these issues where everyone was either bashing homosexuals or failing to comment. And, this really brave man spoke up and said that he was a Christian, he had a salvation experience, had grown up in a christian home. He went to christian camps. He tried to date girls, but he just found out that he wasn't attracted to them. He said he prayed and prayed for God just to make him normal…when he realized that he was homosexual. He said he went through a time of self-hatred and suicidal thoughts where he tried to deny or hide his sexual orientation.

He then went on to describe how certain things happened that made him have to face the fact that his parents had found out. He said his dad met him on the porch of their home that night and literally showed us scars where his father had wailed away on him ….telling him…i won't have a faggot for a son!

And he just cried…right there in the classroom and said….you all say this is a sin or else it is a sickness and no one believes that i'm just this way. Yet, i can't see a time where i chose to be this way. To my knowledge i'm not sick and i'm not posessed. i love God…don't think that i'm not a believer.

i found this shook me. it shook so much. he didn't seem to be lying…and the scars were real. And, he loves people like Jesus would. So, you know, i don't get it. i have to believe the bible and yet i see the tears in this man's face and the pain he's endured because people that professed to be Christians tore him to pieces over his sexual orientation.

So, at this point, i'm confused. i do not know what to believe. And, i'm worried that God is mad at me for questioning and for being confused.

All i keep thinking is that….as far as sin goes.

i KNOW that it is sinful to hate someone because they are different. i know that it is sinful to harm another human being. i know that it is a sin to think that i'm better than anyone–no matter what they do in their sexual life.

And, maybe i'm wrong….maybe God is really going to get me and i'll really wish i hadn't questioned him….but i'm not so sure that acceptance, compassion, and someone wishing to care for and be with and love another IS WRONG regaurdless of the sexual orientation.

it just seems too me that there's already too much hatred in circulation.

i don't know…maybe i'm depraved.

Jesus knows the answer. maybe he already told me in the bible and i'm just finding it hard to understand.

Do you think he hates me for that?

Jeffrey October 31st, 2007

I'd like to respond to some of the questions raised by other posts. As a gay Christian and former pastor, I think I may have some useful insights.

First, to kisha: Though others may tell you differently, I cannot conceive of a loving God condeming any of us limited creatures for not understanding everything perfectly, or for doubting what we've been told when the evidence of our own experience puts it in question. That's how human beings learn and grow — by taking what we've received, with all its conflicts, and struggling through to a new point of equilibrium. It is a never-ending and often painful process and, quite frankly, many folk including many otherwise good Christians find it so difficult that they decide not to engage in it — usually tossing out the evidence of their lives in favor of prepackaged "answers" that are more comfortable than growth. You are to be commended for having the courage to question — that's how we grow in understanding and in faith, and it's how we build up enough spiritual toughness to deal with the crises life invariably hands us. God loves us, and made us the way we are, limited and uncertain. You will never be condemned for being human, or for allowing compassion for another human being to lead you into re-examining what you believe, to allow your faith to grow to encompass your new experience.

I would also note that you have seen evidence that all of us — Christian or not — are capable of horrible sin. Your friend's story is far from unique. I once knew a young man who came home from college for a break, having worked up the courage to tell his parents that he had realized that he is gay. His mother wept quietly (not uncommon) while his father silently stood and left the room, returning with a shotgun and a box of shells. Still silently he broke open and loaded the gun, and placed both barrels on his son's breastbone. "Leave," he said, "and don't come back. If I ever see you on my property I'll kill you." Regrettably, ignorance and fear often result in terrible violence, both physical and spiritual, against those we do not understand. Topping that list for many are homosexuals.

On a more general point: John cited Leviticus, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind…" While one could question whether John is as adamant about the wearing of mixed-fiber clothing (also an abomination, per Leviticus), I'll let pass the question of picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we insist upon for others and which we ignore for ourselves and address the central issue: Do homosexuals in fact "lie with mankind as with womankind"?

I was married to a remarkable and gracious woman for 12 years prior to realizing that I needed to come to terms with the reality that I am gay. (We are still close friends. Like I said, a remarkable and gracious woman.) I never broke my marriage vows, with any one of either gender, prior to the end of our marriage. The problem was far deeper than sex: as a gay man, I relate romantically and emotionally with other gay men, rather than with women. As with heterosexual couples, homosexual couples (as opposed to permiscuous members of either orientation) find that sex will strengthen and deepen an already existing emotional and spiritual bond.

My marriage was based on a strong friendship and my sincere desire to be what I thought I was expected to be, and my belief that if I did what was "right" God would support me in it. That didn't happen. What did happen was that I lived in increasing pain and sorrow for years, starting when I had my first crush at age 8. I conformed to what I thought was expected, what I was told God expected, and tried to be someone I was not, to my great regret. Finally, in my late 30s, I had nothing left but pain and loneliness and a gaping hole in the heart of my being where all the good things in life, starting with my ability to love wholeheartedly, were supposed to be.

For years I had asked God to change me; God did not. Then I asked for the strength to change myself; it didn't come. Can you just take away the pain? No. Give me the strength to bear it? No.

Finally, deep in the night, I prayed correctly: not my will but thine. If you won't change me or help me change, or make the pain somehow bearable, will you help me accept that I am gay? YES. I cannot describe the warmth and comfort that came to me as soon as I formed that prayer. It wasn't that I was too far gone for God to hear or help me — I'd been asking the wrong thing. I was as I was, and God did not intend for me to change, but to come to terms with the fact that I am not as I had sought to be.

Life took more twists and turns, as it will. My wife and I chose in time to end our marriage so that we could preserve our friendship. I left my pulpit in accordance with my denomination's requirements — I could stay in silence or live openly, and I would not purchase my license to preach by living a lie. I found new work, and in time a new mate with whom I now share my life.

So, do I lie with mankind as with womankind? No. When I was with my wife, though blessed by the Church and the state, the relationship was based on a lie about who I was. The fact that it was a lie I told myself first and foremost is irrelevant. My relationship now, with a kind and gifted man, is based not. My marriage hurt a good woman who did nothing wrong except fall in love with me; it hurt my family and hers; it hurt my congregation; it hurt me. My new relationship (ten years next month) hurts no one, least of all me, my partner, or our families, who love and support us and rejoice in our happiness. Regardless of the stance of the Church, I know that God, too, loves and supports us; the evidence is there in my renewed spirit, and in the strength of our commitment to each other that grows over time and through both adversity and ease.

For a straight man to enter a romantic relationship with a man is a lie, is bound to result in pain, is sin. For a gay man to enter into a romantic relationship with a woman is equally sinful. The greatest sin in my life was the lie on which I sought to build my first marriage. The least sinful thing I have ever done was falling in love with someone I could love with all my heart, mind, soul and strength. The sin isn't in gender — it's in whether we are or are not true to the person God made.

Daniel November 1st, 2007

Jeffery:
I appriciate your lengthy explination, but homosexuality is a sin regardless of the context. And while God forgives you and loves you, he unfortunately does not support your lifestyle. For a new testemant example: "…Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were" 1 Corinthians 6:8-11

Key word in the last sentence.."were" not "continuing"…
So I must respectfully disagree with your stance on that

MikeMcK November 1st, 2007

Jeffrey, many people here have pointed out to you that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. It's clear that you don't believe that, and I suppose that's up to you.

But my problem is that you say you were a pastor and yet, you don't seem to know some of the most basic doctrines of Christianity.

As a former pastor, would you mind taking just a minute to explain to me what the Bible says is the purpose of marriage?

Tyler November 4th, 2007

Daniel, Corinthians seems to group homosexuals along with the greedy. I seem to know a lot more greedy people in the church than I know gay Christains. Why do we spend more energy on the gay issue than the issue of greed? I don't recall the last sermon where the preacher was condeming the greedy to hell. Isn't being gay no different than being greedy? What Christian claims they are not fallen. Why woud being gay be worse than being greedy? The whole issue is this: We are all fallen. And we all may be recipiants of God's grace. (I am of the opinion that the poeple who criticize the gays almost need a greater measure of grace than the gays. Their intollerance borders on hate.)

greg from canada November 4th, 2007

I find it very interesting that as christians that we seem to categorize sin into severity levels. Telling a "white" lie might be a 1, a bad lie might be a 4, stealing might be a 5, sex before marriage might be a 7. But homosexuality ranks at a 10 for most. Its interesting that we see other peoples sins as severe and that they are unforgivable when we are as sinful as them. Not that I am condoning homosexuality. It is a sin like any other sin that needs to be addressed and worked on. And I do think that groups like the "God hats fags" group does promote hate and are probably as bad as the KKK.

Jeffery, I do agree with Daniel that as long as you continue to practice homosexuality you do continue to sin. However, i do think that if you consider yourself gay but dont actualy practice it you are not sinning. I don't envy you Jeffery, it must be a very though thing to live with. And I pray that you can continue to work with God to help you and that you have others around to support you.

MikeMcK November 5th, 2007

[quote]Daniel, Corinthians seems to group homosexuals along with the greedy. I seem to know a lot more greedy people in the church than I know gay Christains. Why do we spend more energy on the gay issue than the issue of greed?[/quote]

We should address all sin, but the reason homosexuality, specifically, is the big topic these days is that it's the only one that's actually being touted as a virtue.

I mean, when was the last time you saw a "hypocrite pride" parade? Has anybody called you "thief-o-phobic" because you believe that the Bible says that stealing is wrong?

There's always been a trend in Christianity to say, "Well, I may be a sinner facing God's wrath on judgement day, but at least I'm not as bad as that guy"

But, in reality, the Bible says that all sin seperates us from God and all sin makes us enemies of God, and even the smallest transgression is enough to send us to Hell.

Erik November 5th, 2007

Good morning Mike. Hope you had a good weekend.

I feel like that cartoon sheep dog and coyote. All civil, then punch the clock and go at it again. (I'll let the reader decide which one of us is trying to kill the sheep).

So Mike, you admitted last week that you sin while constantly harping on others' sins.

Does your sin make you an enemy of God? Will your small transgressions send you to Hell?

MikeMcK November 5th, 2007

Hi, Eric. The nasty emails you sent me this weekend only made me more determined to pray for you.

I think it's really telling that I didn't even address you, and yet, you took it upon yourself to come and harrass me here.

Nasty, rude emails, stalking, etc. What a great example of Key Life you are.

Daniel November 5th, 2007

Tyler and others:
I agree ALL sin is equally untolerable before God. I also think the things mentioned in corinthians are "lifestyles", and one should not accept any of those lifestyles…I certainly hope I didn't come across as hateful or homophobic, that is not my feeling nor intent,but just as one who is openly "greedy" or "drunk" would be discouraged from those lifestyles, so should one who is homosexual. Yes we should accept them just as Jesus did…"as they are"…but we cannot encourage them to continue in sin, no more than we'd encourage a drunk to go back to the bottle or a greedy person to take advantage of others..
Unfortunately homosexuality is one of those "hot button" issues where more rhetoric than rational thought is presented, and more harm is usually done than help, so with that, I'll continue to "love the sinner and hate my own sin"…

Erik November 5th, 2007

Aw man, now you're gonna make me post the emails for all to see.

The first one was in response to an email Mike sent to Steve complaining about me and quoting one of my replies to him.

—–Original Message—–
From: Erik
To: Mike
Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 9:48 am
Subject: RE: Hi, Steve — Steve Brown Etc. contact form

Tattletale. I'll be sure to pass your comments along to Steve.

Don't even pretend that you're not enjoying this as much as I am.

e.

[Mike responded]

From: Erik
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:12 AM
To: Mike
Subject: RE: Hi, Steve — Steve Brown Etc. contact form

You are baiting arguments on purpose on his website, so don't even pretend you respect Steve. You're not sad about the exchange, you're a manipulator.

Steve does not take a frivolous attitude toward sin. You ignore that fact and keep posting because you like the attention you get from stirring things up.

Either the above is true, or you are totally blind to how self-righteous you are. Either way, I'm not going to let either go unchallenged on the site I maintain.

e.

From: Erik
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:56 AM
To: Mike
Subject: RE: Hi, Steve — Steve Brown Etc. contact form

And by the way, I was serious when I said I love you as a member of the body of Christ. I think you're mean and blind to how messed up you are and the damage you're doing to the body of Christ by being that way. I don't like that, but I fully expect to spend eternity with you and look forward to it.

And yes, I'm a jerk too. Isn't it great that God's grace is bigger than our sin! The more I focus on His love for me, the less of a jerk I am. If you think I've been snotty with you today, you should have seen me before God loved me so well. I really am getting better. That's the result of grace, not a focus on sin.

Erik November 5th, 2007

And thanks for your prayers.

jefe November 5th, 2007

Jeez erik… you're so unreasonable.

Stalker!

Erik November 5th, 2007

I'm going to adopt that as my new moniker, Stalker Eric.

greg from canada November 5th, 2007

How about "the merry stalker of love"…. mmmm… maybe not

Zeke November 5th, 2007

I tend to think of gays as the canaries in the coal mine of evangelicals' dark side. This issue always brings out our very worst fears and insecurities.

For instance, the blogger Andrew Sullivan recently asked a very telling question of Republican males (of whom evangelicals are a significant percentage): Would you have sex with a man to prevent a terrorist attack?

The context here is that one may be prepared to kill or even torture innocent people to save us from a terrorist attack (as we have proven very willing to do)… but would you commit a homosexual act to stop one? An absurd potentiality of course, but it's challenging in the right way I think.

Erik November 7th, 2007

Pitching or catching?

susan November 9th, 2007

I am confused as to how I should react. If we are to forgive those we feel are living in sin, Gays and lesbians, how can we not judge their sinfulness? I am curious because I have a friend whose sister is Gay and flaunts it like it is a new coat; and yet my friend laughs off her sisters lifestyle as she calls it and makes fun of her, and makes everyone else feel repugnant and acts as if shes not bothered by it but she is. My friend sister is gay and she makes everyone feel uncomfortable talking about her sisters lifestyle (Lesbian). I feel in time GOD will work things out in all their lives and change their live. But comparing the one sin of gossip with another, homosexuality; and down casting one when they all are sinning, makes me uncomfortable being around those so called friends, and they ahev a picnic talking about their own siblings. Makes me feel as if I have to be on guard
and I have cut off that relationship because of it. For the oen sister was making me feel very uncomfortable because of her "starting" to talk about her sibling, and putting me n the middle of her two sisters, and not wanting to dwell on how they were "making out' and their lifves and how they were living; hearing them talk of it all the time, made me question their motivations. I felt it was a battle of who was going to put this lifestyle down first. And alway saying shes so and and making fun of her. I did not think it was right to even talk about her. as if she was the devil herself. And I dont feel it is my job to condemn her. But what I do feel is the sister who goes around and tells others about her sisters sinfulness is just as sinful. Am I wrong to not feel that it is NOT my job to tell her that? I dont think I should be condemning anyone. Am I wrong to not say it is sin? I am truly confused for I know it is sin, but do I have to condemn it just becasue it is? I dont feel it is my job to condemn anyone. I stopped talking to this friend because she and her younger sister have laid their guilt of their feelings on me and that is what I dont understand. Why are they making me feel guilty for her sister's sin's? They brought it up and then say I did, but I did not even know she was GAY until they brought it up. I would like to be able to clarify what sin is, but without making my friend seem as if she has to defend her sisters sinfulness by making it my own. For I dont have any homosexual tendancies yet, I wish I had a friend that was that loving to care enough to show their love as ehr sister does. For she is not afraid to show her love. I feel the one sister was being selfish in making me feel guilty for even talking about it, but she brought the conversation up, and I just said I do not condemn anyone, for we all sin. And I wanted to say it is sin, but so was talking about her sister when she was not even there to defend herself. She was even sinning talking about her sister when her sister was not even present. I felt she was on an ego trip and wanted to puff up her own rightsouness over her own sisters sinfulness. I just ended the conversation with I do not get involved. Was I wrong to end the conversation? For I felt I am not to be the one to judge anyone; for we all sin and fall short of the glory of GOD and I did not want to discuss what I was not prepared to. So how can you not talk about something as "sensnitive" as such sinfulness when we all do sin? How can one be preapred to deal with such a topic? For I am sure we have no understanding of what love is let alone what is lustfulness which is sin. But is not gossip just as bad a sinful act as lust? It was because of this very conversation I did not want to have any more contact with this friend.For I felt it just created tension in the relationship. I was not about to continue a conversation that I felt was justa s sinful as her sisters homosexuality. I felt it was best to walk away than to entertain the conversation. Because it soon became a blame game and I did not want to play. so tell me how can one talk about such things and still give God the glory? How do you condemn sin if your still living in sin? Just because one is viewed with less enthusiasm, why should we just condemn the homosexual? Is not gossip just as sinful? You cant measure love but I feel you sure can emasure sinfulness.ist all around us…even Christians sin, so why are they pointing the finger just at the obvious sinfulness?

susan November 9th, 2007

I pray all Homosexuals and sinners come to Christ eventually. In Yeshua's name

George November 9th, 2007

Susan,

God judges sin. Not us. We are to love the sinner, but not the sin.

Jesus is the issue. For a non-Christian they have to answer two basic questions. Who is Jesus? And what is my relationship with Him?

After that, it is God's job to convict us, change us and to make us his people. We are to encourage one another and help our brothers and sisters see if they are in sin, but God is the one who convicts and changes.

We are all sinners. Galatians is great to read. But look at Galatians 5:19-21 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like."

If we are to single out gays, we must in good conscience also focus on those who hate, or are selfish or are envious.

If being with them makes you stumble in your walk with the Lord, then I would suggest you voice your love for your friend and suggest that you not spend as much time together.

I'm not an expert. Hope this helps.

Daniel November 9th, 2007

My bible says love the sinner and hate my own sin…

Keith November 20th, 2007

I think it's interesting that alot of people mentioned the inconsistency of singling out homosexuality among the other things listed in Galatians. I think somehow we have relegated much of the list to "my own business" and items like homosexuality to be sins of another for all of us to discuss and pass judgement on (which by the way Daniel, I like the way you put it above). If the answer is that some are personal sins, not involving an acting out that directly affects others…well that's just not true. Even envy can be cancerous in families and relationships with very direct felt impact. Also, where greed is concerned, someone mentioned that it might be different if there were people who were openly embracing a lifestyle of greediness or selfishness while claiming to be Christians. Aren't there boatloads of Christians who do this though? Why are we so free to call homosexual Christians to account for a sin that they absolve themselves of, but behave as if it would some how be uncouth to reproof a Christian salesman who is bragging to a fellow churchgoer in the narthex (I love that crazy word!) after a service about how much he managed to make on a deal…or politicians (Republicans and Democrats alike…but mostly you know who ha ha) who trumpet their faith to the four corners but consistently pass legislation that defends the wealthy and ignores or harms the poor in the name of fiscal responsibility? Isn't this more than just a little inconsistent? If we were so concerned about the splinter in every other brother and sister's eyes, then we had best make a full time career of locating and pointing out everyone's sins. Or…we could do as Jesus says and work on our own vision wrecking 2 by 4.

Patrick Burwell November 20th, 2007

"If we were so concerned about the splinter in every other brother and sister's eyes, then we had best make a full time career of locating and pointing out everyone's sins. Or…we could do as Jesus says and work on our own vision wrecking"

There's only one problem with that statement, Jesus never said any such thing.
See, Jesus made it really clear to Judge… wisely. Never once did He say we should not judge at all. The "wisely" part comes in knowing what Standard you measure yourself against and others along the way.
Begin with your self and in knowing you always fall short then you can graciously show the same Standard to another and set them free as they enter the Sabbath rest that is Jesus, the Mercy of God from the Letter of the Law.
And, btw, to not want to see a man bound up in the deviance called homosexuality delivered is sin in itself. Should you tell a sinner they are a sinner? ABSOLUTELY!
Show the the Law that they may see themselves as God sees them, not as you do, and when they are humbled show them the Mercy of God in the sacrifice of His Son. But don;t let's be sol silly as to think we shouldn't mention their sin because it's politically incorrect to "judge" them, lest you let others run off the cliff with them. Sure you may not get through at first put you can surely plant the Truth in them the Spirit of God can nurture to salvation!

Don't be afraid to call a lie for what it is because some say it is truth.

Erik November 20th, 2007

Patrick,

Do you really believe there are any homosexuals at this point that aren't fully aware that Christians think they are living in sin? I can't imagine that being news to anyone.

On the contrary, I believe we have done an exceptional and efficient job of informing people that they are sinners (as a set up to the gospel of course). That message has been preached loud and clear.

When we get just as ambitious about the message of grace…maybe then people will need to be reminded about what they're saved from. But we ain't there yet. Just getting started.

dorsey November 21st, 2007

Patrick,

"Jesus never said any such thing. See, Jesus made it really clear to Judge… wisely. Never once did He say we should not judge at all."

Where do you get this idea?

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged." (Matt 7:1).

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

"Don't be afraid to call a lie for what it is because some say it is truth."

Thanks for the tip.

G-Rock November 21st, 2007

debates like this make me wanna become an atheist, or a buddhist…

you don't hear them debate about these things that often…

there's no fundamentalist or emergent buddhist, or charismatic atheist (unless your elton john)…

in the wise words of relient k:

"Christians– we're all afraid of fire.
We prefer to suck on pacifiers.
Baby pacifists, we're throwing fits.
We don't shake hands, we shake our fists.

We're cannibals.
We watch our brothers fall.
We eat our own, the bones and all.

Finally fell asleep on the plane
to wake to see we're going down in flames.

We're going down, down, down in flames.
We're gonna drown, drown, drown insane.

We see the problem and the risk,
but nothing's solved.
We just say, "Tisk, tisk, tisk,"
and, "Shame, shame, shame."

Finally fell asleep on the plane
to wake to see we're going down in flames.

Let's go!

Christians– we mourn, the thorn is stuck
in the side of the body watch it self-destruct.
The enemy is much ignored
when we fight this Christian civil war.

We're cannibals.
We watch our brothers fall.
We eat our own, the bones and all.

Finally fell asleep on the plane
to wake to see we're going down in flames.

We're going down, down, down in flames.
We're gonna drown, drown, drown insane."

Charles November 21st, 2007

Steve nailed it way up above.

Sin is sin, whether it is homosexuality or self-righteousness towards homosexuality, getting fat, mean, drunk, super annoying, etc. WIthout God's grace and forgiveness in Christ, these things are all compulsory MetroCards to everlasting contempt. And that train is crammed full of 'self-righteous' commuters. Some of them may be gay, fat, mean or annoying…all rejected forgiveness because they either didn't think they needed it or couldn't believe it was true or both.

Why do we want to make homosexuality so much worse? Because it scares us. Our safe little world may crumble from decay….not realizing our own contribution to the decay.

I say, bring in the decay! Let it all rip! Augustine said bye-bye to Rome and barring Jesus returing, alot of believers are going to have to say the same for western civ. Everything shakes except the unshakable until that is all that is left so we can see the Unshakable better.

I am going to make it a spiritual discipline to not micro manage any homosexual I meet. I may not like their lifestyle, but making it my goal to make them as mean as me has been -1,000% effective so far. Maybe I should stop being their Mother, start being their friend and pray they know Him better than I do, rather than change their mind about sex….and leave the rest to Him.

That's not lowering the bar. That's recognizing the bar, bowing to it and realizing it ain't me.

Patrick Burwell November 25th, 2007

I'll let my friend Brandon Howse answer you Dorsey. No point in chewing the cud twice:
———————————–
Please don't quote the verse "judge not lest you be judged" unless you use it correctly. Most people don't use it correctly. The Bible calls for us to judge the teachings, actions, doctrine and fruit of a person's life. The Bible only warns against passing judgment on their soul. For a correct understanding of this verse as well as Matthew 18, which many quote incorrectly, please read these articles:

Understanding the meaning of "judge not lest you be judged"
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php?&ArticleID=151

The correct use of Matthew 18
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php?&ArticleID=552
———————————–
Erik,
Barna polls, among with other such reliable sources of information as the empirical evidence gleaned by D. James Kennedy and the Billy Graham Association about their own crusade results, not only show we have done a LOUSY job of Biblically sharing our faith by explaining sin first to make Grace amazing, but these polls, and empirical evidence I have gleaned personally from hundreds of interviews conducted by me over the last two years, also clearly indicate we have a huge percentage of pew warmers professing christianity but are not Christians, as the Bible defines them. The evidence shows an alarming 90% of professing christianity in the USA are false converts who came to Jesus for what they could get (life enhancement) not out of a gratitude borne from a humble submission to Jesus in repentance for their sin.
For a better understanding of this listen or watch http://hellsbestkeptsecret.com and then click on "True and False Conversion" to watch or hear that.

Or take the good person test yourself and see if you arent one of those people yourself… as I found I was…
http://onlyjesussaves.com/good

Then seek the lost while you still can.
Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

dorsey November 26th, 2007

"The Bible only warns against passing judgment on their soul."

Patrick, I agree that neither you nor I can ascertain the condition of a soul.

"The evidence shows an alarming 90% of professing christianity in the USA are false converts who came to Jesus for what they could get (life enhancement) not out of a gratitude borne from a humble submission to Jesus in repentance for their sin."

So what the heck was that, if not judging their souls? Do you have any other friends who can explain it to me?

Ellen November 26th, 2007

Just found out about Steve's ETC. and have been reading this section on Homosexuality. I've been acquainted with Steve's ministry [keylife] for many years. Met him in California [Fair Oaks] twice. Even have a photo of us together.

Gave my life to Jesus in 1976. Around 2003, I had to come to the realization I was Gay [Lesbian]. Fought it all my life. I have so much to say but will try and keep it as brief as possible.

Believe me, I struggled with my discovery. I'm thankful for the Net because I needed to search for the REAL truth. Many of you will say I'm living in sin. I went to evangelical / pentecostal / fundamentalist / and assembly of God churches since 1976 but when I realized I AM a Lesbian, well . . . . you know I would NOT be accepted at ANY of those churches. Funny, if Jesus was the pastor of ANY of those churches, I KNOW He would NOT have turned me away, yet ANY of the residing pastors, if I had confess my gender preference, I can guarantee those pastors AND congregation members would have found a [appropriate] way to throw me out. How ironic: Jesus would let me stay, but YOU, when you found out WHO I was find a way to "get rid of me." I mean what kind of influence would I have on the children!!

I found a UCC in Auburn CA where I lived at the time that accepted me for who I was AND LOVED JESUS too!! Couldn't ask for more!
I now live in WA and go to a Unitarian Universalist church. They have different views of Jesus BUT they accept me AND my female partner.

But in my search back in CA., I found that the Bible has been more mis-translated then mis-interpreted. Let me explain: As we know, there are several translations of the Bible: NASB [my fav], NIV, KJV & NKJ, etc..
BUT . . . . .
Many words from the Hebrew and the Greek were not translated properly. I'm no scholar of these languages and trust other experts as we all do. I found the following links VERY helpful in enlightening my research:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblnt.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblot.htm

http://www.whosoever.org/editorial/editorial.html

Steps to Recovery from Bible Abuse (Paperback)
by Rembert S. Truluck (Author)

Also too, at the Nicene Counsel, the books to be included in the Bible were chosen. Remember, these are men just like you and me, with human frailties, limitations, preferences etc.. I know the scripture that the word is "God Breathed" but like I said, the books were chosen: on what criteria [just a rhetorical question ~ no need to answer]. Certain books were NOT chosen, again based on a "certain" criteria. That criteria was "created" FROM the minds of humans and we KNOW we are NOT perfect, which is what "sin" means. I even heard Steve [and believe me, I love & respect him] say that the definition of sins is that we "fall short of the mark of perfection which is God."

From my research, I KNOW I am NOT living in sin living with and loving another woman. AND I KNOW Jesus LOVES me just as I am [well, yes, we are transformed daily as the word says].

I know from more research that many evangelicals are turning to the "Gospel of Inclusion" as it is called [those who accept the GLBT folks in their churches]. One being Carlton Pearson. I used to listen to his ministry on TV and then heard his story on NPR about his "epiphany" and transformation to acceptance of GLBT folks as "saved" just like any Christian who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior. There are more. But his story is much like others who accept us as saved from the blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Look, I want to keep this dialogue going. I've read almost the entire blog and know there will be many of you still referring to me as living in sin. Believe me, I struggled with this enough and know I'm saved: that Jesus is my Lord & Savior and that He loves me JUST as I am.

Please peruse the web references above and "google" "Rembert Truluck" he has much to say that is VERY insightful.

Ellen

Patrick Burwell November 26th, 2007

"From my research, I KNOW I am NOT living in sin living with and loving another woman. AND I KNOW Jesus LOVES me just as I am [well, yes, we are transformed daily as the word says]. "

Ellen,
It is clearly written in the Bible that such actions is judged by God to be sin. No amount of self deprecation on my part will make your sin any less a violation of God's Law. And, just like me, you must surrender ALL to Jesus, not just what you want to.
I had to give up on marrying a young lady I dearly loved in repentance over my sin with her that I could recieve His Sacrifice and be made clean. I never got to marry her after that. It was a price I had to pay for my submission to His will. And so you must also determine what is more important, Ellen.
Is your emotion and your desire more important than what God says? If you look hard enough and run to enough people you WILL eventually find someone who will tickle your ears with the lies you so desperately want to hear just to stop the itching that comes from the reality bugging you, for you know in your conscience what is true.
Ellen, we must all come to the end of ourselves. That is the point.
Either you do so here in this life and be rescued by your utter faith in Jesus, accepting that His ways are always right, or, the Bible promises you shall spend an eternity in Hell with only your self, knowing He is right.

I pray you will submit to His will for you.

Take the Good Person Test, at http://thegoodpersontest.com, and see that your sins of sexual misconduct are not the only violations that make you worthy of your punishment of Hell, but your lieing also; and your stealing; and your covetousness; and your idolatry.

Wait, did I say idolatry? Yes, i d o l a t r y.
See, Ellen, you have violated the Second Commandment right here in this forum by making a god up in your own mind; a god that will overlook your sin and not send you to the Hell you deserve, just like the rest of us.
Your god is not REAL ellen, You have made an idol you can be comfortable in your sins with. And your god has not given his own son to save you either.
What you see now, Ellen, as condemnation is really a pleading to see you surrender and Be Free If You Want To Be. Freed from your depraved mind, just like I have been; Freed from your fears of impending judgement; Freed from your terror of God's anger, which you know is hanging over your head like an axe waiting to fall.
God wants to save you Ellen but you must turn from ALL your sins and submit your ways to Jesus. If He is not in CONTROL of your life then you are not His.
There is no other way, Ellen. Only Jesus Saves.
I pray you hear the Truth. Because no amount of denial will change the fact of what Jesus has said, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way." (Luke 13:3 -WEB -http://onlyjesussaves.com/web/Luke.htm#C13V3)

Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

Ellen November 27th, 2007

[Oy Vey] Patrick,
Was anticipating just such a reply. Let me state more specifics from the research I've done. Can you at least have an open enough mind to investigate what I'm going to tell you? I remember Paul stating that the Bereans searched the scriptures day and night to see if what he told them was true. All I ask is that you search the research to see if what I say is true.

1. First of all, the word "homosexuality" [and derivatives] didn't come into existence until 1860. BTW, King James was bisexual though he had nothing to do with writing the KJV Bible. Just a BTW.

2. The Sodom & Gommorah situation had NOTHING to do sexuality/sexual orientation. Firstly, a Sodomite was a person who LIVED in Sodom, like any-town-USA, if you live in a town, you are a ******ite. I lived in Auburn CA and was an "AuburnITE."
Genesis 19:5:
"Bring them out to us that we may know them." "Know" simply means know! No hint at homosexuality exists in the original Hebrew. No later Bible references to Sodom ever mention homosexuality as the sin of Sodom. Many modern translations add words to the text to create the lie that the people of Sodom were homosexual.
No Jewish scholars before the first Christian century taught that the sin of Sodom was sexual. None of the biblical references to Sodom mention sexual sins but view Sodom as an example of injustice, and lack of hospitality to strangers.

3. Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."
Both of these verses refer NOT to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks.

The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the Levitical laws. Leviticus 11:1-12 states all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others. Many other "health" restrictions are stated because of the "times." Today, people eat ALL those "forbidden" foods, wear forbidden clothe, have sex the wrong time of the month, and what parent today would stone their own child [after throwing them into a pre-dug pit] for committing "any" sin! There are many other Levitical laws we do NOT uphold today. Why is that I wonder? We all saw Jesus break some Levitical laws: healing [the Phareses looked at it as "work"] on the Sabbath. Hey, David eating the "showbread." And more, we all know God's word!

4. Romans 1:26-27:
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions: for their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against nature. And in the same way also the men abandoned the natural use of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error."
All of this refers to idolatrous religious practices that were common in the time of Paul.

Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, etc..
Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said. As 2 Peter 3:16-18 pointed out, we have to be on guard against using Paul's writings in unhealthy and destructive ways.

5. [In other NT scriptures]
"Soft" does not mean "effeminate." The word translated "effeminate in 1 Corinthians 6:9 is Greek malakoi and means "soft" or "vulnerable." The word is translated as "soft" in reference to clothing in Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 and as "illness" in Matthew 4:23 and 9:35. It is not used anywhere else in the New Testament and carries no hint of reference to sexual orientation. Malakoi in 1 Corinthians 6:9 probably refers those who are "soft," "pliable," "unreliable," or "without courage or stability." The translation of malakoi as "effeminate" is incorrect, ignorant, degrading to women, and impossible to justify based on ancient usage compared to the meaning of "effeminate" today.

This incorrect rendering of malakoi and arsenokoites as references to gender orientation has been disastrous for millions of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual people. This mistaken translation has enlisted religious fanatics against homosexual people and has turned many Lesbians and Gays against the Bible, which holds for them as for ALL people the good news of God's love in Christ.

Hey, I could go on, but I ask ALL of you to please refer to the links in my previous entry and investigate for yourselves. See if MAYBE what I am referring to could possibly be true. Can we think outside our prejudice boxes for once!?
Good Grief! Slavery in Paul's time was condoned. [Philemon]. Just simply consider the times, it was part of their culture. We don't uphold certain Levitical laws but USE other Levitical laws to condemn. How sad.
Patrick, I still KNOW I'm saved by HIS blood . You haven't told me anything new or that I haven't heard already. However, I have presented you with some criteria that deserves at least some investigation on your part. I know my Bible. Some of the info I have quoted here comes from someone who has memorized several books of the Bible INCLUDING Romans and has studied the Bible with diligence [as Paul instructs us to do]. Another BTW, Hank Hanegraaff, probably 25 years ago memorized Revelation. What a feat!!
I say all this in kindness and don't mean any negative feelings toward you or anyone who "disapproves" of my life style.

Ellen

Patrick Burwell November 27th, 2007

Ellen, What you "know" is that the Bible is true. What you are doing, however, with the Bible is called Eisegesis (and idolatry).
Eisegesis is cramming your meaning into what you read instead of reading hermeneutically. (And the idolatry part, as I explained before, is making God into what you want Him to be not who He is.)
Ellen, simply put, you are a sinner. And, unless you repent and trust Jesus to save you, letting Christ change your heart in the process, you will be one of those that cry "Lord, Lord" on Judgement Day. And Jesus will tell you He doesn't know you then because He doesn't know you now.
How do I know this about you? Your "apple" tree has lemons,
You cannot continue to actively engage in what the Bible calls sin and still claim to be a Christian.
I played that game for years until I learned the truth. Only THEN, when I surrendured what I thought and wanted and believed was right and trusted in what the Bible said, only then did I have truth, see my sin for what it was and agree with God what must be done.
You know homosexuality, adultery and any sex outside of marriage is sin. The Biblical definition of marriage is a covenant union between a man and a woman.
Try all you want to make it anything else and you will only be lieing to yourself.

May you come to the end of yourself and your own "knowledge" and see the Truth. There is no other way.

Patrick Burwell
OnlyJesusSaves.com

Zeke November 28th, 2007

Never heard that one before, Patrick.

Christov November 28th, 2007

Maybe Ellen's relying upon the finished work of Christ, and nothing else, for her salvation. What then?

Mark November 28th, 2007

Hi Patrick -

I'm trying to understand your point of view. You said:

"You cannot continue to actively engage in what the Bible calls sin and still claim to be a Christian."

Can you explain this a little further?

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

So, Ellen, how are we to reconcile what you say with what the Bible says (ie. that homosexuality is a sin and that those who continue on in a lifestyle of deliberate, unrepentant sin are not born again)?

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

So, Ellen, how are we to reconcile what you say with what the Bible says (ie. that homosexuality is a sin and that those who continue on in a lifestyle of deliberate, unrepentant sin are not born again)?

[Amended to invite the usual suspects to begin their inevitable round of name calling and false accusations]

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]Maybe Ellen's relying upon the finished work of Christ, and nothing else, for her salvation. What then?[/quote]

Unless she just grossly misunderstands what it means to be born again, how can she refuse to repent of her sin but then say that she's relying on the "finished work of Christ"?

Is this some kind of Universalism you're suggesting? Or is it (most likely) the fruition of the "go ahead and sin" mentality of KeyLife?

You may now feel free to begin calling me names and making false accusations against me.

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]You cannot continue to actively engage in what the Bible calls sin and still claim to be a Christian.[/quote]

I agree. That's exactly what the Bible says.

Ellen November 28th, 2007

Have any of you AT LEAST checked out the references in my above posts:??
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblnt.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombiblot.htm

http://www.whosoever.org/editorial/editorial.html

Steps to Recovery from Bible Abuse (Paperback)
by Rembert S. Truluck (Author)

I at least, have read my Bible [many times over] and I do trust those who are more scholarly then I. Especially those who are accredited. Are any of you here scholars of Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic languages? If so, what are your credentials?

Like I've said, I've heard ALL your arguments before, nothing new. All I ask is if you check out the above references and come back with a NEW debate.
Folks like Carlton Pearson and churches like the United Church of Christ didn't come to the same conclusions as I did [re: Gospel of Inclusion] without first investigating how and if it is true. Let's hear a NEW debate, please!!

Ellen

Erik November 28th, 2007

I don't know if you're gonna get any kind of debate Ellen (new or old). Most likely you'll just get an argument.

Christov November 28th, 2007

Hey, MikeMcK,

What I'm saying is simply this: If you're trusting in the salvific efficacy of your own repentence, the salvific efficacy (as if it had any real depth in relation to the finished work of Christ - or as if a right understanding of same were a prerequisite for salvation) of your own understanding, then you are condemned.

What was it that Luther or some other reformer said - something like, "All man brings (to the transaction, if transaction it is, that results in man's salvation) is resistance and sin."

I've read the arguments Ellen brings to this discussion of the sinfulness or rightness of homosexual activity, and don't find them compelling. On the other hand, the value of an activity is not essential.

What is essential is whether God is able to save without non-Christ human aid. I'll go on record here as saying the man Christ Jesus is fully human and fully God.

BTW, Ellen didn't say she was relying solely upon the finished work of Christ, I suggested she may be, and if she is, what then? I think Ellen's clear that she doesn't want to sin or mock God or his word, she's evidently (and Ellen, correct me if I'm wrong) seeking to develop an understanding of God's word, of God, that includes the human affections and relationships she values and to which she clings. Her understanding of God is not my understanding of God, but I think God is capable of sorting us both out.

So I guess what I'd like you to answer is what does it mean to be born again? Is there a process, a series of steps from dead in sin to alive in Christ? Describe the process. Can it happen without proper theological understanding? Can it happen without a both blanket-and-every-specific repentance?

Daniel November 28th, 2007

To be saved is to accept Christ as Lord, after that you cultivate a relationship. There isn't anything else to it, other than what man has added.

Ellen, I did read those sites and I found them lack-luster. They don't really support your case, they just make it a little ambiguous.

You should speak with SB, maybe he can get you in touch with someone from Harvest USA, they do a lot of work in the homosexual, (and sexuality in general), arena. They may understand where you are and how you feel more than someone who isn't in your shoes.(Like most of us here).

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]Have any of you AT LEAST checked out the references in my above posts:??[/quote]

Honestly? No. If the Bible says that it's wrong, then why do we need to read websites that are just going to tell us that the Bible is wrong?

[quote]I at least, have read my Bible [many times over] and I do trust those who are more scholarly then I.[/quote]

Even if they show you that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin and those who continue on in sin are not born again?

[quote]Are any of you here scholars of Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic languages?[/quote]

Somewhat. I'll admit my knowledge of Hebrew isn't perfect, but I have a good working knowledge of it. My Greek is much better.

[quote]If so, what are your credentials?[/quote]

I studied under a team of good and Godly men for several years. I apprenticed preaching and theology under them. I've taken several courses through SEBTS and am currently enrolled in a local Bible college that has a fine regional reputation.

I am currently an elder at a local Baptist church and have been on the ministry team of this church and my previous church for a total of just over ten years.

[quote]Folks like Carlton Pearson and churches like the United Church of Christ didn't come to the same conclusions as I did [re: Gospel of Inclusion] without first investigating how and if it is true. Let's hear a NEW debate, please!![/quote]

In all fairness, even before Pearson came up with his unbiblical doctrines about homosexuality, he was the center of controversy when his colleagues, (including Christian lounge singer, Carman, who had considered Pearson a mentor) abandoned him because of various heretical teachings. So I don't know if Carlton Pearson is really somebody you want to hitch your wagon to.

MikeMcK November 28th, 2007

[quote]If you're trusting in the salvific efficacy of your own repentence, the salvific efficacy of your own understanding, then you are condemned. [/quote]

Repentance doesn't save, but it is required for salvation.

[quote]I think Ellen's clear that she doesn't want to sin or mock God or his word, she's evidently seeking to develop an understanding of God's word[/quote]

I don't sense that. It looks like she's already made her mind up and isn't really interested in seeking to develop anything, except to shore up her own defense of her behavior.

[quote]Her understanding of God is not my understanding of God, but I think God is capable of sorting us both out.[/quote]

But is it a Biblical understanding of God?

[quote]So I guess what I'd like you to answer is what does it mean to be born again?[/quote]

To be dead to sin and raised to new life in Christ.

[quote]Is there a process, a series of steps from dead in sin to alive in Christ?[/quote]

Repentance and faith in Christ's atonement on the cross on our behalf.

[quote]Can it happen without proper theological understanding?[/quote]

In theory, yes.

We're not saved by doctrine, but our doctrine will determine whether or not we're putting our faith in the Jesus that saves, or a Jesus of our own making, and whether or not we understand what God requires of us to be saved.

Erik November 28th, 2007

MikeMcK,

Do you believe God requires us to stop sinning to be saved?

Charles November 30th, 2007

I wouldn't dare call Ellen's salvation into question because she chooses a lifestyle I don't agree with.

I probably have a life style God doesn't agree with either. On some level, we all do…no sense picking on one over the rest.

But here is my deal….the gay lifestyle seems to be the single defining point for those who support it. It would seem very strange for me to introduce myself to an audience as a prominent heterosexual. It would be weird to do that. So why use sexuality as the key definition of who I am?

I think it boils down to what is your fulcrum for life. If it is anything other than leaning on and following Christ, then the fulcrum is off. That could be sexual preference or over eating. When it isn't Christ, then what we choose to define ourself becomes what we want out of every aspect of life. Forget gay….just look at politics. Someone who considers conservative values as the fulcrum defining their essence make sure there is only conservative friends, churches, television, underwear, etc. No different than the gay community….placing something other than Christ where only He belongs. We are defined by Him, whether we admit it or not. We can learn that the hard way or the easy way, but we will learn….and if it goes hard (and it does for me) it is not His fault.

MikeMcK November 30th, 2007

[quote]I wouldn't dare call Ellen's salvation into question because she chooses a lifestyle I don't agree with.[/quote]

What do 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 say?

Erik November 30th, 2007

2 Corinthians 13:12 "Greet one another with a holy kiss."

Maybe some believers just take that scripture very seriously.

Daniel November 30th, 2007

Excellent points Charles!

Charles November 30th, 2007

Good points Mike, but….

1 John 1:8

How do you suppose we reconcile those verses by the same author, in the same letter?

Anyone who no longer 'continues in sin' as you interpret it, would fall guilty of those who claim to be without sin and do not have the truth in them.

Study that some. That and 1 John 3:11-15.

MikeMcK November 30th, 2007

[quote]Good points Mike, but….

1 John 1:8

How do you suppose we reconcile those verses by the same author, in the same letter?

Anyone who no longer 'continues in sin' as you interpret it, would fall guilty of those who claim to be without sin and do not have the truth in them.

Study that some. That and 1 John 3:11-15.[/quote]

Two different things. Everybody sins, even those who are born again. The difference is that there is a world of difference between those who sin in the course of a lifestyle of willful disobedience and unrepentance, and those who are born again, who have repented of their sins, but sin as a matter of a moral lapse.

The passage I cited talks about those who continue not only to sin, but to [i]serve[/i] sin. They serve the flesh.

The one you're citing is reassuring those who are born again, who serve God, but who still find themselves battling sin because their flesh still carries the echos of the carnal man.

At the very least, the Bible says, there should be a war in a Christian's members. That is, when we sin, there should be something in us that screams to stop. There should be the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

This person is, evidently, not waging this war, but is actually bragging about her sin and standing behind it.

Charles November 30th, 2007

Can a believer in Christ truly be a believer without ever repenting of contempt for a family member, distrust of God with a rebellious child or job, selfishness in the workplace, masterbating to internet porn when left alone in the house, etc?

What about severed relationships where both parties love Jesus but absolutely refuse to reconcile or live in peace with one another, even though they are clearly commanded to do so? Are they really saved?

According to the same letter, based on your interpretation, they are not saved but are lost.

You can't single out one sin and make it scripturally unpardonable without casting yourself into hell too, whether you do that the Arminian way or the Reformed way. Hating Rick Warren or John MacArthur (even though we would never admit it) is as much a sin as sexually cohabitating with the same gender.

You could consider another interpretation….that what John is talking about is living with a love for sin without any spiritual misery in that love at all.

You have no idea who those people really are, because no one knows another person's heart like they know their own.

So John isn't writing this information about other people, like 'homosexuals' or 'drug addicts'. He is writing that about me (and you) as encouragement and a confidence builder. Are we truly saved? Am I truly saved? Even though I won't admit to it right now (or maybe ever), even though I live in contempt towards another and refuse to repent, I am miserable over it and realize that is all I can expect unless I can nail it to the cross….but even if I don't, the situation is not good and I can actually rejoice in the confidence that even though I am stubborn, I belong to Him.

But then again….maybe the entire Gospel is about managing our sin and everyone elses. If so, then maybe I should check into Buddhism

MikeMcK November 30th, 2007

[quote]Can a believer in Christ truly be a believer without ever repenting of contempt for a family member, distrust of God with a rebellious child or job, selfishness in the workplace, masterbating to internet porn when left alone in the house, etc?

What about severed relationships where both parties love Jesus but absolutely refuse to reconcile or live in peace with one another, even though they are clearly commanded to do so? Are they really saved?

According to the same letter, based on your interpretation, they are not saved but are lost.[/quote]

Yeah, if they don't repent, but continue to choose to serve sin over Christ, they're lost. That's not what I say, that's what God says.

Christov November 30th, 2007

So we can lose our salvation?

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

No. Not according to the Bible.

Zeke December 1st, 2007

Yeah, if they don't repent, but continue to choose to serve sin over Christ, they're lost. That's not what I say, that's what God says.

Ever put any thought to the sin that you serve, MikeMcK? You may rejoice that God didn't make you like those wretched homosexuals, but you are consistently unpleasant to experience here on these boards. That show up anywhere else for you?

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

[quote]Ever put any thought to the sin that you serve, MikeMcK?[/quote]

I don't believe I do serve sin. If you do, then why don't you, in the loving and humble manner that the Bible tells us to, tell me what it is?

[quote] You may rejoice that God didn't make you like those wretched homosexuals[/quote]

You might think that homosexuals are "wretched", and they are, but here's something that might come as a shock to you: so are you!

Everyone of us is wretched before God, apart from the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account. You need to remember that next time you look down your nose at homosexuals.

As for me, I can relate to the homosexual because I'm in the same boat (er, sort of). I may not be attracted to the same sex, like they are, but I have no less a responsibility to bring my sexuality and my sexual behavior under submission to Christ.

They've fornicated. I've fornicated. They've committed adultery, I've committed adultery. So, I can't sit back and judge them by any harsher standard than I would be willing to be judged by, myself.

Neither can you. Next time you're tempted to look down your nose at the homosexual and call him "wretched", remember that God has not called you to remind him of his wretchedness, but of Christ's righteousness.

[quote]but you are consistently unpleasant to experience here on these boards.[/quote]

As are you.

That show up anywhere else for you?

Zeke December 1st, 2007

Neither can you. Next time you're tempted to look down your nose at the homosexual and call him "wretched", remember that God has not called you to remind him of his wretchedness, but of Christ's righteousness.

Wow, I wasn't being literal. Guess you missed that. I suppose I should have put "" around wretched, because I don't think that about them. But as for "loving and humble," brother you are nothing like that. Argumentative and accusatory, consistently.

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

[quote]Wow, I wasn't being literal. Guess you missed that. I suppose I should have put "" around wretched, because I don't think that about them. But as for "loving and humble," brother you are nothing like that. Argumentative and accusatory, consistently.[/quote]

Actually, I'm not. I haven't accused you of anything, nor have I argued with you any more than to just disagree with you.

Whatever I've done, it's certainly been better than the way you people have treated me.

Funny that I don't have this problem with anybody but a couple of people here.

MikeMcK December 1st, 2007

Like Eric, Zeke, I didn't even address you. You're the one who chose to jump all over me without any provocation.

Erik December 2nd, 2007

MikeMcK,

Please stay on the topic of homosexuals and the Church. Of course this can include, among other things, discussions of sin and how we treat people. However, your last two posts have been exclusively personal in nature.

I've started a MikeMcK thread on the Forums in Purgatory. That's a good place for interaction of a more personal nature. I hope you'll join me there MikeMcK.

Charles December 3rd, 2007

Mike: "I don't believe I do serve sin."

This is what is called an impass.

MikeMcK December 3rd, 2007

[quote]Mike: "I don't believe I do serve sin."

This is what is called an impass.[/quote]

I'll tell you the same thing I told Eric and the other one when they accused me of the same thing you're implying:

If you think I'm involved in some sort of unrepentant sin, tell me what it is. Better yet, PM me and I'll give you my pastor's email and you can tell him.

Charles December 3rd, 2007

Unrelenting pride. Same as me.

Why do you think we are here trying to fix one another? Because we love each other? Seriously…

You want me to tattle to your pastor about your pride problem? What's he going to do about it, withold the grape juice and cracker? He's probably ate up with it too….even more so.

"He who has been forgiven much, loves much. He who has been forgiven little, loves little."

MikeMcK December 3rd, 2007

[quote]Unrelenting pride. Same as me. [/quote]

OK. So, can you give an example of this, or do you just make accusations like Eric and Zeke and not feel the need to back them up?

[quote]Why do you think we are here trying to fix one another? Because we love each other? Seriously…[/quote]

I'm not trying to "fix" anybody.

[quote]You want me to tattle to your pastor about your pride problem?[/quote]

No, I want you to do what Jesus said to do when you confront someone (I was going to say "a brother", but it's clear that you people don't consider me your brother and that's just fine with me) with their sin (or, in this case, alleged sin) and they won't respond.

[quote]What's he going to do about it, withold the grape juice and cracker?[/quote]

Good to know that you hold the Lord's Supper in such high esteem.

[quote]He's probably ate up with it too….even more so.[/quote]

Actually, I've known him for about ten years and he's one of the most humble men I know. Of course, that probably won't stop you from slandering him, too.

Erik December 3rd, 2007

I've started a MikeMcK thread on the Forums in Purgatory. That's a good place for interaction of a more personal nature. I hope you'll join me there MikeMcK (where I do in fact refer to you as a brother).

Erik December 3rd, 2007

Charles and anyone else that wants to come is welcome too. Just need to keep this comment thread about homosexuals and the Church. I hope you understand. Thanks.

Mark December 3rd, 2007

Erik, the Jerk Stalker. Love it! Just changed your email address in my Contacts to read "Jerk Stalker".

Blessings Brother!

Charles December 3rd, 2007

You mean the "MikeMcK Personal Interaction Thread"?

Mike and me aren't very close, but my condolences go to him on that one.

Sorry about going off topic.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

Thanks, Charles, but don't worry about it.

I'm giving that thread all of the attention it deserves (ie. [i]none[/i]) and it looks like they've all had their fun and are breaking up now.

Charles December 6th, 2007

That aside, I think it would be good to discuss this more and maybe we can email each other or start another thread. I am a former SEBTS MDiv student myself and am a recovering legalist. It would be good to hash this stuff out, or as many SEBTS ditto heads would say, "Iron sharpening iron."

Erik December 6th, 2007

That's why I started the thread in the Forums in Purgatory. I know you don't believe me MikeMcK, but I'm not being malicious in any way. The Forums are better suited for personal discussion.

Please stay on topic guys. Since I've used these comments as a personal message board, I've seen the error of my ways. It's really a distraction from discussion regarding the posts.

Now if the post is about personal interaction, that's another thing…but this one is about homosexuals and the Church.

Zeke December 6th, 2007

I'm giving that thread all of the attention it deserves (ie. [i]none[/i]) and it looks like they've all had their fun and are breaking up now.

That's an unfortunate way to characterize the interaction. Could it be possible that since the thread turned to reconciliation and understanding that it's no longer interesting to you? Try it on, is all I'm saying.

Sorry Erik, no more from me on this thread.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

It wasn't interesting to me in the first place. I went there once because my name was on it and I wanted to see how I was being dragged through the mud this time, and I answered one question.

I told Erik I forgave him, and I did. But what he and his cheerleaders need to remember is that, all the time he was playing the "I guess you're not going to forgive me" game, he continued to keep right on doing the very thing that he was claiming to ask forgiveness for.

I made a show of good faith and forgave him. However, that I said I forgave him doesn't mean that I have to give him any more ammo to attack me.

Forgiveness is free. Trust has to be earned.

Charles December 6th, 2007

How about them homosexuals in the church?

If living in willful disobedience means no salvation, then I guess we are all damned. All of us prideful, self-righteous religious folks who justify their sin have an eternity to argue the exegesis of Romans 1 with Rosie and Ellen in hell.

How's that for getting back on topic?

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

[quote]If living in willful disobedience means no salvation, then I guess we are all damned.[/quote]

Or I guess you could repent of your sins, put your faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross.

Christov December 6th, 2007

What does it mean to repent? Does it mean I've got to be sorry for my sins? I like some of them better than some of my relatives. Is there a godly sorrow that leads to repentance, or is every repentance born of a sorrow? Is it enough to agree with God that my sin is what God says it is, or do I have feel something about it, as well? What if I sin and in my sin find my identity in Christ, as opposed to trying to make my sin all of myself? And if I die tonight unrepentant of today's sin having rebounded from yesterday's temporary victory over the flesh, the devil, and the world, do I tomorrow and eternally perish tormented night and day with the undying worm in the fiery lake? Do you not still wrestle with God? If he lames me, yet will I struggle, though he slay me, yet will I trust him. Honestly, I've got to reiterate Luther's statement that all I bring to this interaction with the Living God is sin and resistance. It's my best stuff, and it's not very good.

If these homosexual people who claim Christ are truly Christian, is there some reason we can't trust God's son to redeem them and keep them redeemed, and his Spirit to bring conviction according to his will and his word? Like the triune God needs us to help him out here? I'm responsible to speak the truth in love from my encounters with God/Christ/Spirit in scripture with which I've been entrusted by God, but I'm not responsible for whether or how that's received. No need to get exercised about it, full stop.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

[quote]What does it mean to repent?[/quote]

It means that you have to turn from your sin.

The word we get the word "repent" from is a colloquialism that actually carries with it the idea of stopping and changing direction.

[quote]And if I die tonight unrepentant of today's sin having rebounded from yesterday's temporary victory over the flesh, the devil, and the world, do I tomorrow and eternally perish tormented night and day with the undying worm in the fiery lake?[/quote]

The Bible says that those who die in their sins will go to Hell. I know you don't believe that, but that's what the Bible says.

[quote]If these homosexual people who claim Christ are truly Christian, is there some reason we can't trust God's son to redeem them and keep them redeemed, and his Spirit to bring conviction according to his will and his word?[/quote]

If they're Christians, then why are they still living in sin? Yes, I know that you're going to say that we all live in sin, but we don't.

[quote]Like the triune God needs us to help him out here? I'm responsible to speak the truth in love from my encounters with God/Christ/Spirit in scripture with which I've been entrusted by God, but I'm not responsible for whether or how that's received.[/quote]

And part of that truth is repentance.

Christov December 6th, 2007

It sounds like you're saying that once saved never sinning. I don't find that in scripture. I know of some Wesleyans who claim not to ever sin, but do admit to mistakes. However, their mistakes appear to fall within some of the biblical definitions of sin.

Does repentance save?

I do believe that those who die without having had saving contact with the Living God in Christ are eternally condemned. I do not believe that is the same thing as dying without having repented of all sin or not having completely quit sinning. Which is pretty standard Calvinist Reformation theology.

MikeMcK December 6th, 2007

[quote]It sounds like you're saying that once saved never sinning. I don't find that in scripture.[/quote]

I've already explained this to you people a couple of times now.

[quote]Does repentance save?[/quote]

It's a requirement of salvation.

[quote]I do believe that those who die without having had saving contact with the Living God in Christ are eternally condemned. I do not believe that is the same thing as dying without having repented of all sin or not having completely quit sinning. Which is pretty standard Calvinist Reformation theology.[/quote]

Like I said, I knew you wouldn't like it, but it is still what the Bible says.

Christov December 7th, 2007

Where does the scripture state once saved never sinning?

Where does the scripture state that repentance is a requirement for salvation?

Again, where does it state that those who die without having repented of all sin or not having completely quit sinning are consigned therefore to hell?

It's all very well for you to positively aver that these things are so, but unless you can clearly show from the scriptures, consistently the veracity of your doctrinal statements, then I will remain unconvinced. You're a pretty smart guy, but you lack the apostolic mantle of, say, Paul or John, necessary to give weight to your dicta.

I am disappointed to find that you're using even mild pejoratives like "you people" in what appears to be a discussion of the salvific effect of faith in Christ upon those who define themselves or are defined by others as homosexual.

Please define: "you people."

Which brings up an interesting point.

In all this discussion of sin, repentance, salvation, repentance, sin, death, sin, and so forth, I don't think there's been any mention of faith.

Mike, what is faith, and where does it come from?

Finally, it irks the snot out of me that I don't know enough simple html to set remarks aside in quotes, or to make bold or italicized typeface appear herein. You know, like forum software provides simple buttons for automating same.

MikeMcK December 7th, 2007

[quote]Where does the scripture state once saved never sinning?[/quote]

You know, I've explained so many times now that I didn't say that, that I'm not even going to dignify that question with an answer.

[quote]Where does the scripture state that repentance is a requirement for salvation?[/quote]

the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2).

Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ. The Scriptures speak of "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21).

The first public word Jesus preached was "repent" (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3). If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent.

However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a "worker of iniquity." Look a