estuardo May 9th, 2008

After listening to this broadcast, and struggling with my own sexual identity, I have to wonder if the 'approach' is all wrong. I don't have a bunch of abbreviations behind my name, other than I KNOW what it feels like to be in the shoes of someone struggling with this.

I want to pose a paradigm. In my discussions with those who claim they are homosexual, I have yet to find a homosexual person having never experienced some form or fashion of sexual abuse; whether overt or covert, whether they see it as such or not.

I think, if Christians would start to see a person living a homosexual life as someone who was abused sexually, the walls that have been put up will begin to come down, knowing that they are being understood for not only who they are, but what they have had to endure.

Maybe this is only one aspect of homosexuality, but I have yet to see anything else that says otherwise.

Thanks for letting me express that.

internetmonk.com » Blog Archive » The iMonk on Steve Brown, Etc: MP3 Now Available May 9th, 2008

[…] Here's my latest interview on Steve Brown, Etc. I really enjoyed doing the program. Thanks to Steve and Eric for the opportunity to talk about a very difficult issue. […]

davidjames May 10th, 2008

This was a great broadcast and very helpful in my journey to establish a line of thought about where homosexuality fits into my Christian world view…but…it did not answer the one question that has caused me the most difficulty in recent years…let me give you some history…
After a frustrating life in the pentecostal church ( which I will not name) I finally made a decision that led me to a real personal realtionship ith Christ…I left the church…that was almost 20 years ago. Since then I have struggled to find a church that emulated the true nature of Christ. A couple of years ago through the most unusual circumstances I ended up involved with the local Episcopalian church…me an Anglican! I couldn't believe it. But when I looked at what they were doing in the community and abroad it met my criterion for a real church…However…and this is the biggy…there is a tacit acceptance of very open and active homosexual couples in the church. I am not just talking about acceptance as in welcome to the services, I am talking about positions of teaching and leadership and involvement at every level. There is almost a celebration of their chosen lifestyle. And at the very least an unspoken acknowledgment that this is what I am, this is how I choose to live, and that is OKAY.
I have gone through a personal journey in recent years that has involved a lot of change on my part in how I view lesbians and gays, and how I view them within the church, but I am afraid there is still a voice, a rather loud voice, in my heart that says the church should not be the staging ground for homosexual couples to affirm the "rightness" of their behavior.
The result has been, no matter how much I love the pastor, the members, their openness, their inclusion of my music in the services, I cannot find a comfortable spot as long as this exists. I feel like a traitor, I feel guilty, and I don't quite know how to procedd. I was hoping the interview today would offer me some more insight but it didn't…can anyone; Eric, Steve, or Mike offer any insight into my situation. I am feeling seperated and not knowing which direction to go. Thank you so much.

Brian May 10th, 2008

Hi davidjames,

I'd call that "rather loud voice" the voice of the Holy Spirit! It may have been "Steve Brown's voice you heard (: )) ….but I'm not sure of his position on this particular issue as compared to all other kinds of sin which stains the church. I think you bring up an excellent point which confronts the "visible" church in America today. Many today would rather not "confront" this type of sin as a means for a need to repent, so, hence the confusion. It's b/c churches have grown "soft on sin"….not "low on "grace or freedom" that we see gay clergy as rampant as we do today.

Conducting a ministry which promotes "freedom" only leads one to take unintended liberties with "grace" and use it as a shield to defend vs. any who so ever would "judge with righteous judgement" as we are instructed to employ by God's command so as to resonate some form of God's Authority within the "visible" church. For some (many actually) on this message board, "judging" or standing up vs. sin seems to be an apparent sin itself when it comes to taking a stand for Christ. In case someone should think the calling out of sin is "sinful"….why then do we have these passages in Scripture??

Luke 7:43
and the Lord Jesus said unto him: "Thou hast rightly judged."

Luke 12:57
"Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (KJV)
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?" (NAS)
"Tell me, why do you not judge for yourselves what is just?" (NAB)

"Why do you not of yourselves judge what is right?"
(LAMSA translation from Aramaic language of Christ and the Apostles.)

John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (KJV)

"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (NAS)

"Stop judging by appearances and make an honest judgment." (NAB).

"Do not judge by partiality, but judge a just judgment." (LAMSA)

As time goes by, we certainly see a growing community of gays and lesbians who publicly make inroads wherever they find an acceptance of their "choice" of public lifestyle. It's one thing to be a "struggling" rather than a "smuggling" gay or lesbian…..everyone struggles with sin, but those who "freely" take "righteousness" in exhibiting what God declares "unrighteous"….should never be in a leadership role representing "sin" as a flagship of "what any Christian should be taught to believe".

Suppose Steve came out and declared he was gay…..and was even obstinately and publically proud of it declaring "he who is without sin cast the first stone", or that "We all have sin, what makes this sin any different?? Would you all just go along with it?? While it doesn't invalidate some of the truth he does declare, it would in no uncertain terms disqualify him from Public Ministry in any truly biblical context. I would suppose many would find a way to include him to "stick with it" perhaps, but only b/c he is viewed in light of what some perceive as being a great ministerial help to so many people. Sad, but it would show how many people actually follow a "person's teaching" at the expense of God's.

Davidjames, I think you should follow your heart on this one, it bears witness to God's truth….leave that place, and find one like the Bible actually describes!!

Wouter May 10th, 2008

I found it interesting that Michael almost didn't dare to mention "civil union" on the air. I am always amazed that the greatest sin in the United States seems to be homosexuality. Other sins like divorce, geed lust etc are lesser sins. As a Canadian I am quite used to same sex marriage as it has been legal in my Province for amost 5 years. It is a secular issue here, as it applies to recognition by government. Christian marriage has not changed, and each church continues with the same rules and requirements they have always had. If we demonstrate hatred against gay people as I see so often within Christ's church, how can a gay person ever be reached by Christ? Only by His Grace, despite the attitudes of those of us who are also sinners saved only by His Grace.

Zeke May 11th, 2008

Interesting choice of pictures for this post.

Brian May 11th, 2008

Will it be in the name of "grace" that the churches in America "lighten up" or roll out the red carpet for accepting gay and lesbian couples who will soon have a "right" to join their church of choice (rather than attend)? I can clearly see how this trend will someday have "government support" and inclusion of church and state. Canada is clearly more "Secularly Civil" than
the United States is at this point, Just how free is a Canadian pastor to speak up, or out about what "should" be when the Gays and Lesbians have approval and state support to "be recognized members" in the church of their choice?? That's the next bridge to be crossed. Just How free are Canadian Pastors to speak politically?? There's a great legal battle brewing here in America, who's govt. wants to socialize the country. I hope alot more Pastors join to break this ban.

"Conservative Law Group Urges Pastors To Break IRS Ban On Partisan Politics
by The Associated Press

Posted: May 9, 2008 - 5:00 pm ET

(New York City) Conservative legal advocates are recruiting pastors nationwide to defy an IRS ban on preaching about politicians, in a challenge they hope will abolish the restriction.

The Alliance Defense Fund, based in Scottsdale, Ariz., will ask the clergy to deliver a sermon about specific candidates Sept. 28. If the action triggers an IRS investigation, the legal group will sue to overturn the federal rules, which were enacted in 1954.

The ADF has been involved in a number of lawsuits against LGBT issues in various states.

Under the IRS code, churches can distribute voter guides, run voter registration drives, hold forums on public policy and invite politicians to speak at their congregations.

However, they cannot endorse a candidate, and their political activity cannot be biased for or against a candidate, directly or indirectly.

The Alliance Defense Fund said Friday that the regulations amount to an unconstitutional limit on free speech and government intrusion into religion.

"It certainly does have a chilling effect," said Mike Johnson, senior counsel for the fund. "I think that there is a lot of fear and intimidation and disinformation about the parameters that do exist."

Johnson said about 100 pastors have expressed interest in participating so far.

The IRS has stepped up monitoring of nonprofit political activity during the 2008 election. Punishments can range from a financial penalty to loss of tax-exempt status."

Perhaps there will come a time when the church will be found asleep at the wheel ushering in a faulty version of grace in a state "monitored" church. As long as 'tax emempt status" is enjoyed by so many churches, it doesn't sound like they would put up much of a fight for a stand for God…if they must be so "legally, verbally compliant"….isn't the church just being bought off, or quenched so as to keep the civility? What a whimpy place the church has become.

Erik May 11th, 2008

Interesting choice of pictures for this post.

Interesting in what way brootha Zeke? Have I offended?

mike May 12th, 2008

hey erik, have I ever told you how much I love… The Ghost of Tom Joad bumper music?

Ed May 12th, 2008

I haven't heard the interview yet, but I just spent a while looking at a similar archived topic from December … and wondered what in the world attracts people to any blog at all …

I have gone to a fairly conservative church for 20 years, and because I did not grow up in a Christian home, belived that there were simple answers to life's questions from God, and that the Christians in my church were surely the whole-hearted, devoted, compassionate type who cared about truth and did not allow their preconceptions to get in the way.

That was an idyllic dream that was hard and shocking to wake up from.

Then I became a bit of a crusader, thinking that I was the one that would clear people's heads about the issues.

That was an even harder dream to awake from and more of a shock to my system. Especially as I found out about the depth of my sin and the pervasiveness and tenaciousness of it in my life.

I still care about truth - but I know I don't always see as clearly as I think …

I still care about sin - but I don't want to trivialize it by magnifying only the ones I don't struggle with.

I think the biggest problem in the church is not the acceptence of sin or the "poor testimony" of its members, but in fact the trivialization of sin to be only those external things that are relatively easy to change, or the assumption that *I* have it right. Sin is so deceptive. We create these self-righteous communities that are far more dangerous than the silly, relatively ineffectiveness of liberal ones tat are so easy to shoot at …

I have a situation to describe, but I'll put in in another post - sorry for being so long-winded …

Ed May 12th, 2008

I am in a discussion with a friend who goes to a baptist church that is openly accepting and affirming of the homosexual lifestyle. I have also recently gone through some material on how people change, and I am convinced that the harshness that some are so easily drawn to use with sinners is rarely effective, and then perhaps only so with those who are self-righteous. I have not,as far as I remember, ever been tempted with a homosexual thought, but my heterosexual sin has been pervasive in my life at times. I do not speak to my friend as one who has never struggled in this area, even if not precisely as he does. He knows all the things that typical Christians say about homosexuality. He is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable about the Bible. So, the typical arguments don't work with him - he already knows them and has a better answer than most of us. It does me little good to shout condemnation at him - which is what he expects - and it is not a simple "thus saith the Lord." He is quick to point out, as others have on this board, that Christians are selective on the verses they obey. And certainly, very few of us would claim to have consistent victory over sin in our lives in any area.

He thinks he can explain most of the "typical verses" fundamentalist throw at him - except perhaps Romans 1. I thought that was a huge concession on his part, and if I was looking to win a battle, I would have latched onto that as a zinger. I don't want to battle him - I want him to see God's truth. I don't personally yet see how a practicing homosexual enters into the kingdom of heaven - just as I don't see how a practicng adulterer or thief could either. On the other hand, Jesus moved aldultery from just the physical act to the act within the heart. So, no matter how much the outer man is polished, if the inner man lusts, you are an aldulterer. If the inner man covets, you are a thief. If you hate, you are a murderer. And now that verse becomes troublesome for everyone I know … and yet it is there, immovable across time …

So, while I have a hard time seeing that a person who practices homosexuality throughout their life without repentence could be a Christian, I also know I'm not the judge. I'm not even the judge's interpreter. The judge has set down his message in the language of men, and it means something. But I can't claim omniscient understanding … and yet, this is a vitally important issue - one with perhaps salvific implications … and therefore, the conversation must go on …

In the end though, I am not saved by my works, I am not saved by what I don't do, I'm not saved by my repentence - or even the quality of my repentence. I am saved by Christ alone.

But I do believe that when someone is regenerated, when they are saved, they are connected to a living organism - and therefore growth is not just possible, but inescapable. Therefore, if growth never happens, well, phaps we're still conected to the dead tree … But someone who is connected to Christ will do good works, won't be characterized by things contrary to his kingdom, and will repent. But change can be slow - and we are told that we struggle with all His energy …

So I cling to Christ as my only hope, seek to go where he bids me go, and strive to be like Him in His strength … for His Glory …

Someday, when we see Him, we'll be like Him. Until then, we struggle.

Steve Brown Etc. » Blog Archive » Etcetera - 05.13.08 - Dis-Orientation May 14th, 2008

[…] off of the discussion regarding homosexuals and evangelicals with Michael Spencer on SBE, we pulled out the list of all the other behaviors of non-inheritors of the kingdom of God. You […]