Derek September 5th, 2008

Eh. I don't get it. Am I supposed to be shocked and scandalized that the church eventually broke into "pagan" culture and "became all things to all men so that some might be saved"? I thought that was common knowledge.

This whole Viola things sounds like hype to me. Of course the church has pagan roots. Judaism has pagan roots (animal sacrifice, temple, etc). I have heard Viola on a few podcasts and he is always amiable and friendly and non-combative, but then I remember seeing webpages he used to have up telling pastors how to leave the church if they read his chapter on the pastorate and were "having a crisis of conscience." I would at least like to hear someone corner him on that one, because Pagan Christianity sounds like one big guilt trip - even if he is nice when you talk to him in person.

Greg Jones September 6th, 2008

Great program today. One thing that I thought might have been missed was on the subject of tithing. Yes, the tithe was originally a Jewish tax of 23.3% (two annual tithes of 10% and an additional 10% divided over 7 years).

What was not clearly stated was that because the tithe was a Jewish tax, it was a requirement under a Jewish Theocracy. It was a requirement of the law.

I therefore believe that Christians are under no such obligation, but rather should give from the heart to God in whatever amount we feel Him to lead us.

Steve September 6th, 2008

I really enjoyed the program today. One of the best.

A couple of quick comments:
There is a big difference between the church in the sense of an organization and the Church in the sense of the universal collective body of believers in Christ. Most believers I know would embrase this… till it gets to specifics.

Before I go on I should point out that I am an active member of a large church and believe that is where God wants me to fellowship. From this perspective it appears to me that Pagan Christianity points out differences between tradition and spirituality dare I say not to make anyone feel guilty, but to release them from the tyrany of performance that pervades institutionalized Christianity.

I may also dare to say that one of the things that has been happening on a worldwide basis over the last decade or so is that millions of believers are leaving churches not to get away from God but to draw closer to Him. These meetings have lots of different forms but It would not surprise me to look back on the turn of the turn of the last century many years from now and see it as a time when the Church changed fundamentally in a way not seen since Martin Luther.

Derek September 6th, 2008

Doesn't he say in the book that pastors by being pastors are being dishonoring to God and "hindering" God?

And preaching?

And getting a salary?

This stuff never comes up on podcasts…
Sounds like another fundamentalism.

Derek September 6th, 2008

here are the quotes from Pagan Christianity that flat out condemns pastors, across the board:

"The contemporary pastorate rivals the functional headship of Christ in His church. It illegitimately holds the unique centrality and headship among God's people, a place reserved for only one Person- the Lord Jesus. Jesus Christ is the only head over a church and the final word to it. By his office, the pastor displaces and supplants Christ's headship by setting himself up as the human head."

"Nothing so hinders the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose as does the present day-pastoral role."

"How can a man preach a sermon on being faithful to the Word of God while he is preaching a sermon?" (implying that anyone who preaches isn't "faithful to the word")

"John Newton rightly said, 'Let not him who worships under a steeple condemn him who worships under a chimney." With that in mind, what biblical, spiritual, or historical authority does any Christian have to gather under a steeple in the first place?"

"We are also making an outrageous proposal: that the church in its contemporary, institutional form has neither a biblical nor a historical right to exist."

and on his Q and A blog, Frank characterized objections to the book as "job-security for modern clergy that's built on fear and helplessness."

This is just the regulative principle with an attention-grabbing cover. He isn't just asking questions, he is declaring that you have no right to meet under a steeple, that your pastor is the biggest hinderance to Jesus just by being a pastor, that listening to a sermon is being unfaithful to the word…and on and on.

Of course, hawking CD teachings from your webpage doesn't count, right? They are Cds of "talks" not sermons, right? And charging for them. I'm sure Frank pays his own way to all the conferences he speaks at. And the $$$ that his books are bringing in - he doesn't see a cent of that, right?

Isn't there a new testament term that Jesus coined for people who lay heavy burdens on others and do the same thing themselves? Something like "play-actor"?

Don September 7th, 2008

Derek. You sound bitter and angry. I would suggest you go to http://www.ptmin.org/answers.htm and see the authors answer your specific questions and judgments.

The podcasts on that page are consistent with what they say in the book. The authors make clear in the book that they aren't attacking pastors, but they are challenging the modern office of the pastor. Here are some quotes.

"Note that we are using the term pastor throughout this chapter to
depict the contemporary pastoral office and role, not the specific individual who fills this role. By and large, those who serve in the office of pastor are wonderful people. They are honorable, decent, and very often gifted Christians who love God and have a zeal to serve His people. But it is the role they fill that both Scripture and church history are opposed to." p. 108

"It is not in our hearts to demean any pastor or minister. We believe that most of them are called of God, love God, and are servants to His people (see p. 106). Yet we understand that some pastors may feel attacked when reading this chapter. We
suggest that, in some cases, that may be because their identity is so tied up with their position, which isn’t surprising considering the leadership structure and system we have created and passed down through the years. Pastors who are secure in their
office or role should not feel threatened as they read this book. We do not claim to be infallible in our conclusions. We simply ask that our readers be open to considering them."

You get to know a person's heart by hearing them speak and answer questions. Reading books is not as good for this because you can read into it your own tone of voice and attitude. Podcast interviews are great for this reason.

Erik September 8th, 2008

Am I supposed to be shocked and scandalized that the church eventually broke into "pagan" culture and "became all things to all men so that some might be saved"? I thought that was common knowledge.

I think Steve would agree with you Derek. On this show when Steve said something to the effect of, "I understand about all the pagan roots of stuff, but that's because we won," I think he was saying something similar to what you've expressed.

In the past when Steve is asked about Christmas trees and the pagan roots in much of how we celebrate on Dec. 25, he has said that the conquering Christ has come into those rituals and made them His own, rather than the rituals corrupting the church.

I get that. Kinda like the Borg on Star Trek. We will assimilate you!

The only problem I have is this…when those pagan practices actually get in the way of communion with the Father and His children, why hold on to them just because we've done them for so long? Especially when there's no Biblical reasons we started holding on to those things in the first place.

And Greg, I hear you on the 23.3%!

Don September 8th, 2008

Barna and Viola agree with that point also and they say this very thing in ther book. What they are addressing are the human made traditions that they believe have redefined the church. I read both books and enjoyed them, but I think the sequel Reimagining Church is the best one.

Erik September 8th, 2008

The Internet Monk on Viola…real live post-evangelical action!

Tony Heringer September 9th, 2008

Erik…just browsed through the imonk thread. Whoa nelly! Looking forward to listening to this show. Sounds like thou has openth a can of worms.

As for the tithe, check out Abraham and Melchizedek and Jesus' connection to the two. No matter your conclusion on tithing the 2 Cor 9:7 reference given earlier is certainly the spirit God expects from us in giving — doing it gladly and not under compulsion.

Derek September 9th, 2008

Erik said:

"The only problem I have is this…when those pagan practices actually get in the way of communion with the Father and His children, why hold on to them just because we've done them for so long? Especially when there's no Biblical reasons we started holding on to those things in the first place."

Who decides when these practices actually get in the way? Maybe some USES of the practices gat in the way and others don't. This whole across the board dismissal of organized Christianity is one I want no part in. It's just trying to recreate the perfect church and it's just as vulnerable to excesses and vain religiousity as any other model. When Viola claimed affinity with the emerging conversation, I nearly drove into a telephone pole. It seems like the emerging church is defined (!) by trying to get away from the whole "finding the RIGHT way to do church" goose chase and finding "the right way for these particular people" - whoever the local folks are - not some perfect model, one-size fits all kind of thing.

I am totally with Steve on this one. Pagan pacatices redeemed by Christ are worth celebrating. And guess what? Non-pagan practices can be just as harmful if done with a religious spirit. That is, assuming there is any such thing as "non-pagan" anything - since the word "pagan" is meaningless today in a post-Christendom world.

I guess I expected a little more "push-back" from Steve. I'm sick of hearing softball interviews with Frank - if anyone could direct me to an interview where we has to answer these questions, let me know. But don't refer me to the official Q & A site that Frank himself made. He asks himself questions there and answers them. Come on…

Derek September 9th, 2008

Don:

Your quotes and my quotes sound like two different people.

Pastors shouldn't feel threatened by a man who claims that simply by being a pastor they are the greatest hinderance to God's work in the world today? Pfft.

You seem to be quoting "podcast Frank"..I'm quoting "book Frank." It's two different Franks, as usual.

Don September 9th, 2008

I was quoting the book Pagan Christianity. The page numbers come after the qoutes.

Tony Heringer September 9th, 2008

Erik…thanks for your wrap up at the end. There may be some issues with what the book is saying versus what Frank said today based on the way folks are digging into the scholarship of these books here and elsewhere. We'll blame George Barna for any sloppy scholarship

I'm with Steve, there is room in the family for the house church movement. I was discipled by a pastor who became disillusioned with the organized church and he formed a house church — think he still has it going. He was zealous about it and really wanted me onboard with him.

He had taught me so much that I felt obligated to hear him out. It fell apart for me over lunch one day. He brought in an author — like Frank (heck, it might have been Frank, he certainly sounded familiar to me) who said, "well this model isn' for everybody. In fact if you press this too much, you will be searching for the one or two folks who read the Bible exactly the same way you do." In other words, he was there to ask questions not to bury the institutional church.

Currently we are in a large PCA church, one that Steve frequents(we must pay him well. :-)). It's Perimeter Church with a pastor named Pope. So, we are very institutional…and loving it.

Erik, on tithing, relax its only 10% see my last post about Abe and Mel. Which is really 2% for the average church goer, just ask Barna. How can we attack something that most Christians fail to do anyway?

I am glad that Steve pointed out that for some folks 10% is stealing. Over the years, I've been involved with ministries looking to encourage folks to live off of 10% and there are plenty of folks in my area that could do it. Or we could go with the Rich Mullins model. He direct deposited all his filthy lucre (sp?) with the church and asked to be paid the average salary of a working man. I wonder how that would go over with a church building campaign

Keep up the great work guys! Love what you are doing!

Steve Brown Etc. » Blog Archive » Etcetera - 09.09.08 - The Sensation of Sight September 10th, 2008

[…] - Pagan Christianity? - Frank Viola on SBE […]

Obed September 10th, 2008

I agree with what iMonk said about Viola's voice being one that needs to be heard whether we agree with him or not.

I also tend to line up more with iMonk when it comes to some of the pathologies of the (Evangelical) Church today. While all denominations have inherant problems of one sort or another, the commercialization of Christianity in much of today's evangelicalism is much more of a problem than pagan roots of Christian practices. As I told a friend who's very hostile to the institutional Church, there is no doubt when going to a traditional Christmas mass (whether Catholic or Anglican or Orthodox) that the whole reason for the service is Jesus. All that crap the World does is irrelevant at that point. Same with Easter and other lesser holy days.

That said, I didn't have a problem with what Viola said in this interview. I think he was pretty on target in the interview. The title "Pagan Christianity?" is really offputting, though. I'd have totally ignored Viola if iMonk and SB hadn't brought him up. That whole "the Church is evil 'cuz Christmas and Easter are pagan!" crap got old years ago. Take it from someone who spent years in Messianic Judaism, most of the time that arguement is an intellectually ignorant attempt at being intellectually superior.

Steve Brown Etc. » Blog Archive » Etcetera - 09.10.08 - More Pagan Christianity September 11th, 2008

[…] - Pagan Christianity? - Frank Viola on SBE […]

Uriel September 12th, 2008

Animal Sacrifice and the Temple building do not have their roots in paganism. Under the covenant given through Moses animal sacrifice is commanded. God also gave David and Solomon the instructions to build His House. Ezekiel speaks of a future Temple that will be built in the time of the Messianic Kingdom. Derek is misinformed regarding animal sacrifice and the Temple. Tithing is not a Jewish Tax but rather based on a Biblical command.Greg is also misinformed.

Mike September 22nd, 2008

I loved the show, I have read the iMonk blog. I can't wait to win the book from Erik and read it for myself. I would love to know what things in the book are reliable and what things aren't. I keep hearing that it is spoty but not any specifics as to what data is and isn't reliable. I get in trouble a lot for pointing out the paganism of Christmas and Easter, this could get me in even more trouble. Fun fun fun.

Steve Brown Etc. » Blog Archive » Etcetera - 09.23.08 - Give It Away Now September 24th, 2008

[…] Mystic and Geoduck Joe joined me on this edition of Etcetera to catch up and give away 5 copies of Pagan Christianity?. Use one of the options below to join us for the live drawing and lots of […]

Rick September 30th, 2008

All I can say is that I have been part of the type of house church that Viola and Barna write and speak of. I have found, though, that it has been difficult for me to communicate the freedom in Christ that I live in today. They have provided for me, and others I'm sure, some Biblical information to satisfy the questions I routinely get regarding the house church. At one point we had an institutional Pastor attend a gathering with us and his non-critical comment afterword was "these guys are in a different realm". Amen.

House Church: Ready for Prime Time? Frank Viola says ‘Yes!’ « zoecarnate October 23rd, 2008

[…] church practitioners should take Frank and his ecclesiology seriously. RTS prof Steve Brown is pleasantly surprised by house church ideas. And Relevant's newly-launched Neue Ministry discovers that house […]

Nathan November 7th, 2008

Great book so far! However, after recently finishing chpt. 8 Tithing & Clergy salaries, I do have one question?! Under the subtitle "Is Tithing Biblical?" (pg.173) a comment was made that I feel lacked thorough explanation (This was the Biblical tithe. Notice that God commanded Israel to give 23.3% of their income every year, as opposed to 10%.) and thus has caused me to question its validity. It is my understanding that the word tithe literally means "tenth". Therefore to say that 23.3% is a tithe does not add up to me.
It is also my understanding that during those times the Israelites paid their tithe biannually. So, it would make sense to see how someone could mistakenly attempt to add the two together and come with 20% annually? That still doesn't explain where the other 3.3% derived from. Nonetheless, regardless of how I attempt to put it all together I continue to fall short.
Could someone please explain this to me biblically and in much greater depth?
Thanks in advance for your assistance!

Zane November 9th, 2008

Viola, the real author of the "co-authored" PC, has provided us with his adaptation of quaker/brethrenism (without giving the due credit). The only thing missing is the "silence meeting." Several other prominent elements in his books have no precedent in history nor scripture. Certainly, he is not representative of the entire alternative church movement which is several decades older than the "emergent church."

Over the years, the reformed tradition has made much of the household baptism - what would a biblically ordered household church look like? How might the reformed branch of the church utilize such?

Rod Koozmin April 25th, 2009

I just thought it was too much hype and "commedy" and too little substance and discussion. Obviously I am a Viola fan but would have listened to some feed back on the issues. I like to listen to good interview or discussion programs and I think that there would be a market for them.

Sarah April 27th, 2009

I thought this interview was okay but it was really short. The ones with Viola and Barna are more indepth. I listened to them at http://www.ptmin.org. I just heard the interview Steve did with Frank on "From Eternity to Here" and I thought that one was really good.