greg from canada January 26th, 2008

I would be interested to hear how the simple way is doing post fire. Here is another guy that you might be interested in having on as well http://imprint.uwaterloo.ca/legacy/story.php?f=2&t=8041&i=&v=f&story=8041&

Brian January 26th, 2008

Hey Greg,
This really sounds like a great book! In the discription mentioned it lists,

"Vagacs believes that there are four categories of readers for this book: you are neither a U2 fan nor a Christ follower, you are a U2 fan with no real connection to Jesus Christ, you are a Christian with no real connection to U2 or you are both a U2 fan and a Christian."

What about the "Christian" who has no real connection to Christ?? Unchosen "believers" are people too. : )))

Christov January 26th, 2008

Siberian episode sounds pretty interesting. Meagher's website doesn't provide much in the way of photos or maps, and clearly needs an eschatological chart illustrating the place of the Tunguska Event
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event ) in prophecy and redemptive history. I'm not serious about the Tunguska sentence. Everybody knows that was a Tesla experiment gone wrong.

Here's a Wikipedia page on the Sakha Republic:;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic

Harry January 28th, 2008

I saw the book by Jacobs in Borders a few weeks back. I'll have to check it out again before next month's show.

Derek January 29th, 2008

Is Frank Schaeffer the son of Francis Schaeffer? Cool! That should be fascinating. I read several books by his father years ago. I'm curious to hear what he has to say.

Charles January 30th, 2008

I will try to listen in on Frank Schaeffer's interview.

I loved his father. Long story short, his Trilogy led me, a vociferous atheist, to Jesus Christ….12 years after he died.

I agree with some of the criticism about his dad's view of history and the focus on political activism, but his dad was brilliant, caring and totally invested in what God called him to do. Alot of the criticism of his mom and dad and the 'religious right' are harsh and unforgiving….unfair.

Believe me….I can be those things about the religious folks. But I wince when I read some of this stuff.

I think maybe my problem is that the criticism itself turns out to be the same thing as what is being criticized. I hate politics. Frank likes Democrats and hates Bush. That's cool. But a lack of historical perspective forget that people were saying the same things about LBJ in the '60's and Truman in the early 50's as they are saying about Bush now. For political hacks, perfection is required and failure is unforgivable.

Also, I think Frank's taking responsibility for the Bush Administration, Iraq, Iran and Republican control of congress is like me taking responsibility for cancer.

Erik February 1st, 2008

greg from canada said…

"I would be interested to hear how the simple way is doing post fire."

By your command (see above).

greg from canada February 1st, 2008

Cool! I will be looking forward to listening to this show

George McFly February 1st, 2008

I'm thinking about shacking up at the Vatican with a bunch of hippies.

George McFly February 5th, 2008

I've seen the enemy. He goes by the name of "Roy". He talks with a lisp and reads National Geographic on Tuesdays. He likes to watch anything starring Danny DeVito, and walks with a limp. He can be charming, but the stains on his Tshirt cancel that out. He sings while he walks, and shouts when he talks. And he wears leather jackets in July.

And he likes Cheetos.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

Wild Erik, won't you shut this guy down?

Don February 14th, 2008

Has Steve ever had Brennan Manning on his program? I believe he would be a very interesting guest.

George McFly February 14th, 2008

How about Gene Wilder?

Chemical Erik February 15th, 2008

Looking at old episodes, what about bringing back Nancy Heche? She was one of the most interesting guests. One of the Mars Hill crew would be good also. Given Driscol's schedule, Rob Bell (Velvet Elvis, NOOMA) or "Pastor Bubba" might be better.

Christov February 15th, 2008

I'd like to hear from Robert Sutton, guy who wrote this book: http://tinyurl.com/yrdgs6 - I don't even care that it's not a "Christian" book. What passes for the church needs to hear this stuff.

Chemical Erik February 16th, 2008

If we're going for business authors, I vote Eliyahu M. Goldratt. He started as an Isreali Physicist and later applied science to business. He wrote his books on busniess as novels, which read great. He has challenged many of the business practices that were and still are the common way of doing things.
Again, not a Christian (he's Jewish), but someone the churches need to hear. Actually, some of the Methodists have listened.
Here's his official page:
http://www.eligoldratt.com/index.php?cont=21
and the Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliyahu_M._Goldratt

Brian February 16th, 2008

We can throw grace to get past all types of sin.. ….except jerks??

Hmmm…..now you're preachin to the choir…..see?? sin really does matter. Every negative observation made on this site is proof that "selective grace" is at work. You see…..since sin shouldn't supercede grace, there really isn't anything about anybody you have the "right" to throw a stone at……this is exactly the problem that a "neo grace" teaching is up against……but I'm glad you took a stand for the correct and balanced view Christov. Since we've been made rightous….we no longer have to act like beggars not knowing any better….since….the grace imparted and imputed by Christ has made you well. It wasn't the appeal to the law that made the pharisee's wrong…..it was the additional extra's and twisting to God's list that Christ took offense. God's Law….and grace….go hand in hand and are inseperable. A tension that should and must always exist for the true Christian. I agree with you Christov….truth is God's wherever we find it scripturally appraised, and often, God uses non believers to convey His truth more than we give credit!! Great find…..I can't stand jerks in the church either, and yet a "grace" only theology does nothing to get rid of them.

Christov February 16th, 2008

You're right - all truth is God's truth, and there's so little regard for it in culture and what passes for the church that it typically stands out like something shiny in a dull place.

The thing about grace is it's irresistible, and, because it has its origin in and is set in motion by God, we don't get to "do" anything with it, much less throw or apply it either sparingly or liberally. The thing about the law is it is meant to lead us to the brink of the abyss at which point we posit the need for a savior; and, in terms of how we treat others, according to that savior, Christ, the whole law and the prophets depend upon upon loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, strength (I think that's the right three), and upon loving your neighbor as yourself. We hear a lot about loving God in church, but very little about loving our neighbor.

Anyway Brian, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but what you wrote made me think.

Brian February 17th, 2008

Yes, The Grace God offers is agreeably quite irresistable!!…..Yet, I happen to think Christians often offer a 'grace" perverted and synthetic. Christ, while the 'fullfilment" of the law, did not come to abolish the law….many "grace only" folks would somehow wish He actually had….for in their view, there's no real point to the law anymore for Christians….who, since they are no longer under it's condemnation….. view this really as a means for "abolishment" and enjoy reducing every commandment or precept to "love God and love your neigbor"…and do as you please. ….with so many parenthetical warning verses telling us to guard our hearts, shake the dust off ones feet, do not throw pearls before swine…and so on….the content (and context) of so much more than just "love" is certainly involved here….especially to excercise discernment when "loving thy neighbor obviously isn't enough!

One could argue the point of that which pleases God can (and often does) tick people off and can indeed appear "less loving" than many would think it could, would, or even should. . …It assumes everyone must obviously know what "love" is and means. I would beg to differ. What seems "loving" to you, may not be to someone else, nor even to God….and when we define our message soley upon this, we couldn't be further from His truth.

The Grace we received from God not only frees us from God's grip of condemnation, it also "enables" us to "obey Him", and try we should. Keeping God's commandments glorify Him, and are part of the reason we were saved in the first place!!….I see waaaay too many folks proud of the fact they are "scandaoulsly free" but forget they were bought with a price to serve God as "slaves" and to pursue rightousness!! Paul uses this continuously throughout the NT. A grace which doesn't humble, isn't from God…..I think we live in a time where every teaching of a man's (women's) "rightly dividing the Word" has become heinously questionable. Without truth, this cannot be done….Only God's Grace is irresistable….mine and yours is not! There is a danger in offering a "grace" which truly isn't from God. Oprah and Gahndi both offer(ed) a grace encompassing peace for all mankind (and the American Way for Oprah) but absolutely has little or nothing to do with pleasing God….it, in fact, must infuriate Him, much in the way the "money lenders" used God's Synagogue to conduct the equivelent of business within today's churches! These folks are under the wrath of God! Does this make me unloving to tell folks this?? It is in fact unloving NOT to tell them this.

The opposite of Grace, "Wrath"…..is ever so hesitant to be brought up to the non-believer (in fear of it interfering with "grace"). Even the countless "believers" who took the "grace" of Christ as "saviour" without changing at all possess an imaginary grace which isn't real….for a Grace which comes from God always causes repentance and change! There is no other kind of Grace God offers…..the harder side to God's truth is so seldom mentioned when witnessing (a great book btw….is Bruce Metzger's "Tell the Truth") that we leave non believers with a lacking sense of accountability to a Holy and, in their case, Wrathful God….this is the true Biblcial Message. Too often, we are offering Grace, before they've been told "why" they even need it. Steve Brown in his attempt to show love to the non believer, either assumes the person is already convicted…and therefor talking about their sin is irrelevant…(ie extending "grace" without a confrontation with sin) or he doens't believe telling the real truth to the uncoverted is really that important…ie. they are lost, in need of a saviour not just to escape the wrath of a Holy God….but to receive power to overcome sin, and live a life which truly can be pleasing to God. Even though God sees Christ when He looks at us, Christians must still strive to live a life of gratitude which pleases God, since God has changed our nature from being slaves to sin, to being slaves to God's rightousness!!

Charles February 17th, 2008

In other words, love is conditional. You are loved and accepted…only if you do and think just right.

Steve Brown, myself and others here hold the Bible very high and believe what Paul wrote about the law and grace in Romans 6, 7 and 8, as well as Galatians. No one considers the law bad. We are, and it kills us. There is a HUGE difference between that and no respect for law.

There is no desire on my part or anyone else here that I can tell, to voluntarily subject ourselves under the yoke of the law. No amount of preaching or blogging will ever convince me to remove the easy yoke of Christ's finished work, in order to go back to the enslavement and condemnation of never being good enough. That is hell on earth, not rest for the soul.

If the law could save (or do anything for me), then Christ died in vain and I am still dead in my sins.

BTW, Brennan Manning is very awesome. I would love for Steve to have him on the show. Brennan has a very firm grasp on God's ruthless love and acceptance for us, despite ourselves and our tendency to abandon Christ's work to pick up the shovel and begin to build our own spiritual ways, truths and lives.

Christov February 18th, 2008

Since the law is God’s, we’re no more able to effectually apply it than we are able to effectually apply grace. God hasn’t redeemed us in order to reshackle us to the law in such a way that we’d be able to live within its strictures and according to its every tenet. Down that path lies the erroneous teaching of Christian perfectionism – that now we can choose, maybe after some experience of sanctification or second blessing, to live sinless.

Those who preach and teach such a possibility typically limit their definition of sin to “a willful transgression of a known law of God.” That is, for an act or omission to be classed as sin, every element of the definition must be present. Otherwise what I would argue is a clear manifestation of the fallenness of both man and creation (therefore sin) is termed a “mistake.” This is the current popularly taught devolution in Wesleyan thought on the subject.

But it was Jesus, himself, who defined his message, that is, the law and the prophets (for who other than Christ can, from the perspective of one informed by the canon of the New Testament, be said to have authored same) in terms of love. Which is not to say that I do an even adequate job of loving God or my neighbor. For Christ to say that keeping the law and the prophets depends upon the quality of one’s love doesn’t make the burden of the law any lighter, rather it makes indisputably clear that fallen man (or woman – I use the term generically) is entirely incapable of fulfilling its requirements. The law is not the Gospel, even when it is Jesus who clarifies the law.

I suppose a case can reasonably be made that the message of the prophets is Gospel, and I’d probably be inclined to make that argument if I really gave it some thought. But even Gospel is something to which man cannot attain without the enlivening power of the Almighty. The work is all God’s, all the time.

As to ticking people off, we find a principle in testaments old and new that one ought to (OT - Proverbs, I think) bind kindness and truth together in dealing with others, and (NT) speak the truth in love. I reckon Paul’s thought was informed by his understanding of the principle found in the Proverbs, as were so many of Jesus’ parables. Here’s a principle that’s the same under law as it is under grace which implies that I’ve got some meaningful choice about the manner in which I speak or live truth (I may not have to be a jerk, although I prefer Sutton’s word). Truth, even when spoken in love or attended by kindness will frequently enrage or wound the hearer, sometimes even the regenerate hearer. Jesus said the truth will make you free, and also that he came to bring a sword.

Brian, you said, “A grace which doesn't humble, isn't from God…Only God's Grace is irresistible…mine and yours is not! There is a danger in offering a "grace" which truly isn't from God.” Man, that bit about a “grace which doesn’t humble” pulled me up short, and I’m guessing I’ll be thinking about that for a while.

Yeah, the bogus “grace” of Oprah is essentially a marketing and control tool, which is why she’s so well paid for it. She performs a service for her handlers, and is allowed to imagine that she, also, has been elevated to the rank of “handler.” Her grace or “philosophy” or “thought” is the equivalent of the Jerry Springer Show’s “drama,” and targets an audience similarly devoid of spiritual life.

Gandhi, on the other hand, was all about discipline, bringing a law to bear against the law of Britain that ultimately helped achieve a political goal. That the man’s philosophy was informed to some extent by the life of Christ doesn’t make it a form of grace, because it was Christ who lived law without sin. Which doesn’t make Gandhi sinless, but does speak to the fact that there is a power in the law that has an effect in the world, even if it has no salvific effect.

Brian, you wrote, “Even the countless "believers" who took the "grace" of Christ as "saviour" without changing at all possess an imaginary grace which isn't real….”

Paul, I think, wrote that to some body of believers in the ancient world that “It is Christ who works within us to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Surely the Christian doesn’t transform himself, but is himself transformed by the renewing of his mind – that is, the Gospel, the life, teaching, death, resurrection of Christ become the organizing principle of the human being reborn to life eternal.

You also wrote, and I’m going to have to think about this for a while, too, “for a Grace which comes from God always causes repentance and change! There is no other kind of Grace God offers…” Some of the stuff Mike McK posted on this website has made me think more seriously about repentance than I have for years. You appear destined likewise to make me think more seriously about grace as it relates to repentance. I’ve never heard of Metzger, but I’ll look him up on Amazon.

What I get from the old red guy (I’ve seen him in person, and his skin has a decidedly reddish cast to it) is that he’s trying to tell Christians who’ve either grown up in or bought in to the small “c” christian subculture found primarily in North America, but is exported to the world by North American missionaries, that God isn’t angry with them anymore. That God doesn’t apply his wrath to his children. He applied it to his son, the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world (that is, it was his intent all along), and spent it there on Calvary.

And sometimes SB seems to bend over backwards to show his non-fundamentalist or more liberal radio show guests that he agrees with them on some core issues without addressing some of their goofier issues, but the purpose of the interview show seems to be to show a secular audience that Christianity and Christians are more diverse in their opinions and ministries than mainstream media would have that audience believe.

One of the psalmists, perhaps David – I don’t remember, wrote of God, “You have set my feet in a broad place.” That idea seems to inform the radio and other ministries Brown runs – that God’s children don’t require a “hedge around the Torah,” but, to use a naïve analogy, that God’s given them the entire yard to play in.

To be fair, I don’t think I’ve ever heard Steve Brown address God’s dealing with Christians who behave in ways that merit what I can only regard as punishment, for instance, Annanias and Sapphira, but he may speak to those issues on the Key Life broadcast, and may have thoroughly and ably dealt with the matter at some time in the past and just not returned to it for awhile.

Brian, thanks for forcing me to think and to write less flippantly than is usual for me here.

Brian February 19th, 2008

No Charles…..what I am saying is….the love and grace "man" has to offer…is always conditional!! Regardless of how much grace you may feel God has "allowed" you to show, it will always comes up short! It is evident here just in the writings of so many here on this site. Remember….we are to speak the "truth" in love….and so we try….yes while there is Grace for your "grace"….don't suppose that just b/c you believe it or try to show it, gives you any more "freedom" in Christ than those "in Christ" who don't! The freedom spoken of here is really a transition….from service and slavery to sin…..to a choice by God to have us serve Him…..(which wasn't even our idea)….you were bought with a very high price indeed. We have laxed the Holiness of God in a Post Modern (Roman style) paganistic society…and it's cost the church dearly in terms of how we reflects the true nature of Christ!

You adently defend SB and speak protectively of many who post on this blog…..funny how it is though…..grace for all but as soon as someone "crosses the line"….it's nature tends to all fall apart! This is what I mean about grace being skin deep…..hey, I appreciate your desire to defend, protect, speak out for what you think is true….I respect you more for doing so in fact…..this is exactly how iron sharpens iron, real change can only take place through the fire, through the battle, so many of Paul's examples speak of competition, examples in sports, boxing is a battle of stamina, strength, agility, courage and passion! The pursuit of rightousness as a result of God's changing Grace should be all the rage!!! But instead, it's been replaced by a pick and choose theology and it's a shame the frozen chosen provides a myriad of choices!! Ok, so there's Grace…..now what??? At some point here….that Grace had better make a difference….and if anyone here is going to suggest that it shouldn't…..(which I have witnessed on this board already) it proves how "low" a view of scripture they really have.

Charles…..no one's talking about going back to the yoke of the law, or taking away "your grace" from you…..it is about promoting a balanced view of sin, accountability, salvation, grace, love, and truth. Please don't think I am attempting to insult anyone….more so a challenge. A challenge to "tell the truth" as Bruce Metzger's boook so effectively articulates. While God afflicts the comfortable, He also comforts the afflicted…but all too often, we're not doing enough to warrant that "comfort"! It is my position that SB and company provide a "caricature" view of the gospel in an attempt to be seeker sensitive to get folks on board so they will interact…."get to the playground"……my suggestion would be to tell a lost generation who has no clue what sin is……that it offends a Holy and Rightous God, who holds them accountable….and the "hope" of Grace….. it might surprise you even more how much they will engage……as opposed to the feel good jesting of sin which enslaves these people who, when they stop by…..leave feeling they're all ok!! Boy do they love SB now!! What lost soul wouldn't embrace all the anecdotal punch lines telling them their sin isn't so bad afterall!! It can be witnessed all over the blog. Hey, I get grace…I love that I have been chosen, like Paul, vs my natural will, to love obeying Him, to care about this in a world where we are told obedience is optional….this is why I call it Neo Grace….and I think it's here to stage the setting for the synthetic church to come. Am I accusing SB of purely teaching this??? Certainly not. But I do think he does place a skewed view of "more grace than truth" in many of the points he reactionarilly rallies to make. This is partly why he is so "controversial" and he knows it…..he relies on the controversy much like radio DJ;s rely on Shock Jock methods to keep listeners listening….and it does make things interesting. Sometimes, the desire to make things different, winds up doing just that…..and that's where it er's. I love Steve. One would never think that a message of Grace could wind up causing something more than was intended. It is my assessment that this message does just that, and will result in a reformed version of what Joel Osteen has…..which couldn't be further from Steve's intentions, or come from his desire to please God….as I genuinely know he does! He is under Grace…..while truth is yet always refining us….God will never take us, where his Grace will not keep us!!

Brian February 19th, 2008

Christov…..thanks for thinking big….I find your iron sharpening!! Are you Bulgarian or Russian?? Spent some time over there a while back. What a humbling privilege to handle so great a grace and truth which will always be purer than it's messengers. I take this so serously….but not b/c I fear failure….out of a love and respect for the importance and power of accurate teaching….as well as the responsibility scripture warns about it. I appreciate what you posted….our will is most definitely involved in the transfromation of sactification…..and not something that we should be "waiting" to just happen to us!! One + God = a majority….and so does a good blend of grace and truth!!

Christov February 19th, 2008

Hey Brian,

Actually I'm an ethnic Italian/Irish on my dad's side, and and German/Scottish (Tennessean) on my mom's side, grew up in So.Cal. Christov's just a moniker I chose back in the nineties for my first email address. I was trying to seem more interesting than I really was, but I got used to the name and kept it.

It is humbling to contemplate, write about, and discuss God's word.

The only thing I would add to our previous exchange is that the scriptures of the New Testament provide the reader with a number of metaphors, I will call them, to aid in understanding what it means for the believer to be "in Christ" and to be a "new creation." So we are given church as a whole is the bride of Christ, church as a whole is the body of Christ, individual believers as adopted sons of the Father, individual believers as soldiers of Christ serving at the expense of another, servants, bondslaves, living stones, those who have been legally redeemed, and so forth.

My best guess is that God doesn't expect all of us to identify equally with all of that, all the time. And I say all that to say this - slavish obedience to Christ or the tenets the Christian extrapolates from the texts of the Old and New Testaments isn't the whole story for the redeemed, nor is taking on the role of older brother in relation to those who come to Christ after us or from a background different than our own.

Anyway, bro, that's my two cents. I've gotta get ready for work, long drive ahead of me and two scheduled for testing at Franklin.

Erik February 19th, 2008

Once again, I'm impressed by the tone and clarity of this discussion. You make great points Brian. Thanks for disagreeing in such an agreeable way.

I will say, that if I had my way, I wish this exchange weren't happening in my SBE Program Lineup post since it's way off that topic, but, meh…what the heck. Getting people to stay on topic is like trying to nail Jello to the wall anyway. I'm just glad everyone's having a good time and playing so nice. Thanks again.

Charles February 19th, 2008

Me too. Thank you Brian for extending grace to me and I hope I haven't gotten too over the top.

I admit, I am fond of Steve and this ministry and get defensive when he or the ministry is attacked. I am not sure there will ever be a meeting of minds on this topic, save God intervening with will(s), but the discussion is good.

With regards to a balanced view of sin and accountability…ironically, my list of sins is probably much bigger than yours, when it comes to this issue. I think religious people engage in sin while doing religious things. Someone with a bottle of gin and a Hustler is usually considered someone who excersizes 'cheap grace' but I consider pride and ego disguised as religious activity in the same way I view the guy with the Tankeray and Hustler. There is no difference. The folks I read that disagree with Steve are usually charicaturing sin in the latter sense and completely miss the former. Grace isn't just for when we "fall" but when we fall, which is probably most of the day, particularly when doing religious things.

Accountability is a good thing, but like all other religious things, it many times turns into something sinful too. An accountability program can be good, but because of our messed up nature, it can turn into something Satanic at the turn of a dime, and usually, it happens when the religious part is maintained like it, not His Spirit, is the magic elixer.

I worry about religious programs about the same way you would worry about drinking beer in front of alcoholic brothers and sisters….knowing what I know about myself and others, they both lead to no good.

As for my lack of grace once the 'line is crossed'…I admit my grace is conditional and only if you agree with me. But I freely admit it, nail it to the cross and ask for prayer that I can get better. But because I can't excersize that kind of grace to others, has nothing to do with my freedom in Christ and the fact God is no longer angry with me about anything.

Does that give me license?

Absolutely.

Will I abuse it?

More than likely.

Does that mean I am living in sin and need to repent?

You bet it does.

But so are you. We just pick our poison differently. I have just decided to stop pretending I am good when I am not, and work on real change, rather than window dressing. I am nowhere close to getting there, but I am certain I am in the right direction.

Brian February 21st, 2008

Hi Charles,
Hmmmm…….I am trying to find something that you wrote that ties in with the basic premise I have made. Instead, it just seems emotionally defensive, contrasting points which have little connection with me, or the things I have said, but hey that's cool….if you want to express your feelings about the things you mentioned, you really are "scandalously free" to do so. I do have a question for you personally though….1. Does God's Grace in your life result in affecting you to live a more holy, less holy, or does it remain unaffected in your life? The reason I ask, is the latter portion of what you wrote would be just as valid to an atheist, agnostic, nominal churchgoer trusting in the "church" or even their own good works, …..the non believer is also aware of sin…..absolutely takes license and abuses, sometimes knows they are living in it and occasionally knows of their need of repentance….the only difference between the good intentions of those saved and those unsaved?? The power to overcome sin…and real Grace for what they can't!! Those who take comfort in a license to sin, have every right to doubt the security of their own faith….and the example of lifestyle which they represent, will probably make other believers wonder as well. Hey, we're all accountable. Even Jesus told several of those of whom He interacted, "Go and sin no more"……based on what you said….it sounds like you'd rather run with the 3 free sins offered by Brown, than allow God's Grace to effect a real change in your life. You've already been empowered to overcome sin, and experience true sanctification! …..what Christians aren't willing to do, is create discipline in their walk with God, they'd rather Him be resident not President. The sooner you realize you don't have a license to sin, the faster you will discipline (word comes from "Disciple") yourself to obey the Holy Spirit who's fruit yields "self control" and a host of other "power" that isn't just "self effort or works to attain being better.

What I hear continuously on this site, is this kind of logic: Since all christians struggle with continous sin, and rather than continue the struggle like Paul does in Romans 7, many have embraced a belief system not seen exemplified in Scripture. so, it's seems easier to just create a theology which makes folks feel a bit more comfortable while they sin…..since, everyone's does it! Guilt free…..hey…even be happy if you know it and clap your hands!! Sure, there are plenty of people playing a church game of pride, works, (notice you will never see the scripture speak of Works of the Spirit?? It always says "fruit of the Spirit") and to these folks you are responding in reaction to…..to that, I agree wholeheartedly on the other side…..they are wrong. But don't fall for something that also isn't true on the other extreme….it's a dangerous thing to create a message which encourages people to sin…even if in jest. Hey, there's nothing wrong with being "good" if God has inspired and empowered you to make you that way". Stop judging folks with real change as being phoney…..There really is such a thing as sanctification…..just b/c some folks don't experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Since it comes from God, one can never claim it as a work of their own…..but the change is very real, and it can be everlasting!!! Christians, get over yourselves, stop being so narcisistic…get out of the mud…..b/c you can!! There's nothing cheap about this as it is His power that sustains the changes!!

But then again, Why change at all when you've got a license to sin??? Is this why Christ died for you?? This is a great example of the impact of Neo Grace on one's view of sin. No Charles, while I absolutely sin, I don't pick my poison, I don't have a "license" to sin, and I am getting closer and closer through sanctification. I am truly thankful to God for the real growth in my life!!! Thanks for the "conditional" grace though……it's a shame that we don't see more of God in how we actually live, so that the church would mirror His Glory……but even if it did…something tells me it would just sound too phoney…and get written off as window dressing….and that's a real shame!

Brian February 21st, 2008

Having a license to "sin" is like having a "right" to sin…..and nobody has the "right" to be "wrong"….even if Christ covers you for it.

Charles February 21st, 2008

Well, I realize I am not the greatest communicator in the world. Sorry for that.

I'm not trying to tell you that you aren't getting better either. Who am I to know that? You are much more devoted than I ever will be.

I just want you to know that up front.

What I am saying is that sin is much more pervasive than we even can know….and religious activity isn't necessarily a safe harbor.

I will say that in some areas, I am better. But to be honest, I am not really all that on top of my position in the sanctification process….and the more I think about it, the more profoundly defeated I get….sort of like not being able to dance for looking at my feet.

So, I have decided to stop looking at my feet and simply trust Him with everything. Does that mean I will live like the devil? I don't think so. The difference between me and the unbeliever is Him, and even if there were more differences than that, that is really all I need to consider.

I hope that makes sense and I really do hope you can accept my apology for any thing I have written that was abusive or condemning to you.

Yes, my grace is conditional. Thank God His isn't. Otherwise, we wouldn't stand a chance.

Brian February 21st, 2008

You're okay by me Charles…..no offense taken, and likewise….none personally intended. I just think many Christians are being left with the wrong impression about Grace. The concentration of forgiveness of sin is important, we all need that, some I suppose need to let it sink in a bit more, but the effect of grace to repentance can make one truly more rightous also…..and instead of conceding this to be true, some would rather invalidate "rightousness" wherever it's mentioned and pass it off as some type of pharasaical pride or "self" rightousness….when, the change was real change…ie. a "God thing"!

Remember, it wasn't the adherance to the law that made Christ object so vehemently toward by the Pharasees…it was their twisting of the Scriptures and adding to what God already had written, which got these guys in hot water….they WERE self rightous!! I think God wants all Christians to experience "real" freedom from sin….not just self effort, or forcing mental tricks to "not think about furry white elephants" …..I'm talking real battle "wins" over sin. This is the true hallmark of Christian living and instead of giving up and resigning certain sin to "slide"….I'm saying it's worth it NOT to give up the struggle….ie Romans 7 till heaven! On the one hand, you have someone telling you, you're not going to win some of those battles, so you're better off relaxing in the "grace"…..that's really a substitute for relaxing in "sin"…..and I don't buy it. It's not taught in Scripture, and it corrupts the true nature of grace extended to us…..which is given to us to help us obey, love, as well as forgive and be forgiven. If we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit with our sin, why shouldn't we feel some of that grief as well?? Hey….maybe it's just me….I think I've overextended the point way beyond my welcome. Keep fighting the good fight Charles!!

Charles February 22nd, 2008

You haven't overworn any welcome. This is a great conversation, even though I struggle to make sense some times. Again, this is good stuff. Don't run off.

I've heard Steve preach about the Romans 7 struggle as a good thing. Matter of fact, I have heard him teach on that several times…that the struggle should give cause for rejoice, as paradoxical as that sounds. My struggle is a great sign.

I have never heard him teach that we abandon the struggle in Romans 7. I guess I can't see the problems in Steve's teaching compared with what you are saying.

Chemical Erik February 22nd, 2008

I had to search for this when I heard about the 30 day sex challenge at Relevant Church. Can't say I think this a good way to promote Jesus, but it would be interesting. It's also in Florida, so you should be able to arrange a live interview with one of the key people. Here's a link to their site:
http://relevantchurch.com/

Christov February 23rd, 2008

Hey Brian, you were thinking of Will, not Bruce, Metzger.

Bruce Metzger is older than Steve Brown, and actually may not still reside in the land of the living. On the other hand, Bruce Metzger appears to have written a scholarly volume on the development of the canon that's going on my Amazon wish list.

Will Metzger's volume entitled "Tell the Truth, etc," if the excerpts the Amazon Online Reader presented me with can be trusted, appears informed by that high view of clergy/ordination/"calling"-in-a-christian-sub-cultural-sense that so irks the snot out of me and with which I vehemently disagree. Sorry - that rhyme was totally unintended. That first page nearly hooked me, but what followed was difficult for me, for reasons that rhyme, supra.

Personally, it would probably be a good exercise of Christian discipline to try reading "Tell" while separating value from what I regard as non-biblical subcultural dross. I say that seriously, such an exercise would probably be God-honoring and also good for me.

Christov February 23rd, 2008

I love forced columnar justification. It sounds so theological.

Brian February 23rd, 2008

Thanks Christov for editing the correct "Metzger"….it's too bad I don't have the ability like you to edit prior posts…..or else I'd be rearranging a few of my "prior" comments too! Guess I have to rely on others "grace" since I cannot edit my posts. For ex…..your above (Feb. 15th) post which concluded, "showing grace for all types of sin except jerks" was so conveniently edited out….making my response to what you originally stated sound meaningless and irrelevant. I know your statement was not made personally toward me, but it's nice to have the ability to "rewrite" or take back what one "writes"…..but since doing so sort of "invalidates the truth" of what others can respond to…..it's clear that "truth" really does trump grace, otherwise you'd have left it alone. Hmmmm….or perhaps Steve or Erik recommended you doing that?? I suppose it was a good move on your part anyhow. ..although you probably would like to add it back in now. : ))

Maybe try reading Metzger's book before judging it by it's "cover" or thumbing through a few "customer" reviews…..you might just find some truth in the "irking snot" afterall. We could then trade off book reviews perhaps….and post them right here??

Thanks again for the correction(s). : ))

Another rendition of "selective grace" at work….where all the "real" sinners get 3 free ones….and the rest trying "not" to sin get "hung" by the jury. NIce of you to be appointed….doesn't it sort of invalidate the whole Grace to all thing??

Brian February 23rd, 2008

Hey Charles,
Thanks for making me "feel" welcome. It's clear I don't fit in very well here, as a "Truth and Grace" guy. The Romans 7 point was more on the principle of "struggling with sin" just as Paul did….(are we any better than he?? Not). When Steve makes a big ruckus about no longer "struggling with Smoking"…..instead of "giving up" just as he has done, He knows not what God may do through him to assist him to quit. But if it's no longer a Romans 7 issue for Steve, or for anyone of us with what we struggle with, then we've invalidated what Scripture says to do! It's the choice to create a "Neo grace" which literally invalidates the struggle with sin that disturbs me with Steve.

Charles February 23rd, 2008

Hey, I meant it. Besides, you want to struggle, struggle here with us.

Like I said, I have heard Steve preach about the Romans 7 struggle and never got a struggle-free message from him.

The struggle is part of the confirmation.

Acheiving perfection this side of death is something I have personally given up on. But that has no bearing on my desire to be better. Nor does it mean that I stopped the struggle. I couldn't quit that even if I wanted to.

Smoking is really petty compared to alot of iless visible sins that I have yet to begin struggling with. In fact, I would prefer to take up smoking if I could be victorious over even one of them.

It's ok to be down on us. But give Him some credit. I may not be much to you, but you have no idea where I have come from and would be impressed if you did.

Christov February 23rd, 2008

Hey mon,

I haven't edited any of these posts and don't have the ability to do so. Shoot, I don't even know how to make my text appear as bold or italicized. I asked Erik to yank a couple of things I'd posted in response to a Tony Campolo blog in order to rewrite so that I made some sense (if only to myself) and EG kindly did so.

I don't recall anything like that on this thread. I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't think I would've forgotten because it would have involved writing and sending an explanatory email to Erik AND feeling lousy about making the imposition.

Possibly Chemical Erik's post appeared between your comment and mine (of the 15th) after you posted, because I don't recall having seen it there at the time I first saw yours. I know sometimes the appearance of my own posts have been delayed when they've had several links in them, having been caught in this site's spamfilter.

On the other hand, I really would sometimes like to rescind some of the goofier comments I've posted. Too much of the time my authorial tone is either (to use term by which another brother described his own "voice") Spock-like or inappropriately enthusiastic, like one of the first-graders my wife teaches.

Soooo brotherman, maybe it's you who's really wishing he could rewrite for posterity, eh? I'm gently ribbing you, again not trying to pick a fight.

I do need to give Metzger a fair reading, but I really want to read his grandfather's book on the canon. Probably the only way we could exchange reviews here would be if Steve Brown Etc. actually has the guy in (Will, not Bruce) for an interview. Could possibly take it to the Key Life forums, or another one of your choosing.

Finally, I like you and think you fit in fine here. You seem to be a thoughtful, intelligent Christian who's interested in the free exchange of thoughts and ideas about the faith. But then, I'm a relative newcomer, and so many of those who post here have a long history of interaction with one another. As a guy in early middle age without children who's still trying to figure out what he should be doing with his life and beginning to think it doesn't much matter to God, I think I'm the sore thumb around here.

Charles February 24th, 2008

We're all sore thumbs. He particularly calls for sore thumbs and is quite fond of them, without consulting the annointed.

Brian February 24th, 2008

Well Christov, somebody romoved that statement from your post…..Oh well, you're under grace, what's the big deal. The desire for getting things "right" doesn't serve for posterity sake, I couldn't care less what you or anyone else on this board thinks of me, it's all about God, and doing things "His" way. Sometimes we forget that the Prodigal in Scripture is "back home" and probably working just as hard as the brother who never left. It's an easy thing to say that the brother who went off foolishly would probably feel more forgiven than the other brother….but alas….let's not write off the other brother

Brian February 24th, 2008

contd…..it's too bad the story doesn't continue past the prodigal's "return home"…but if "both" of these brothers were "saved" (remember, both were self rightous) I would say you'd be better off in the shoes of the brother who never strayed! Sin has earth shattering consequences, creates guilt…(b/c you're guilty), sin can create false gospels, guide people into false teachings, ruin churches. Sin is evil. It will drive you to drinking, smoking, etc….I tell Non Christians they are better off trying "not" to sin since they will be judged purely on the basis of "their own" works (not Christ's like we are)….so…work carefully….there just may be levels of hell just as there are in Heaven. The motivation for Christians to "stop sinning" is…it pleases God, You now have been enabled to "reduce sin" through disclipline, time, and sanctification, and sin ruins the Christian's ability to think, act, live clearly….not to mention it greives the Holy Spirit. Steve B. does not go into this at all, as he doesn't see a place for exhortation in a life of "grace". My being glad I don't process grace this way, doens't make me a Pharisee on truth…far from it actually…..We all need a kick in the pants every once in a while….and it's too bad a grace has been created that invalidates the need for doing that. He takes the discipline out the Christian Walk…and leaves many folks wallowing in the mire.

Christov February 24th, 2008

I truly don't know what statement you're talking about. The short comment under my moniker posted on 15th appears to be what I remember posting.

You may not be, but you "sound" really peeved, and I don't know what that's about, at least in re: this thread.

Steve Brown doesn't pretend to be having Internet or radio church. If you've heard him talk much on Key Life, and (although you'll have to listen harder to discern it) on Steve Brown Etc., you've heard him make statements indicating he's pretty bought-into the institutional manifestation of church. That is, going to a building, singing songs, listening to somebody talk, passively receiving the "means of grace," submitting one's self to the rule and authority of the congregation's ruling elders, high view of ordination/clergy, and so forth. My point in saying that is to say that Brown would probably suggest that his listeners go and do likewise thereby getting the exhortation, instruction, and discipleship he never claims to dispense.

I differ from Brown in that I don't think the North American model of "church" as I've described it is a very good "place" to get exhortation, instruction, discipleship, or even to encounter the God for whom that model purports to speak.

Well, bro, that's my dos centavos mas. Suffice it to say that I'm harder on myself than you are on me, and probably somewhat rougher than necessary under grace. Which has no salvific or sanctifying effect, it's just the way it is until the Sovereign God finishes the work he began in me.

I'm through with this exchange.

Chris

Brian February 24th, 2008

Dear Chris,
I'm not peeved….and if it wasn't you that posted that comment, not a big deal…..all I know is that it was there at one point, and since I refered to you in the post on the 16th, I just thought it was yours….from your reference to the nonChristian listed in the link. Anyhow, we're all done. I would beg to differ on your last point about being somewhat hard on yourself….having no sanctifying effect…..honestly, as long as you are clear about the grace….and I think you are….there's nothing wrong at all with being self disciplined about how you live the Christian life….we are full participants in cooperation with grace, and plays an intergral part in the process by all means!!
Otherwise, why would Paul talk at all about "rewards" for Faithfullness in Heaven?? I respect you more for a hard struggle…..never give up, and always give the glory to God for the progress!! I'm not mad, just was wondering where that comment that I responded to on the 16th went (and who made it) and by all means I accept the fact that if you say it wasn't you, I will no longer push the issue. We're done with it.

Christov February 24th, 2008

Cool. No problem. I recognize my knee jerked a little, and a little too quickly. Forgive and move on, eh? Thanks, Chris

Elizabeth K February 25th, 2008

Hey guys,
Haven't read for awhile and just sifted through all this dialogue. Don't get sanctification and justification confused. We are saved by grace through faith. . . it is a gift. A question for you: (especially Brian) When will you be good enough? Are you working your way to heaven? And concerning the example of the prodigal son: We focus way too much on the sons. Who was faithful? The Father.
Good day guys - God bless,
Elizabeth

Brian February 25th, 2008

Hello Elizabeth,
Read through a bit more carefully, and you will see this is a "within" the confines of grace debate. Neither of us are debating salvation by grace….We both hold that Justification involves the imputuation of the rightousness of Christ's perfect life (We are actually saved by works…"His" works not ours) and the removal of sin by His death as the perfect sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins of all God's elect. Sanctification is the process by which God works in and through a believer's life resulting in a more Christ-like life (Holy, loving, obedient, more self-less, etc) over time.

These two 2 byproducts of Salvation you mentioned could also be refered to as the "already, not yet". Someone much smarter than I am coined that, and I feel sure someone even smarter might be kind enough to tell us who did. Justification is a work of God apart from man……..sanctification, on the other hand does indeed involve the will, the mind, heart, and the body of a person! A new believer is now the temple of the Holy Spirit….and cooperation isn't just optional, Paul describes it as an essential obligation for the believer to be living in the Spirit in the newness of life.

Steve makes a great point about everyone being self-rightous. That's true….but so was Paul, so were the disciples, so is Steve, and I am too….so is every person. Seems to me there are many things we are unable to do ourselves without the help of God, however, one thing He does tell us we can do …..is to humble ourselves….(lest He does this for us…and I'd personally not want to be around to experience that. I get that. What I don't get, is that in order to observe others self righteousness , one must also be "standing" apart from those in question"…..thus making the indentifying of "sin in others" also a self-righteous task as Steve defines it. So….it takes one to know one. While the observation that everyone is self righteous is correct, it doesn't really tell us anything new. It also doesn't stand that all apparent forms of a person's righteousness comes from "self" and can therefor be so "easily invalidated" and could quite possibly result in a righteous motivation, action, attitide, and thus quite pleasing to God…from God. Sometimes we can go on and on examining ourselves in such melancholy terms so that we forget that Christ is in the process of perfecting us. It isn't self-perfection, but in case I am fearful of doing anything….(lest I am Self-righteous in doing so)….I become a handicap to my own sanctification. Hello….it's a level playing field of self-righteous people……so much so that way too many folks are "afraid' of trying to be right!

So they just give up and "relax" in the feel good of Grace….with fear of failure no where in sight, free of any obligation to live the Christian life….."Storm free".

R.C. Sproul states,

"Instead of preaching about mankind's depravity and the truth that citizenship in the kingdom of God comes only by the imputation of Christ's righteousness, we hear about a powerless and insipid Creator and the cheap grace He lavishes upon all. Secondly, because the church has failed to preach the biblical Gospel, our evangelism has too often introduced people to the wrong Jesus. We are told that "Jesus can give us our best life now" or that "He wants to be our best friend," and not that He is our Savior from enslavement to sin and the righteous judgment of God. As such, He demands a life of costly discipleship (Luke 14:25-33)."

If all we hear is grace alone, and you're ok…..how do you know youi've truly received the "gift"?? Does it even matter that folks who say "they've got it" and screw up the church with their sin make Grace abound all the more for those who should know better?? Would I dare be so bold to call in question or would that be exerting self rightousness so that I'm the one who needs to "stop judging" and just let sin take it's ugly course??

While many are concerned only with what they "don't have to do" to receive God's Grace….they stop there at the free gift!! Never going further into a life of discipleship, evangelism, studying Scripture, or even prayer. Would you care to convince me that a faith without works is NOT dead?? Teaching a grace alone by faith was never meant to be a means to an end….but only the beginning of something to follow…..

Elizabeth, this isn't about being good enough…..or working our way to heaven…..I just see a multitude of so called Christians who really fit the bill in the passage of Scripture in Mathew 7…..and that makes me wonder, how many of these people have embraced the grace offered of an unbiblical synthetic Jesus? But hey….it's just my self righteousness that's getting in the way….and I should just repent of everything I've ever said……

Brian February 25th, 2008

So…in other words…..there's a difference between understanding a teaching with a balance of Truth and Grace vs. one which causes the "tilt" button to go on…..in either direction….if you look at History….Today's reformed churches are in peril of losing their base…..an acceptance of the church as in a "post modern state", is a good indication of how present day teachers view how they will go about reaching a spiritually dead generation…..I call it….reaping what we've sown.

animoniuos February 27th, 2008

A man born not into the church, hurt by christians, his faith betrayed, turns not to wicked deeds, but to righteous works, in protest of their wickedness. Not out of belief in God, but out of love for the poor, the sick, the dieing. Of which christians would not do, even with their claims of faith. Did not Jesus speak of sons of a man asked to work in his vineyard? The first said yes, and did nothing. The second defied and said no, yet repented, and did his father's work. Who is the more righteous? If a man does not profess God, out of the evil done by christians, are they not offending the little ones and turning them away? With Jesus sleeping under every bridge in every city. They wait for the time when the last shall be first and the first shall be last. They turn him away when he knocks. They do not feed him when he's hungry. They do not cover his shame when he is naked. But the man, he has compassion. Is he not more justified before God? Does God not judge justly between men? Will he condemn a righteous man? Or let oppression go unrequited? Will he not bring the poor to justice?
Is a man's righteousness in the letter of the law? Discected the way the Bible is, is it not the Hypocrisy of the Pharisees? Heaping heavy burdens on men, and lending no help to succeed.
Spiritual vampires. The merciful shall obtain mercy. By their own words will they recieve mercy. And by their own words will they be condemned.

Brian February 27th, 2008

And for some strange reason……the point of this animoniuos post….is…well…..still somewhat animoniuos. Steve Brown folks talk about something resembling the garb of religiousity…..well?? here ya go….I couldn't have "un" said this any better myself…..even Jesus wouldn't even sound like this….sorry dude, your point again?? You get 3 free more tries…..(according to Steve). Try not to sound like the book of Revelation unless you would like to quote from it…..There are plenty of folks out there providing a "Social Gospel" which does indeed help people physically…..but does nothing to feed people spiritually, (just ask Tony Campolo about his social gospel), nor challenge them to stop playing, "the victim" of injustice. In reality, It's still "Just" that everyone should be in Hell at this very moment (without a blanket, without food, without the "benefits" of a God who chooses to display His Mercy on whom He chooses….and being patient enough to allow those who synthetically "pretend" to be His flock, and are always present for show and tell. The righteous man is only this way b/c God chose to "make him that way" ……Compassion is only "righteous" in the eyes of God when it is done by, for, and through Him and for His purposes. Finally, I sure wish all these folks who say they are "bruised by Christians, hurt by the Church, (perhaps some are even hurt…are really just convicted of the truth) but lay blame on others for their own sin…..time to come out of that self -righteous closet and just admit that you aren't so "deserving" of better treatment…..especially when the scriptures declare you should be receiving the wrath of God! Pooof!!….smile you're on God's Candid Camera!!

Charles February 28th, 2008

They probably would be more apt to come out of that closet if they saw us come out first, IMO.

Even if they didn't, it would still be good for us.

animoniuos February 28th, 2008

What is considered righteousness in American Christianity are things like not cursing, not smoking, not drinking, not taking part in sexual sins, avoiding unedifying music, movies, books, magazines, or websites, avoiding situations, people, or places where temptations may be encountered, wearing appropriate clothing or jewelry, or other apperance issues, a quiet time, a belief in the inerrancy of scripture, daily prayer, diligent inductive study of scripture, confronting the sins of others and exorting them to righteousness, serving in the church, being faithfull in attendace, tithing, defending the truth, witnessing at every opportunity, leading others to the Lord, and discipling them in the way, etc. Anyone who grew up in the church is familiar with this list. New Christians recieve this list very shortly after conversion and baptism. All of this can be accomplished without love, joy, peace, patience, kindness or faith. None of which can be sustained healthily without. How can one have love if one does not know love? Forgiveness with strings attatched is no forgiveness at all. New believers break under the load. I've seen it over and over. How can you have joy without first having love? How can you have peace without joy? There is no patience without peace. No desire to be good, or kind. Is there then motivation for self control aside from fear of the wrath of God, or an infinite indebtedness as slaves to the Gospel as long as we live?

Charles February 28th, 2008

Actually, those are great points. Someone once said you can only love if you are loved and you can only love to the extent you are loved.

Charles February 28th, 2008

But it is His love that transforms and makes us better. We tend to try going through the motions and end up putting the cart before the horse. But that always ends in disappointment.

If I went and bought flowers for my wife and when asked why, I told her I am supposed to do that, I would get a mean look or a kick in the groin. That's because it was done out of some mechanically obligatory motive, rather than out of real love. I think our striving to be sinless can be like that if not careful.

Tim February 28th, 2008

This discussion really hinges on how you define sin. Is it a specific action? Or is it motive? I believe the Bible teaches that sin is about improper motives that pervade every action we take.

This seems clear with something like murder: taking someone's life is ok under certain circumstances (when God told the Israelites to purge the promise land) and not ok under others (obviously the commandment that tells us not to murder). In each case the action is the same - taking someone's life.

Or what about adultery? Again, obviously an action sin, but then Jesus says that if you even lust you commit adultery. So what then is the sin? Is it an action? Or a thought? Or is it a motive? A disease which corrupts every action? Did Jesus say this just to give us another set of actions (thoughts) that we must not undertake? Or was He getting at something deeper - namely that sin goes so deep that it corrupts our every action and thought…

Since it seems too easy to point out what wrong behavior is, then what is right behavior? Is it giving to the poor? What if you feel a sense of happiness for doing so? What if you feel a tinge of pride that you've helped someone? Does that make helping the poor then a sin?

Or is everything we do hopelessly corrupted?

Did Jesus come to teach us that our sin goes deeper than we ever imagine to get us to try harder? Or was it to make us give up our petty struggle in the face of such a pervasive enemy within us? Was it to empower us to believe that we can overcome sin while still in these mortal bodies? Or was it to assure us that even tho we cannot defeat sin, He did, and He has purchased us to bring us that victory, not the other way around?

animoniuos February 28th, 2008

Word

Brian February 28th, 2008

Charles,
One can only "come out of the closet" if God chooses to open the door for you and pull you through….regardless of what you or I do….never base what is true or not on another person's "example"……the message will always be purer than the messenger…..

Tim, excellent points. All of this refers to the "nature" of sin in all people. There is nothing wrong for a believer who keeps a tension of both….that sin is wrong…and ought to be avoided. We owe gratitude for the ability to keep ourselves from sin to God….it is "His" righteousness working in and through us which allows us to obey and be pleasing in His sight and it is also God's Grace which sustains us when we fail. The real problem with Christians today is that they want the benefits of the Grace of God, but don't want to be responsible to make any sacrifices in their worldy idol worship. ….they literally live….just like the world according to Studies. On one hand they want a Jesus they can fit into their "busy" Schedule…..on the other, keeping up with daily doses of lustful Worldly idols to suit any and every "worldy need". Christian marriages end in Divorce just as much, Christians enjoy the same lustful "fantasy" tv shows as atheists and agnostics, Teen sex among Christians is virtually identical to that of non believers….leaving us to the only thing that remotely seems to describe the Christian life….that Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven….so why should they even try….their under grace right??? It isn't the fact that Christians sin…..it's the fact that they Love sin so much they choose to give up the struggle, they don't feel they shouldn't have to give any of it up….just to please a righteous and Holy God who really did call them to be different. Hey….I suppose if Satan can't make you sin….He'll make you busy! I think the Church needs to be humbled….as well as weeded out…….may the sower toss some weed and feed across the churches in America.

tim February 29th, 2008

You're right in saying that Christians have the same amount of problems as non-Christians, with divorce rate and teen pregnancy, etc. I think we would disagree tho about why that is. It sounds like you're saying that basically most people aren't serious enough about their faith, and that for lack of a better term they need to get their butts in gear. And that because they aren't serious enough about it, they are essentially slapping God in the face.

Honestly tho, I think it's more about people being discouraged. Discouraged from church strife, discouraged from personal problems, and discouraged by the fact that they think God is grieved because they don't live up to other Christians or to what He wants for them. I don't know about you, but if I live in the idea that my sin might be grieving God, I want to give up. If I think that other Christians aren't grieving God but I am, that really makes me want to give up. That doesn't motivate me to want to do anything better.

The only thing that has motivated me to want to love God more or try to behave better is when I sense in a profound way that God does in fact love me and chooses not to hold all my failures against me. I don't think most Christians feel loved, either by God or by other Christians, and most don't feel safe. It's hard to want to behave in a Godly manner when if it feels obvious that no matter how hard you try you'll still fail in some way.

That's the dilemma we all face. I mean, our failures will overwhelm us all at one point or another, and there is a time when a "suck it up" and "get serious" message just pours salt in the wounds and turns people away. I feel like I've had several lifetimes worth of "get serious" messages, but rarely have I felt truly loved by a Christian's message…and I can sure tell you which has moved me to want to know Jesus better.

animoniuos February 29th, 2008

The laws that govern the Christian Faith are the unchanging Moral Law of God, and The Law of Christ. Law, and Grace. The Law is good and right and fair. It makes sense. It's the basis of all of civilized society. Art and music and science and poetry flourish in a secure society with just and honest and humble leadership. The Law, with all of it's pragmatic value is a code of behavior. As practical as it is, it has no redemptive value whatsoever. It's the proverbial perfect horse in the sky. It must exist, and It Is Good that it exists. Although it is perfect, and cannot save, it's purpose is not exspressly to condemn, although it does passively condemn by inference. But it's not it's purpose. But to deal with the laws inability to justify, at the right time the Law of Grace came. It is a fullfillment of The Law, but something wholly different from The Law. It's incredibly simple, yet like a simple equation (E=mc2), it's application is all encompassing. Remember the Gospel; that God was in Christ Jesus, reconciling the world onto himself, not counting men's sins against them. If we love him, we will keep his commandments. And he gave a new commandment to love each other, as he loves us. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Loving your enemies, doing good to those who hate you and use you. Don't fight back in a fight. If someone wants to rob you, give them more then they ask for. Forgive people who do you wrong indefinitely. If we give mercy, we will recieve mercy. He forgives our sins, because, we forgive those people who do us wrong. This is the Law of Grace. It wholly, udderly, completely supercedes The Law. It does not contradict it, but, in practice, will always yield fruits of righteous works. A tree does not plant itself. It does not water itself. It does not make fruit of it's own valition. It yields fruit because it's a tree. One who believes what Jesus said, believe He has the power to forgive sin, believe He is God, and live his message, are by no means whatsoever under condemnation of The Law under any circumstances. All things are lawful, although not always the expedient. What sin to one is not sin to another. It is more sinful to offend a weak brothers new and delicate faith, then to partake in his weakness for the sake of gaining his trust, respect, and love. If your sin causes a strong brother to be offended, the greater sin is in the offence. With those under The Law, be as you were under The Law. To those without The Law, be as one without The Law, but not before God, being under the Law of Christ. To the strong, be strong. To the weak, be weak. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. Denying Christ in a brother and the work he is doing in him is no different than the Pharisee's accusation of Jesus casting out devils and healing the sick by the devil's power. If he can take away the branch of the Pharisees, he can take away the branch of christians who do the same. The worst, and unfortunately very common tactic used by fundamentalists and evangelicals to get around the once saved always saved doctrine is to simply infer that their brothers in Christ are simply unsaved, or examples of apostates, or as ones being given over to a reprobate mind. Why? Because a lack of keeping The Law. Not a lack of living the Law of Christ. There is no fooling the system. I speak judgement upon myself as well. I hate my sin. But I thank God in Christ Jesus that it can in no wise ever seperate me from the All Consuming Love of God. I will live under the Law of Christ by which I am saved. I will let that judge me justly.

animoniuos February 29th, 2008

Forget all this jazz. I'm startin' a blog. Animoniuos. Like anemone with a "you us" on the end. Peace

Brian March 1st, 2008

Hey Tim,
We are in the same ballpark without a doubt, however we do see things differently. Everyone gets discouraged….and is in need of "encouragment", without a doubt. Yet, if that's the reason for people's lack of obedience in doing what God expects (or at least trying), it sounds more like a cop out or an excuse to not be in subjection to the authority and commands of God. It's like, "I tried that once, and failed…so I'm discouraged and give up. Whaaaaaaa…..Hey, If it's that easy to stop a Christian from trying, perhaps the faith they have is not a biblical one after all……..remember, I'm a grace guy too….but I also expect that the grace received actually makes a person more obedient over time, and especially more desirous to do so.

This "discouragment" should never get in the way of the struggle Paul describes in Romans 7…..all can see he is frustrated and "grieved" …even "discouraged" at his own sin, but yet…..He writes a 1/3 of the New Testament with clear instruction as to "how" we shall then live (title to a Francis Schaeffer book) and what's the whole purpose of God telling us to do something that He has not equiped us to accomplish. Has not God equiped you with the ability to "not sin" in contrast to your prior state in a "flesh nature" of sin only?? As I write this, I am overhearing an ABC Special on "Porn in America"…..and featured a debate of a Pastor who's ministry revolves around aiding those entangled in this addictive industry….vs. those who produce the material. It was held at Yale University….and it paints a bleak picture as to what the "Golden Calf" a good majority of young and old alike, choose to worship is….illicite sexual perversion. This is the sad state of affairs in America. Just as in the decline of Rome before it's collapse, there were perversions of all kinds, just as we see in America….They're happening all over….and in the church too….hmmmm..why did Paul write 2 letters to the Corinthians? and I beleive the acceptance of all sexual perversions in our culture follows the same trend.

I suppose, getting back to "discouragment", the word itself reveals a real lack of faith on the behalf of the Christian. While everyone blames all the bad examples, the real example is the only example we should be following, the one's exhibited in the Scriptures both from Christ and those who encountered Him. Those who followed him were just as prone to sin as we are, but they chose to buck the current to live out a real faith. Instead, most just would rather catch an episode of their favorite illicit sexually immoral prime time tv pop show, than read their bible….or even books to strengthen their faith. Garbage in….Garbage out….the Church in Hostage, bondage to sin….and nobody's demanding that it change. Billy Graham too old to Muster a Rally, (Franklin's no Billy), Many of our Reformed Speakers also either getting too old for airtime, or don't think it's important to speak out about the spiritual condition of the "elect" of this generation, ( yeah…you know who I'm talking about) and the only ones getting airtime are so full of theological crap, it is by "design" they get air time spewing Health, Wealth, Prosperity….or your "best life Now"…..to give you the feel good fuzzies…..when we need a wake up call to stir a "Battle Cry" for Christians who have been already enabled to change the World!!…..but can't seem to get out from a focus fixated upon their own "discouragment" to overcome sin….really for a lack of struggle, lack of discipline, lack of desire, who would rather simply be addicted to sin….instead of addicted to Jesus! Your salvation was God's Git to you…..how you cooperate and interact with Him, is your gift to God! The fact that your "freedom" has been restored by the Grace and Faith God gave you…..should make all Christians desire a conscousness that is sensitive to what is pleasing and unpleasing to God….instead, time for God is pigeon holed for an hour on Sunday…..I've never seen a lack of desire for Spiritual Growth in Churches today as I do now!

Sorry Tim…..while I agree with you that discouragement is a problem with Christians, it's no excuse to abandon your call to be "all that Christ wants you to be". Hey, everyone must evaluate for themselves which idol is most important to them, pick one….their are many in our "Romaniscent" Risque Culture and either sacrifice them for what they are, and get focused on Christ, or replace Him with what is more important …porn?, smoking?, drinking?, pride?, self righteousness? etc…… with whatever addiction has a hold in your life….proving each time that it has a greater hold on you than the faith Christ gave you to change it. I'm not saying you won't sin….or ever be perfect….but if there's no difference from where you were after you were saved than before…..I can assure you that something is amiss with either with you..me …or the faith we think we have.

It is an alarming state of "affairs" within the Church today….and to say God would not make a sinner feel guilty for loving, being, living, in sin….would be the same as saying He does not love or discipline His children…..and ultimately doesn't care about the ways and means Christians live their lives….b/c He equipped them to change…..otherwise, the word repentance would never be found in the Bible.

Brian March 1st, 2008

One other thing Tim, you mentioned Christian's often feel unloved….well, there's a world out there waiting to "love them" …..much in the way the Persian Emperor from the movie (The 300) depicts……I'd rather be unloved and over taken by a God forsaken "Cult"ure then to sell out my faith just to get some love….hey plenty of love offers out there, but very few represent God's version.

I think Christianity today is quite whimpy…..We've created a "Victim" theology…..Christians in pain, hurt by the church, bruised by doctrine (or even the truth!). Steve Brown takes advantage of this without ever telling you to stop being the victim of your own creation. He's babying you……Would you like some whine with that?? It's time to take responsibility for your sin, knowing it's not all about you….or me…..it's about the Grace we've been given to "please God"….He wants all that you are….to be all that He is…..and we really can make a difference in how this plays out!!

Charles March 1st, 2008

I'm talking about us….not them. We're supposed to be repentant of our sinfulness and we aren't supposed to hide it or only expose it behind close doors, because it hides His Gospel. If our obedience and goodness was a prerequisite for sharing the Good News, then the Good News is out of reach for us and for others.

…or we can go on pretending. But we aren't fooling anyone. We're overtly self-righteous and no fun to be around. And we pretend to be happy behind forced smiles.

They need honesty to see Jesus, not Zeno or Seneca.

animoniuos March 1st, 2008

Adam sinned, and if you were there, you would have too, so you are born into and destined for an eternity of conscious, everlasting, horrible, painful, torturous, undying torment, you and 99.9% of all of humanity throughout history, unless you believe in the name of Jesus, repent of all that sin you do and change. (Because if you convert and get baptized, and you still have sin in your life, then you can't really be saved, because if you were, the Holy Spirit would be convicting you of all that sin, and you would change.) And that's not really even up to you, because you have to be chosen in order to be able to repent and believe. And that was decided at like the beginning of time and everything. Not wanting to convert? Well then, you just lost your chance. You heard the message, and you said no, so, sorry about your luck. You had your chance, and you blew it. That's right, your entire life and existence and eternity was hinged on your response. But, you were created that way. Wow. So you're looking for hope for your restless, desperate, lonely, tired broken soul? Well you've come to the right place. Say this prayer. Now your a child of God! Here, you get a Bible with a little "Re-birth Certificate" sticker on the inside with your name on it. Let's get you baptized, and then we'll show you all that God has in store for you!

Not cursing, not smoking, not drinking, not taking part in sexual sins, avoiding unedifying music, movies, books, magazines, websites, avoiding people, places or situations where you might encounter temptation, wearing appropriate clothes, jewelry, and/or general appearance issues, daily prayer, a quiet time, regular church attendance, serving in the church, tithing, a belief in the inerrantcy of scripture, diligent inductive study of scripture, defending the truth and standing up for morality, confronting the sin of other people and "exhorting them to righteousness", witnessing at every opportunity, inviting people to church, bringing people to church, leading people to the Lord, discipling them in, well, this list.

And just remember, If you're really saved, the Holy Spirit will give you the grace and power to keep up with the list, and if you're not keeping up, you're grieving the Holy Spirit and not yielding to Him, in which case he'll discipline you. But if you don't feel guilty for not keeping up with the list, or get some crazy idea that "the list doesn't matter", then you're probably just not saved, or a heretic apostate with a reprobate mind. Good Luck! And by the way, we're having a finance meeting on Tuesday. We need a new Narthex.
Wow. Yeah, THAT makes sense. Are we serious? That's how it is?! Honestly. That's absurd. Pure insanity. With sarcasm added, that is exactly the way many churchs work. And it's a lie, and manipulative, and it's a money machine.

animoniuos March 2nd, 2008

you can find this, and all my other heresies at animoniuos.blogspot.com. Feel free to come there and rail on me, as long as you're willing to have an intelligent conversation about it without accusing me of not being saved. I don't know you, you don't know me, so let's not say things we wouldn't even say to our own friends or family.

animoniuos March 2nd, 2008

If you spend all your energy concentrating on what you need to do, or not do, worrying about doing things wrong, and avoiding temptation, (which you have to literally live in a hole in America to do) you'll see sin and evil, and wickedness everywhere you go, under every rock, and behind every tree. And even if you succeed in "getting it right", you're still going to see it everywhere you look, in everyone you know, in everyone you come in contact with. If you spend all your energy concentrating on the Love of Christ, and his complete forgiveness of all your sins, past, present, and (here in lies the controversy) future, intentional, unintentional, or just plain failing, you'll see the love, mercy, and beauty of God everywhere you look, in everything you see. You'll see the Divine manifested in the most unlikely places, and in the most unlikely people. If what you're all about is things of the flesh, you're going to worry about things of the flesh. Where you will find nothing but judgement, condemnation, and death. Because the Law of Sin, which is ever present in you as long as you live, will always stand in opposition to The Law, and will grumble about it, and hold a grudge against anyone who seems to not be subjected to it themselves, while subjecting yourself to it's rule. Nothing about The Law can save, no amount of trying will justify you, or anyone else, anymore than the homeless alcoholic living under the bridge. You want to be justified? Bring that guy a sandwich, or better yet a beer, and tell him God's Love for him in terms he understands. A beer and a friend. Someone who knows that he exists, and actually thinks he's a person just like you and me. You might even enjoy yourself, and doing the Work He has given you to do all at the same time. How's that for living in the Spirit. Word

Christov March 2nd, 2008

Year of Living Biblically Guy? What happened, did I miss that podcast?

Brian March 2nd, 2008

This is exactly the example of someone going waaaaay off the other side……no grace….all truth….makes Jack a dull boy……all grace and no truth…..makes jack a null boy. Hey ominous…..Justification by Faith alone….but not by a faith which is alone!! Could've saved you alot of time and energy. And You guys thought I was waaay out there??? Hey, I'm all for an equal balance…..unlike many who want more of either side……although some of what ominous says is correct, it is quite self consumed……I'll stick with Biblical Concepts thank you…..

Charles, I agree…..btw….I've never met a "Non self-rightous person. I am one….but don't have to force a smile….I am truly happy with the grace and truth I 've been given….our self righteousness doesn't overide Christ Righteousness…..and if anything, solidifies all the more, the Biblical Jesus I embrace….who is both 100% all truth…..and 100% all Grace. Sin, truth, forgiveness and love must be confronted in one's teadhing……choosing to teach a singular Gospel point….ie Grace at the expense of teaching the others is presenting an unbiblical Jesus. But….alas….we're all under Grace…..but I'd call that a sin of stubborn carelessness….intentionally presented as a reaction to the other extreme…. since it amounts to a caricature of God…..one with no back bone, one who will NOT judge….we are left with a whimpy Jesus who is accepting of all (even still in their sin…..as writers responding that they "get" Grace…still live in an abhorant life-style. According to these folks….my self righteousness…..is the equivelent to someone living out a daily gay lifestyle….and claiming to have received the grace of God. Since we are ALL self-righteous……I guess no one's in the position to honestly "correct me on this…..but I sure know the Bible makes certain distinctions about sin…..unlike Brown and Company.

animoniuos March 3rd, 2008

If I have said anything unbiblical, I would be more than willing to aquiesce if you would give me a biblical arguement concerning my biblical arguements. If you feel I have misinterpreted Romans 7 and Romans 8, or Justification by Faith in general, lets discus it using biblical text. If I am way out in left field, convince me with scripture that I am wrong in no uncertian terms. Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now make perfect by the flesh? Convince me, through Holy Scripture, that Justification by Faith is anything other than that. Paul's percecution of believers in his early career was because they did not adhere to The Law. They got this crazy idea that they were no longer in bondage to The Law. Paul was deeply religious, zealous for the Jewish Law, and perececuted them for it. His explanation of the Law of Grace is what Christianity is based on. The time he spends on works are disclaimers so that people won't miss the point. As long as you live nothing you do in your flesh will justify you before God anymore than anyone else. If this offends you, then it is the Gospel that you are offended by.

Charles March 3rd, 2008

Not measuring up to the teaching but striving without despair or anxiety….in public….before pagans….is the testimony He would like to see more.

Instead, we would prefer to 'appear' cleaned up, prayed up, victorious over all the really bad sins and only working on the small unmentionable ones….as a testimony that 'you too can be as stiff and stoic as me.' Jesus is there in words only.

That critique isn't a denial of truth. I am 100% for truth and 100% for grace….which means you and I both have some fessing up….to even unbelievers. Truth is what you run up against when you are wrong and grace is what you need to get back up without defeat.

People would like to see that more, instead of micromanaging other people's sins.

The problem is that it is too risky for us. Truth be told, we are more concerned about image and reputation than we are about the least of these.

That is why traditional Christianity has lost its footing and now has walls closing in….not necessarily all Satan. Some of it was brought on by us….and it is a good thing. It turns out we weren't that serious about our Bible's after all. If we were, we wouldn't have to deal with as much as we currently deal with.

But it is never too late and God wastes nothing. There's alot of weird stuff going on out there in the church, but there's also alot of fresh air…much needed fresh air, that is very biblical, different from traditional Christianity, and has power.

animoniuos March 3rd, 2008

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written "Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." But that no man be justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, "The just shall live by faith." And the law is not faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Galatians 3:10-12. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 4:21. So this Paul says of himself: But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 4:28. Paul continues, Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace. 5:5. This is the Gospel. This is the power of God by which all with Faith in Him recieve an inheritance of Eternal Life. Not by works, for to lean on that is death, and you have fallen from grace. For brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not that liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Who is your neighbour?

Erik March 3rd, 2008

Christov wrote…

Year of Living Biblically Guy? What happened, did I miss that podcast?

It had to be rescheduled. Steve was unexpectedly called out of town and we had to do a re-air. The Year of Living Biblically Guy is now scheduled for April 11.

BTW. I'm experiencing deep gratitude that somebody actually used the comments to this post as they were intended. Thanks Christov!

animoniuos March 3rd, 2008

okay okay okay. I'm done.

Erik March 3rd, 2008

okay okay okay. I'm done.

I don't mind if you guys discuss stuff. I'm happy to see good conversation on the site. Maybe over on the Three Free Sins! post on the Old White Guy Blog (or any others that fit what yous guys are talking about).

Point being, in a perfect world, this post's comments should be used for questions or comments about upcoming shows. I know we don't live in a perfect world, but hey…cut a guy some slack.

Tim March 3rd, 2008

Well hold on now Brian, Jesus specifically told us that they would know we are Christians by our Love. How can the world offer more love than the church and there not be something seriously wrong?

Also there's a Hebrews passage that specifcally says that we "don't have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses." It sure sounds like you are unable to sympathize with weaknesses…and that puts a pretty unbiblical basis underneath your ideas. Ideas about people trying harder or that it's "faith alone but faith doesn't stand alone." That's just semantics. Either salvation is a free gift bestowed upon us by our Father, or it's earned; there isn't a fancy way to tap dance in between the 2.

Again it comes down to how you view sin. Either you can act sinless or you can't. Either there's a big enough list of things to avoid that you remember them all and never slip up, or sin overwhelmes you to the point where you actually need a savior day in and day out. I've never understood the whole paradigm of "grace get's you saved, but now you've got to earn it." Either God's grace is really "enough" or it isn't. And if it really is, then our actions do not matter, because every action is tainted here on this earth and needs to be redeemed.

It's not that I underestimate the seriousness of sin, I think that you do. I think that you underestimate how it permeates every single decision we make. I think you underestimate the depths of our depravity. I don't believe that the most noble act a christian could perform would stand up to the holiness of God. It still would have the scent of selfishness, the stench of pride and ego. What you are suggesting is that we can act in such a way that we don't need redemption. When you get past that, and start to see that every single second is in need of the redemption of Jesus, you begin to think kindly on others, and sympathize with their weaknesses.

Charles March 3rd, 2008

That was perfect Tim.

I have nothing to add.

Charles March 3rd, 2008

…except that last post.

That was so good.

Brian March 4th, 2008

Ok TIm, if you define love as "total acceptance and without the chance for rejection" then, you are certainly NOT talking about the Love of God. Is it not possible to think you have the Grace of God and truly "not" have it?? Those in Mathew 7 sure thought they did. Surely many who remain "actionless" after walking an isle, praying a prayer, raising a hand, having tasted the sweeet Grace of which you describe, will also one day be quite disappointed. While God is love, He also serves Justice, He chose to curse man for his original sin, also reserves the right to hate, throw whomever He desires into Hell, and ofcourse hates sin. It is the love and passion for serving God that marks the Christian….put there by God. That same love that told His disciples to shake the dust off their feet toward those who rejected listening, who teaches not to throw pearls before swine, that cursed the pharisees. Is this the love and Grace from which you refer?? Then, you're grasping a more full and complete biblical understanding that God's love has the tendancy to be reserved for His choosing, disciplines those He loves, can lavish Grace on whoever He so desires….etc.

The real danger of teaching Neo Grace 'lies" in what you said about Grace…..if grace is really enough….then "actions do not matter"????? Oh really?? This is pure heresy. The belief that actions don't matter after one has been bestowed upon by the Grace of God is pure antinomianism. Tim, are you really sticking with what you said?? I'll give you plenty of time and grace to reconsider ….but I do agree with your conclusion….if you think Grace must not accompanied by good works (James) (actions) or makes manifest the power of God through you to cause you to work and will to the Glory of God! Does not God cause Christians to become more Holy over time through sanctification??or do you suppose these resulting "actions" don't matter there either?? Try not to place God in a Neo grace Box so big that it's conclusions go beyond that of what is biblical. ..If you "idolize" the "gift of Grace" long enough, I can see how one can arrive at this conclusion that actions don't matter anymore……that's the same thing as saying "sin" doesn't matter anymore. Let's just nullify and redefine "sin" and "righteousness" altogether so that no one has even a hint of desire to want to please Christ with one's life?? What do we do Tim, with I John 1:9, If we confess our sins….etc??)

It does appear evident that "truth" really does seem to matter when it comes to describing "grace". Isn't the "action" of contrasting what others say precisely" doing" exaclty what ….errr…."doesn't really matter anyway"??…or more so a reasoning such that only "your" version of grace applies??? I think what you stated is just as desirous of wanting to be "righteous" in what you said…..yet denying the whole while there is any "ability" to be truly "righteous"…..or did you mean to actually qualify your own words….ie that bit about sin and,

"how it permeates every single decision we make. I think you underestimate the depths of our depravity. I don